Why can't christians speak 'normal'?

[Dogbrain]

Reminds me of this guy who announced that God told him he was going to marry my older sister.

I knew another fellow... Every few couple of weeks or days he had a revelation about a different girl

I also knew a couple who got married as a result of a third party telling them it was God's will.

I also had a friend that knew a woman who was a burn victim, and she told him God had told her they should get married...however he felt that God had told him if he served well and stayed clean, that he would be rewarded with a beautiful wife.

There are some common points here.

1: All about gender-preference-appropriate companionship.
2: All were centered around some sort of "reward" in this life in return for supposed obedience to God in this life.
3: None seem to have heeded St. John's admonition to "test the spirits" (I John 4:1).

My memory is imperfect, but I recall little in Scripture regarding God telling people that they should enter into relationships.

Funny thing, though, most of these "God told me" matters seem to have issues #2 and #3 involved in them.

 

[Dream]

Dogbrain,

1: All about gender-preference-appropriate companionship.

That is considered a difficult, one-time decision. If you expected direct guidance on anything it would be that. That's why its the most common thing to pray for guidance deciding.

2: All were centered around some sort of "reward" in this life in return for supposed obedience to God in this life.

Debatable. It would seem so.

3: None seem to have heeded St. John's admonition to "test the spirits" (I John 4:1).

It depends on what you think testing the spirits means. Each one surely prayed about it and tried to make sure, because it was an important decision.

My memory is imperfect, but I recall little in Scripture regarding God telling people that they should enter into relationships.

These were not just relationships. These were marriages.

Funny thing, though, most of these "God told me" matters seem to have issues #2 and #3 involved in them.

Are you suggesting that asking for guidance is selfish? What test would you suggest to test the spirits, and in what way is that not asking for guidance?

 

[nativeastral]

Define normal.

an angel quote etched on a tombstone or standing stone somewhere near you!

 

[nativeastral]

I think all of these "catch phrases" are simply a by-product of "religion." They matter to those who choose "religion" as their assurance to themselves that God likes them, and the catch phrases serve to remind them that this is, in their opinion, so. Any "in group" whether religious, civic or simply social, develops its "lingo." It is a means by which the members of that "in group" identify each other, so there is a second pusrpose for the "catch phrases."

Jai Ram
Art

you bring up the importance of language in creating a reality which implicates thought as well as imagination [therefore concept /sharing/experience] in what heideggar called the 'hermeneutic circle' of any shared society within a society.
or maybe its all a Thought-terminating cliché - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but yes l agree with you Art, that bonding of shared identity via the common idioms/spiritual vernacular is powerful stuff

 

[Gatekeeper]

No Offense Intended

Interesting article here,

Bald Hills Presbyterian - WHY CAN'T CHRISTIANS SPEAK 'NORMAL'?

which echoes some of my own views about Christian who are always going on about "God Told me" this or that cause I am so holy

G2G, God spoke unto me in a holy vision. I was told that I am filled with the anointing. God spoke unto me in that vision these words:

"Go unto the world and preach the gospel thou hast received; do so that others might come to know the fullness of thy creator. Thou cup runneth over, the Holy spirit is manifest unto you. Take heed therefore, awaken from thy sleep, and know that I Am He."

Which translates into this:

Wake up and share the goodness that has filled you! Extend towards others the love you have received, that others might come to know the truth of God; that He is love.

Yup, church lingo is a lot like "Jive" or any other type of language ... it takes a while to pick it up, but once you get into the groove, you're pretty much good to go.

Btw, the OP be off the hook, yo! Fo rizzle, ya heard!!

In all seriousness, does it really matter how others speak? Is it really that offensive? Give dem type of Christians a break will ya ... It's simply how many have been conditioned.

GK

 

[Saltmeister]

Re: No Offense Intended

In all seriousness, does it really matter how others speak? Is it really that offensive? Give dem type of Christians a break will ya ... It's simply how many have been conditioned.

If it's a part of what it means to be a part of "the group" then yes. It may be exciting at first to hear, speak and utter this "God Talk" and Religionese, but after a while it not only becomes tiring, but annoying because it's as if you can't contribute unless you speak the God-Talk or Religionese. When you stop speaking that coded language you're no longer a team player but a lurker.

