"This place is dangerous for trying to find truth"

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Originally Posted by I, Brian
My first reaction reading Avi's opening post was to feel like bantering the point.

Then I felt sad for FaithfulServant - she's been a part of this community for a long time, and I don't like to see her feeling upset. She's put up with a lot on these forums, and generally carried herself with dignity and refrain, even though she knows of all the people here, she represents a set of beliefs that - in being called "fundamentalist" are easily viewed with scorn and derision, rather than viewed as "fundamental".
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I agree Brian, that is why after I wrote the OP, I later wrote this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Avi
By the way, I also meant to add that I am not trying to be critical of Faithfulservant in the title and OP. I know that she is very sensitive and takes criticism very seriously.

I think this issue is one which faces "conservatives" and "reformers" of all traditions. How many Orthodox Jews (OJ) do you see posting in this forum ? Even though BB is much more observant than myself, in my view, his ideas are much more progressive than the OJs that I know and even most of the Conservative Jews. I think it might be common amongst "conservative" religious folks to find this place "dangerous".
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So, what I was trying to explain was that my comments were not bantering FaithfulServant, they were relating the differences between "conservatives" and "reformers". I hope FS was not offended.


Quote:
Quote - Brian:
And then I wonder, who is actually doing the questioning here? Is FF questioning someone else's faith and trying to persuade them to accept their own opinions?

Is Avi questioning someone else's faith and trying to persuade us to accept their own opinions?
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I am sorry, but I am going to have to disagree with you here, Brian. In what possible sense can you interpret my remarks to be questioning anyone's faith ? I have been very consistent in showing my respect to people of all faiths. Are you saying that I should not raise questions about other peoples posts if I have questions ? That is all I did in the OP. I appreciate your trying to be supportive of FS comments, but please do not distort my comments to do that !! (Challenging authority is my middle name !!).
 
Avi said:
I am sorry, but I am going to have to disagree with you here, Brian. In what possible sense can you interpret my remarks to be questioning anyone's faith ? I have been very consistent in showing my respect to people of all faiths. Are you saying that I should not raise questions about other peoples posts if I have questions ? That is all I did in the OP. I appreciate your trying to be supportive of FS comments, but please do not distort my comments to do that !! (Challenging authority is my middle name !!).
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Avi, I think Brian was talking about the rest of us here.
 
I ended up just writing a rambling post, just sharing thoughts, asking questions, rather than anything else. Am trying not to post tired in future. :)
 
I think Chris has it about right. Any idea that challenges your assumptions/beliefs is a dangerous one to that investment.

FS has on more than one occasion shown herself as capable as any in using a line or two that is written only to provoke or hit back. So she is sensitive....are not we all? People here are just people. They have their good days and bad days and while we can sympathise when we know we are not mind readers. Fundamentalist views deserve to be challenged. Many people legitimately believe them to be not only illogical but dangerous to the convert and society as a whole. Such views deserve to be heard and discussed with no censure. I think that this place is dangerous to FS for trying to find the truth she wants to find....but over 99% of the global population reject that truth as a delusion. Is this place a good place to look for more comprhensive and exacting truths? I think its as good a place as any.
 
Ludvig said:
Excuse the technical glitch here folks :eek:.
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Sometimes the system causes a post to duplicate. It has happened to me twice and has to do with the network. Also, you may post twice in a row if you want.
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
I think that FS was 100% correct. Belief creates hope. Rationality destroys belief, and with it hope. Truth lies in the utter destruction of hope, but nobody wants that. I screwed up. I wanted something rational to base my belief on. When I kicked all the fictional underpinnings out from under my belief-programming the whole thing collapsed and turned into dust. If you want to keep your hope don't question your belief. Just live it, don't think about it because I'm telling you that there is no Reason underlying belief. So STFU and do what you're told. Be a good little lemming, and forget about all those questions.

OTOH, you could cultivate the courage to look directly at the Truth. It hurts like hell, it leaves you no place to hide, no comfort, no security, no ultimate answers... but at least it's honest.

Chris
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Namaste Chris,

I thank you for your post but I just don't get it. It is like when I quit voting for the lesser of two evils. I began only voting for someone I wanted to win, even if they didn't have a chance. It was freeing.

For me an irrational belief creates a false hope. Now there are plenty that say I walk around with rose colored glasses. I've got to continue questioning my belief, right to the core. And it is the use of the principles and the results that give me a knowing. I don't want hope. I want truth.

Another one, my sister went blind from Diabetes, she has since made her transition. But I was with my wife and mother in the hospital room when the Doctor came in and told her that she would experience total blindness for a short period of time but would slowly regain her sight over the following months. Then he asked to see us in the hall and told us that she would never see again. That false hope was/is useless. My sister needed to learn to live with her condition and needed to do it fast as she lived on her own, not have some idiot gutless MD give her false hope.
 
wil said:
I forgot to add... I do believe there are different truths for each of us. And what is irrational to me could be rational to you and vice versa.
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So if I point out that there is a quart of milk on the table, it might be true for me but not for you?

