Does evil exist?

Gatekeeper said:
If so, what is it?
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IMO, a lack of wisdom and/or earnestness to be a good person. An evil person allows him or herself to be guided by motivations in such a way that is destructive or unsupportive of life-nourishing values. Evil is vice.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
An image of pure evil!
 

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Ah yes tao, hit the nail on the head, or turned the screw correctly. Perfect example, evil is a man made construct that can appear when one 'turns' away from G!d or eternal good.
 
wil said:
Ah yes tao, hit the nail on the head, or turned the screw correctly. Perfect example, evil is a man made construct that can appear when one 'turns' away from G!d or eternal good.
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Maybe. You could, using the pages of history as the argument, equally claim that god is a man made evil. Just how many people, yes real live, loving feeling people - not just numbers, have experienced the 'love' of god as murder, maiming, rape and theft? Religions perhaps dwell on evil because in truth they are saturated with it.
 
Eudaimonist said:
IMO, a lack of wisdom and/or earnestness to be a good person. An evil person allows him or herself to be guided by motivations in such a way that is destructive or unsupportive of life-nourishing values. Evil is vice.


eudaimonia,

Mark
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If evil is in fact vice (Lack of wisdom) then what is it that makes it become so unbearable? Is it evil itself, or the consequences of? Evil is such a relative term, so I'm not at all certain it exists at all. If it is anything, I'll agree that it is lack of wisdom, though.

What most people complain about when it comes to evil, are the consequences of. Even so, isn't it written that God corrects those He loves?

What I'm suggesting is that it is Gods correction of our unwise/evil lifestyles that we get so bent out of shape about. Many of us kick and scream and curse these consequences of every step of the way, so does this mean that we are in essence cursing God when we do this?

I really don't think it is evil that makes us and others suffer, but rather it is God's correction of our foolish and unwise lifestyles.

GK
 
Saltmeister said:
Vice . . . this is what you get when you take things literally: a tool used to clamp things down in wood-work!

If that isn't evil, I don't know what is.
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just add vice.....how many words can you think of with 'vice' in them? There are patterns if you want to find them, none if you do not. I'm off to drink (probably a lot of) whisky..... till next time.... all hail the invisible everything :rolleyes:
 
Tao_Equus said:
The invisible everything :rolleyes:
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........

Makes Himself evident in creation, yet many refuse to see His influence in our lives.

You see, we live in a perfect system of law and consequence which our Creator has set in place. He is our Heavenly Father after all. Just as parents correct their children when they do wrong, God corrects us when we do wrong. I'm of the mind that His corrections are the natural consequences we experience when we act in a manner contrary to His instructions which is “sin”. There is great wisdom in the way our world works. This system of law and consequence helps us learn, and grow, and develop as a collective species.

The thing is, we reap what we sow (Collectively). Not only does the individual who sins pay for those sins, but others do as well. It might seem unjust and unfair, but God isn't the one who is sinning - We are. God merely allows us to do things that we know will harm us and/or others. He allows us to live on our terms, which I find to be a true blessing regardless of the hardships we endure when others force their will upon our own.

The truth is that we are in this life together, so the sooner we realize and start learning from our mistakes and from the mistakes of others, the sooner we (As a species) can begin the healing process (Collectively).

When one suffers we all suffer, and that is the reality of it all. Chain events, snowball effects and so forth make it of the utmost importance that we ourselves change, and help lead others to do the same if only by being an example.

Evil (Calamity) or that which we find unpleasant in life can be a great asset to us if and when we are wise enough to learn from its effects. I believe the effects, or rather the correction taking place is God's hand.

Moral evils are relative, so I'm not at all certain that there is such a thing. There is certainly things we find unpleasant that others do, however. Sin obviously causes suffering in us and in others, but isn't it God who Created all things, and who corrects us when we do wrong? It is a collective correction, as we are ultimately one body. It's high time we realize this.

I view evil (Calamity) to be a necessary reality in life. If we can be mindful enough to learn from it, we will come to great understanding. Not only that, but one cannot be perfect, or complete without knowing (First hand) what evil entails. I'm sure that God grieves because of how wicked we have become, but I'm also certain that He knows what the human race needs - God knows best.