I suppose this is what makes one ask what the most important thing is in religion. Is it community, or is it when we agree on the same tenets, speak the same coded language or chant the same slogans? I believe community is the most important thing. Christianity should not have ideas, tenets, words or slogans as its foundation but people. As 1 Peter 2 says, we are to come as "living stones" to form God's spiritual temple. The living soul or psyche of a religion is not in tenets, words or slogans, but people because that is where the life is.

But speaking of coded languages, it reminds me of the story of the Tower of Babel, where God confused the languages of the people building the tower. I think it's an important lesson that God doesn't want spirituality to be driven by "building structures" to reach into heaven, whether that is with physical bricks and mortar or with words, tenets and slogans. God wants people, hearts and minds.

We speak different languages but no single language is a way of connecting with God. No language is more special than another. Each language is just a way of expressing ideas and feelings that are agnostic of or independent to linguistics. God is more likely to value the former than the latter. Language has structure but humanity does not. Humanity is fluid. The soul of a people is in the fluidity of its humanity but not in the structure of language. God wants both our individual and collective souls.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Re: No Offense Intended

If it's a part of what it means to be a part of "the group" then yes. It may be exciting at first to hear, speak and utter this "God Talk" and Religionese, but after a while it not only becomes tiring, but annoying because it's as if you can't contribute unless you speak the God-Talk or Religionese. When you stop speaking that coded language you're no longer a team player but a lurker.

I suppose this is what makes one ask what the most important thing is in religion. Is it community, or is it when we agree on the same tenets, speak the same coded language or chant the same slogans? I believe community is the most important thing. Christianity should not have ideas, tenets, words or slogans as its foundation but people. As 1 Peter 2 says, we are to come as "living stones" to form God's spiritual temple. The living soul or psyche of a religion is not in tenets, words or slogans, but people because that is where the life is.

But speaking of coded languages, it reminds me of the story of the Tower of Babel, where God confused the languages of the people building the tower. I think it's an important lesson that God doesn't want spirituality to be driven by "building structures" to reach into heaven, whether that is with physical bricks and mortar or with words, tenets and slogans. God wants people, hearts and minds.

We speak different languages but no single language is a way of connecting with God. No language is more special than another. Each language is just a way of expressing ideas and feelings that are agnostic of or independent to linguistics. God is more likely to value the former than the latter. Language has structure but humanity does not. Humanity is fluid. The soul of a people is in the fluidity of its humanity but not in the structure of language. God wants both our individual and collective souls.

Well said ...

Even so, perhaps the language itself is like speaking in tongue? Not the gibberish we hear so often on TV, but a language in its own right, understood by those who are among the "fold" <-- Church talk

I'll not be critical of those who speak like this, nor will I be critical of those who grow tired of it. We are each different; we each have our personal preferences.

If you can no longer stomach this type of talk, maybe it best that you avoid those who speak it? (Seriously) If it causes you discomfort, as you suggest, then why on earth would you surround yourself by those who talk in such a manner? (If you do at all)

You know, God confused our language for a reason; I believe He did so that we might one day come to understand and speak God's true Language. Something common and universal and understood by all. A language shared even among infants, a language of the heart.

Until then, we must deal with the chosen lingo of others. Heck, we may have to deal with such forever. So perhaps we need to focus on the "language of heart" (Love) and less on the discomfort associated with the "language of tongue".


GK


Edit: By loving our fellow man, we are in effect loving and honoring God. We each are His creations, fashioned in His image. I believe He has placed us here (Together in all our diversity) so we might come to put away our differences and unify under His Spirit, which I view to be "Love". God is Love according to 1 John 4, so when we embrace His Spirit, and live through it, we in effect honor God (Who is Love Himself).

 

[GlorytoGod]

Re: No Offense Intended

In all seriousness, does it really matter how others speak? Is it really that offensive? Give dem type of Christians a break will ya ... It's simply how many have been conditioned.