If truth is true, it doesn't need to be defended nor does anyone need to make it so a part of their sense of self that they feel attacked if the concept is questioned or ridiculed.

Actuality is really quite amazing if viewed apart from all beliefs about it.
 
Tao_Equus said:
I think Chris has it about right. Any idea that challenges your assumptions/beliefs is a dangerous one to that investment.

FS has on more than one occasion shown herself as capable as any in using a line or two that is written only to provoke or hit back. So she is sensitive....are not we all? People here are just people. They have their good days and bad days and while we can sympathise when we know we are not mind readers. Fundamentalist views deserve to be challenged. Many people legitimately believe them to be not only illogical but dangerous to the convert and society as a whole. Such views deserve to be heard and discussed with no censure. I think that this place is dangerous to FS for trying to find the truth she wants to find....but over 99% of the global population reject that truth as a delusion. Is this place a good place to look for more comprhensive and exacting truths? I think its as good a place as any.
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Ahh.. but I never claimed to be here to find truth.. tao, I already have it. I am here simply to help others in finding the same thing.. but under the radar of course :) Ive never denied that.

and yes if you continually kick a puppy.. it will bite back on occasion. but puppies are also quick to forgive.
 
The truth - a couple of people in this thread claim to know what it is. One difficulty here is that I've met many people who claimed to know the truth, and they all said different things. So only one of them (at most) could have been right.

One simple thing about the human condition is that we don't know what's going on. We can make speculative guesses but we will never know. If we really take a hard look at life and death the terrible truth is that nothing makes any sense and we have to exist in ignorance.

Now that is hard to face isn't it? To live the best life you can with no certainty that it really counts for anything? Remember how Christ ended his days, hanging on the cross wondering where his God was. Not knowing is an integral part of the human story.
 
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the breeze said:
The truth - a couple of people in this thread claim to know what it is. One difficulty here is that I've met many people who claimed to know the truth, and they all said different things. So only one of them (at most) could have been right.

One simple thing about the human condition is that we don't know what's going on. We can make speculative guesses but we will never know. If we really take a hard look at life and death the terrible truth is that nothing makes any sense and we have to exist in ignorance.

Now that is hard to face isn't it? To live the best life you can with no certainty that it really counts for anything? Remember how Christ ended his days, hanging on the cross wondering where his God was. Not knowing is an integral part of the human story.
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We'll see right? I will continue in my Truth and you continue in yours and in the end we'll see. No need to hate each other for their truth. Its not in me to hate anyone anymore.. sometimes its hard to love people but I could never hate. and I will promise as I walk in my truth to try to love you to the best of my ability because thats what my Truth wants me to do.
 
Paladin said:
So if I point out that there is a quart of milk on the table, it might be true for me but not for you?

If truth is true, it doesn't need to be defended nor does anyone need to make it so a part of their sense of self that they feel attacked if the concept is questioned or ridiculed.

Actuality is really quite amazing if viewed apart from all beliefs about it.
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Namaste Paladin,

Now your example is different from discussing the intracies of religious belief, but you knew that. But just for humor sake...

I just looked at all the tables I could find and didn't find a quart of milk.

If I was expecting whole milk and you put skim milk on the table....it wouldn't be milk to me.

If I was looking to feed my baby, it wouldn't be milk to her, it wouldn't be milk she could utilize.

If I spoke only spoke one dialect of Chinese and wanted milk and heard you it may be truth but it would be useless to me...and vice versa.

I guess it matters what is is.

We can easily see how many denominations of Christians there are, and they are all read and disagreeing over the same texts. Each of us has a different life and differing perspectives hence what you see one way I see differently.
 
Wil said:
I just looked at all the tables I could find and didn't find a quart of milk.
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Got Milk? This carton has a picture on the back. Hey, I know this person its.....
 
wil said:
Namaste Paladin,

Now your example is different from discussing the intracies of religious belief, but you knew that. But just for humor sake...

I just looked at all the tables I could find and didn't find a quart of milk.

If I was expecting whole milk and you put skim milk on the table....it wouldn't be milk to me.

If I was looking to feed my baby, it wouldn't be milk to her, it wouldn't be milk she could utilize.

If I spoke only spoke one dialect of Chinese and wanted milk and heard you it may be truth but it would be useless to me...and vice versa.

I guess it matters what is is.

We can easily see how many denominations of Christians there are, and they are all read and disagreeing over the same texts. Each of us has a different life and differing perspectives hence what you see one way I see differently.
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Yeah pointing out an obvious relativist fallacy is moot, but my point was bigger than that. You see, the word "truth" is bandied about so much it has ceased to have any real meaning of itself. Of course words are like that. Much like the pretend world nearly all of us inhabit each one related but eerily separate.
I suspect if there is anything in danger it is the fragile web each of us spins around our awareness.
 
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