The problem is that the world is full of fools. We all know that when we act contrary to Gods laws and principles that it causes not only us, but also others to suffer. Yet, we continue to repeat the same things over and again. This is why we need to apply ourselves to understanding, and then apply that understanding in life, which is wisdom.

No one likes to think themselves a fool, but when all is said and done, a fool is one who never learns from their mistakes, nor from the mistakes of others. A fool is doomed to repeat over and over the same mistakes, just as a fool will not look to others for understanding. Why? Because a fool refuses to heed correction in any form. Whether the correction comes from natural consequence, personal afflictions, or from watching others suffer, a fool will not apply him/herself to understanding or to application.

Our every action has a consequence - Be it a pleasant one, or an unpleasant one. It is written that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. We need to have a reverence for life, for God, and to understand that when we live contrary to His will, that there will be consequences.

We all reap what we sow in one manner or another. IF we are wise, and use such corrections to our benefit, learning and growing from them, we will become that which God intended. I believe that all things were created by God, and that God corrects those He loves, which is EVERYONE. That's why we suffer when it comes to sinning. He has given us His instructions for guidance, so we might avoid evil/calamity, but if we fail to heed His instructions, He goes a step further and corrects us through the natural laws He has set in place.

I don't actually believe in "evil" as most use the term. I view life in terms of wise and unwise - Pleasant and unpleasant. Good and Evil are relative terms, and they differ from person to person. The reality is that when most use the terms good and evil, they are actually referring to what they like and don't like.

Just something to chew on,

GK
 
Continued ....

I have allowed myself to struggle with life, and with the world we live in more than I like to admit. Even so, I've come to the point where I can now see benefits and God in everything, including evil (Calamity). What I'm suggesting is that we can use evil to benefit us as individuals and as a species. I'm not suggesting that we do evil things, or commit evil acts. What I'm suggesting is that it is our mindfulness of evil (Wrongdoing?) and the effects/consequences thereof, that actually help us grow. These consequences are “natural corrections” that take place as a result of an unwise lifestyle.

It's much like when we correct our children. When our children disobey us, we correct them. This is similar to how life works. We live on an earth where natural law governs our reality. Now, I'm a religious man, so I'm going to call living contrary to the laws set in place evil and/or sin. When we sin, or rather commit an evil (Unwise) act we and/or others experience an unpleasant consequence.

Evil can certainly leave a bad taste in our mouths, but I'm of the mind that it is not evil itself that we find so unbearable, but rather the consequences of. It is our dissatisfaction of these unpleasant consequences that cause us to become bitter when evil (Calamity) befalls us. We become bitter when the ones we love, and even those we do not know suffer in life. BUT, for some, it is our dissatisfaction that moves us to change our realities. Much of the unpleasantness of life stems from our own actions (sins), so there is much we can do to change.

We as a species spend far too much energy cursing evil and becoming bitter, when we should be learning from it. If we are not mindful of the lesson at hand, we miss an opportunity to grow. I have come to the point where I no longer kick and scream and curse about the evils in the world, but rather I allow them to make me stronger, and help me grow in wisdom. Everything in life serves a purpose [EVERYTHING]. This includes evil as well.

Like I said, I'm a religious man, so I believe in God. God has given us His instructions in scripture. His instructions (When followed) help to keep us from harm - Just as a parent will instruct their children in attempt to keep them from harm.

I think many Atheists as well as Christians fail to realize the purpose behind the instructions given to us in scripture. I have come to understand that they were given for our benefit. What benefit can they truly be if we view them only as demands, and if we do not understand why they were given in the first place?

Are we to blindly follow and adhere to them without understanding why they were given, or should we dig deeper in attempt to better understand how they can help us as individuals and as a peoples?

I am a firm believer that our attitudes effect our motivation when it comes to following God's instructions. If we view them to be one sided, existing only because we 'think' God demands us to live by them, we will not live by them in the manner we ought to. They were not given to limit us in any way, but rather they were given for our own good.