GK

i suppose not, its just I no longer believe people when they say God told me this ir that because most of the time I think its egocentric bull****.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Re: No Offense Intended

i suppose not, its just I no longer believe people when they say God told me this ir that because most of the time I think its egocentric bull****.

lol, I never did!! I always found it to be a little weird that a person would say that God told them to do anything. It just doesn't fit with my view of God. Then again, who am I to tell them that they are full of $h!t, I mean really? I can be just as egocentric at times.

GK

 

[Saltmeister]

Re: No Offense Intended

Even so, perhaps the language itself is like speaking in tongue? Not the gibberish we hear so often on TV, but a language in its own right, understood by those who are among the "fold" <-- Church talk

If you mean the strange, unnatural rattling sound people make when (supposedly) they are filled with the Holy Spirit, then no I didn't mean that. I meant just "plain emotion."

I've seen people "speaking in tongues," but I have never done it myself. I went to a church once where it was part of the "worshiping program" there. I was taken there by someone in my "home church" (no speaking in tongues there). The person who took me there was doing it too with the others when we visited and I think I could occasionally hear what she was saying. I think this is one of those experiences that not everybody is going to be able to enjoy.

If you can no longer stomach this type of talk, maybe it best that you avoid those who speak it? (Seriously) If it causes you discomfort, as you suggest, then why on earth would you surround yourself by those who talk in such a manner? (If you do at all)

Well . . . I don't think I would deliberately try to avoid such people. I just wouldn't be too interested in being part of their group. I'd be afraid that being part of the group means that I'm going to have to talk and behave like the rest of them. . . . for the rest of my life!

But if you're Christian and they're Christian, I think there are times when you are going to have to mingle with them. You don't want to have to be like them or do what they do (not all the time anyway) but at the same time you can't treat them like they're poison or like they're your enemy. It would be a real shame if two groups of Christians didn't want to connect with each other as a community. Something would be seriously wrong if two groups couldn't find enough common ground to at least socialise and make friends.

Two groups of Christians not wanting to connect, interact, mingle and socialise? That would be a tragedy. I may clash with a group because of their outward politics, but when it comes to thinking of ourselves as all part of one family, alienation would be sad and tragic.

Until then, we must deal with the chosen lingo of others. Heck, we may have to deal with such forever. So perhaps we need to focus on the "language of heart" (Love) and less on the discomfort associated with the "language of tongue".

Edit: By loving our fellow man, we are in effect loving and honoring God. We each are His creations, fashioned in His image. I believe He has placed us here (Together in all our diversity) so we might come to put away our differences and unify under His Spirit, which I view to be "Love". God is Love according to 1 John 4, so when we embrace His Spirit, and live through it, we in effect honor God (Who is Love Himself).

I accept that these coded languages are naturally going to emerge as people are mobilised to work towards a goal. Certain ideas are promoted as important and the words attached to these ideas start to dominate the social framework.

Maybe I've become a little cynical lately and I need to take a step back and ease my cynicism. But it does seem to bug me a little because the lingo that develops seems to be saying, "Are you with us or not? Are you with us or not?"

. . . and so the dialogue goes:

Yeah I'm with you (as in, I'm a Christian too), but I think I've been assigned to another project. I better get back to my foreman.

It's like . . . everyone seems to think their project is more important than the others. Hey look what we're working on . . . oh sorry it looks like you got the boring jobs. We're building cities and moving mountains, you? You're still playing with the dinosaurs.

 

[Saltmeister]

Re: No Offense Intended

i suppose not, its just I no longer believe people when they say God told me this ir that because most of the time I think its egocentric bull****.

I'm ok with personal stories. I would celebrate people for their individuality and individual experience. I think these "personal stories" only start to be a problem when we think, or when someone else thinks we have to do something with them. It's when we feel compelled to do something with someone else's experiences. Most of the time one person's experiences are meaningful for themselves only. Trying to get someone else to appreciate your own experiences is very difficult.

Then again, who am I to tell them that they are full of $h!t, I mean really? I can be just as egocentric at times.

I'm probably the most egocentric person on this forum. I am relieved that at least one person can put up with people like me.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Re: No Offense Intended

If you mean the strange, unnatural rattling sound people make when (supposedly) they are filled with the Holy Spirit, then no I didn't mean that. I meant just "plain emotion."

I've seen people "speaking in tongues," but I have never done it myself. I went to a church once where it was part of the "worshiping program" there. I was taken there by someone in my "home church" (no speaking in tongues there). The person who took me there was doing it too with the others when we visited and I think I could occasionally hear what she was saying. I think this is one of those experiences that not everybody is going to be able to enjoy.

I've never witnessed it cept on TV. I find it a very strange occurrance, and to be honest, I don't buy into it. But hey! That's just me.

Well . . . I don't think I would deliberately try to avoid such people. I just wouldn't be too interested in being part of their group. I'd be afraid that being part of the group means that I'm going to have to talk and behave like the rest of them. . . . for the rest of my life!

But if you're Christian and they're Christian, I think there are times when you are going to have to mingle with them. You don't want to have to be like them or do what they do (not all the time anyway) but at the same time you can't treat them like they're poison or like they're your enemy. It would be a real shame if two groups of Christians didn't want to connect with each other as a community. Something would be seriously wrong if two groups couldn't find enough common ground to at least socialise and make friends.

Two groups of Christians not wanting to connect, interact, mingle and socialise? That would be a tragedy. I may clash with a group because of their outward politics, but when it comes to thinking of ourselves as all part of one family, alienation would be sad and tragic.

I agree, Mr. Salt ...

I accept that these coded languages are naturally going to emerge as people are mobilised to work towards a goal. Certain ideas are promoted as important and the words attached to these ideas start to dominate the social framework.

Maybe I've become a little cynical lately and I need to take a step back and ease my cynicism. But it does seem to bug me a little because the lingo that develops seems to be saying, "Are you with us or not? Are you with us or not?"

It does seem to keep those who choose not to adopt the language out of the circle (I agree).

. . . and so the dialogue goes:

Yeah I'm with you (as in, I'm a Christian too), but I think I've been assigned to another project. I better get back to my foreman.

It's like . . . everyone seems to think their project is more important than the others. Hey look what we're working on . . . oh sorry it looks like you got the boring jobs. We're building cities and moving mountains, you? You're still playing with the dinosaurs.

Well, the way I look at this is that we each make up a part of Christ's body (The church). We each also have different functions (Contributions) as part of the Church. I think each part (Each person) is just as necessary and needed as the others.

No matter how minimal we feel our own functions (Contributions) might be; I believe they is no less needed than those we view to be building cities and moving mountains.

We all have our place ...

1 Corinthians 12:12-27

James

 

[friendofbill]

So do you think it would be fair to translate some of these phrases

eg

"God Told me" = "I had an idea, that I need to justify"

Yes, that sums it up nicely.

 

[nativeastral]

Re: No Offense Intended

We speak different languages but no single language is a way of connecting with God. No language is more special than another. Each language is just a way of expressing ideas and feelings that are agnostic of or independent to linguistics. God is more likely to value the former than the latter. Language has structure but humanity does not. Humanity is fluid. The soul of a people is in the fluidity of its humanity but not in the structure of language. God wants both our individual and collective souls.

that reminds me in the article :

'Let’s finish as we started with an astute word from C.S. Lewis. "As words become exclusively emotional they cease to be words and therefore of course cease to perform any strictly linguistic function. They operate as growls or barks or tears ...They die as words not because there is too much emotion in them but because there is too little - and finally nothing at all - of anything else".'

as language evolves and changes with each generation, so does its interpretation, significance, and meaning, even indoctrinated or cast iron accepted or sacrosanct beliefs [a negative connotation usually directed at protestants' individualism/faith inculcating more 'heretical' views from an 'orthodox' dogma pov].

so any defunct phrase or platitude is easily detected outwith that circle but within it is accepted G talk. Language is a means of bonding and identification and yet conversely differentiation or alienation from the 'other'
which if l was a Christian would be worrying for intra faith dialogue let alone interfaith, but l suppose all religions have this obstacle to break through [retaining exclusivity while trying to be inclusive]. Concepts need to be understood as relevant.

we really are conditioned to a great extent by our language, at least we are aware of this nowadays.

 

[Dream]

3: None seem to have heeded St. John's admonition to "test the spirits" (I John 4:1).

I actually agree with you dogbrain on all three points. I had hoped you'd say more on the subject, so don't take my post the wrong way.