God is our life coach (So to speak) His play book (Scripture) is there to instruct us in the ways of righteousness. It was inspired and breathed out by Him, so we might come to trust Him and learn how to win this game called life. Christ lived according to God's instructions flawlessly, and it was through His life that He showed us how to win.

"Not my will, but thy will be done."

Whether one believes in God [As a being] or not makes little difference in the grand scheme of things. We are most certainly corrected for our unwise lifestyles, just as we are "blessed" when we are wise.

There is most certainly a force greater than ourselves, leading us towards a more perfect world, but we must first recognize the corrections taking place and the power of this "force". We then need to heed those corrections, so that this more perfect world will become a reality for mankind.

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they [we] are without excuse.

Romans 1:19-20 (ESV)


GK
 
Sitting here after/between drams of white n mckay n coke, forced to communicate without a common tongue {polski/eniburgo/liethski} i asked of my gf's family....... well thats another story...

Evil is not a small thing. Its not about mild resentment or the pretty broad spectrum of personal differences that manifest within a famillial grouping, to this day the most substantial relationship grouping we are likely to encounter. Forgive yourself, most of those crass prats you know think about as much of you as you do of them, if they think at all. Why waste energy on thinking about negatives? Evil only ever has the power you give it. Fixate it it is there. Life is a wonderous beautiful journey with answers that are only at their best possibilities. Accept that and see just how beautifull our everything is.
 
Evil is a label that we imbigue with power. It's painful/loathed because we attach those feelings with the label. Only the actions deemable evil exist themselves, I don't see evil as it's own essence. Just a label.

Looking at it another way, ignorance can give rise to a whole range of unwanted feelings/actions, many we would deem bad like harming others. Evil may be an effect of ignorance. (Trying to sound buddhist here lol)
 
The def I go by is: those who cause others harm
(suffering, pain, death...you know...that kind of stuff)
And while doing it, enjoy it.
Then there is the senseless evil which doesn't do such things for the joy of it, but just does it like an automaton...mindlessly.
 
Gatekeeper said:
If so, what is it?
Click to expand...

Evil exists because there is good. The only way TO define evil is if there is good. Evil is simply the obstruction of good. But then, we now have to define what is good.

Since we are in the Belief and Spirituality forum, and not the Christian forum, we will have to start with something more universal to most religions and philosophies, namely The Golden Rule, or in other words, the ethics of reciprocity. The general form of this is: 'Do to others what you would like to be done to you'.

So then it becomes a matter of respect and consideration for one another. A lack thereof is what constitutes evil.
 
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My, my, my, my, people actually trying to think. It never ceases to amaze me how we endeavor to push out meager little minds beyond that which they are capable of enduring. (I know some of you are better adapted than that, but permit me, please. It's the mood I'm in.)

'Evil' exists, but not as how the majority of the world understand it. Permit me to offer an explanation. First, however, we must accept two axioms (Just for the fun of it)... please, trust me! First, their is an order to the universe(s) which may have been structured by an entity of which we have only a very general knowledge, and second, that Dondi is correct in his assumption that we are involved in a world of dualities! EQUAL AND OPPOSITE!

Being in a society which 'claims' to be Judo-Christian, allow me to refer to an ancient cult myth; Genesis. That entity we call, G-d, created a perfect plane of existence we call, The Garden (or Eden). Everything was as planned including the creation of Adam and Eve. It was magnificant..... until!

Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more crafty than any other wild animal that the Lord G-d had made." ('nough said.) This 'creature' could walk, talk, obviously think and act in an alluring manner, and its punishment at the fall was to crawl on its belly for.... included in the garden were certain angels that we will shortly discuss.

More fundamentalist minds than my own tell us that the serpent was Satan, (and I write the name with some trepidation). I say, NOT; and I will explain in just a moment, patience please. The fact that we must accept from this ancient religious legend is that somehow, Evil, found its way into G-d's garden, into 'perfection', and it had the power to corrupt it! The entity, G-d could not (or would not) prevent it.

Lucifer; an obsession with mankind. Let's go back even further than the garden to the words of Ezekiel; 28:11B.

"You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of G-d; and every precious stone was your covering..." Indeed, the creation of the highest, most powerful Arch Angel is spoken of again in Isaiah; 14:12, and here I will quote from some of the oldest manuscripts available to mankind.

"O, Lucifer, Son of the morning; O Day Star (a title now given over to Jesus in Christian doctrine) Son of Dawn (a Godess of some importance in ancient worship)..." I will submit that we have here only the slightest knowledge of the power and standing of the Arch Angel, Lucifer. In fact, so highly distinguished was this Angel that the ancients named the planet Venus (when it rose as the morning 'star',) Lucifer!

Perfection second only to G-d, and yet... think about it, something corrupted even that creation. Evil slipped into the realm of G-d's 'making' and turned its mind from good to 'bad', tempted Lucifer just as it had tempted man in the Garden of God. An entity that had the power, the strength, to turn G-d's intent to its own will! An entity unseen, unknown, and incomprehensible (if that is even a word).

Of course, we have much in common with the ancients. We place man as his own 'evil', many who consider themselves religious, or spiritual in nature, blame everything 'evil' on Satan. I think we should stop this nonsense. Lucifer is as much a victim as we are. Tempted by ( if we dare to say it, think it) the duality of G-d, equal and opposite, EVIL, whose nature is as unknowable and possibly even as omnipotent, as the entity we call, Creator!

I think, if I were me, I'd leave it alone. I really don't think I want to discover what it is that goes bump in the night... it sounds awfully big!

Victor G
 
Namaste all,

interesting question.

as near as i can tell evil exists only in the minds of humans, i.e. evil, per se, is an idea or a method of categorizing events within our world system that are contrary to our current philosophical, moral or ethical paradigm. should our paradigm be different our view of and understanding of evil would be different as well.

many beings and indeed a great many religious paths personify aspects of reality and even ideas and Evil is probably one of the more common ones that can be found throughout all ethnicities and religious groups.

one gets a sense of a giant slide rule with evil at one end and good at the other and events within the multiverse are viewed in relation to the slide rule. in relation to personal considerations it is often the case that a being engages in a singular action (deemed evil) and is thereby forever labeled by that action. no being, that i am aware of, is acurately characterized in such a manner, there are many different aspects to a person even if, by and large, their actions upon the world stage are viewed as negative.

metta,

~v
 
I think evil can be seen as an objective reality. It can certainly be created as an objective reality. One of the illustration we find in Buddhism is about the evil of interfering with good.

The example of stopping the expression of Buddha nature by interfering with an act of compassion comes to mind. While we could see this as part of a karmic process for the person who stood in the way, I think it can also be seen as having an objective and tangible aspect in terms of an actual lost opportunity for compassion as well as a loss of the benefit that would have followed to the recipient of the compassion.

I think the subjectivizing of evil has the potential to offer a very incomplete picture of its actual dimensions within evolving worlds.
 
i am reminded of an interchange in Kung Fu Panda....:cool:

"Shifu: Master! I have... it's very bad news!

Oogway: Ah, Shifu. There is just news. There is no good or bad.

Shifu: Master, your vision. Your vision was right! Tai-Lung has broken out of prison! He's on his way!

[pause]

Oogway: That *is* bad news.


I think we cannot deny evil or bad exists...

i could paint a thousand pictures right here

*a mother forced to watch her recent newborn drawing its lasts breath, as she cannot produce milk for she is starving herself...

*women gang raped by soldiers, "letting off some steam" after conquering a village

*a boy forced to watch another killed, as he refuses to 'step into his manhood"

*a man beaten, robbed, and nearly dead, passed by several "passer bys"
as they do not have time to stop, and he is not worthy of their attention anyway.



does evil exist? i say yes!
do we know its cause? is it lack of good....is it meant to be part of our experience here? does "free will" factor in, and where...? does God exist, and allow it?
questions that haunt me, (and have for years)

the only answer i am sure of, is that i am to do good and resist/stand against evil, at every possible opportunity set before me...
 
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