Behind the burka

[iBrian]

Brian we are talking about Muslim societies. Our society in the UK may have moved to acceptance of liberal sexual women over the past couple of decades but it doesn't mean every society has to agree with it. Certainly in the middle east if a girl starts sleeping around she would be deemed little better than a prostitute. [/SIZE]

Indeed, which is the point - Christianity spent centuries in Europe trying to suppress women and especially control their sexuality.

Modern Europe sees it as important that women be allowed equal rights to men as much as is practically possible, and this includes the ability to make decisions on how they dress and who they conduct relations with.

The irony is that the control of women has always been very hypocritical - men have sought to ensure their own free sexual expression, while ensuring that women are controlled by not being allowed their own. As you stated in other post, men are pretty forgiving of men fooling around.

Perhaps instead of some men trying to control women, women should instead seek to control men by ensuring that all sources of water should be drugged with sexual suppressants specifically targeting men. That way, women can dress how they like, men are chemically castrated, and there would be no fooling around and sexual depravity at all? I actually like that idea.

 

[shawn]

Indeed, which is the point - Christianity spent centuries in Europe trying to suppress women and especially control their sexuality.

Modern Europe sees it as important that women be allowed equal rights to men as much as is practically possible, and this includes the ability to make decisions on how they dress and who they conduct relations with.

The irony is that the control of women has always been very hypocritical - men have sought to ensure their own free sexual expression, while ensuring that women are controlled by not being allowed their own. As you stated in other post, men are pretty forgiving of men fooling around.

Perhaps instead of some men trying to control women, women should instead seek to control men by ensuring that all sources of water should be drugged with sexual suppressants specifically targeting men. That way, women can dress how they like, men are chemically castrated, and there would be no fooling around and sexual depravity at all? I actually like that idea.

Surprising that the women haven't thought of that already........like, how bad does it have to get and how long does the thing have to go on for before a concerted effort is made to remedy the situation, or is it an enmass stockholm syndrome and utter apathy?

 

[Dogbrain]

Chemical suppression of male sexuality won't "remedy" anything. Barbaric* men use sexual methods to exert power over women. If the avenue of sex is denied them, they will simply fall back to overt violence and the threat of violence.

"Gimme a sammich and shut yer bitch mouth before I hit you again!" doesn't require sexual desire to be the way a man thinks he should act towards women.

*I use "barbaric" here in the sense of "backwards, uncouth, uncivilized, and inferior". I chose it specifically for its emotional impact.

It's not about sex. Sex is just the way the real problem is expressed. A man who is "tempted beyond reason" by a scantily-clad, attractive woman has not been "tempted beyond reason", he has DECIDED to do evil and is blaming the woman for it. "If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."

To forestall knee-jerk evangelical atheists who will then claim that this means that Christians want to gouge out eyes, the point of Christ's statement was to tell people who claimed that they had no personal responsibility for sin but were "forced" into it by what they saw that, if that was the case, they had better gouge their eyes out.

 

[Muslimwoman]

--> I think the reason I have done it is because I believe that niqabis are suffering psychological damage that they are not even aware of.

Hi Nick

I would have totally agreed with you before I went to Egypt and even before I started wearing niqab. I believed all the ideas about oppressed women, no choices, desperate for freedom to dress and act as they please ... my ideas were laughed at by these very women. They have no desire to emulate women in the west, in fact they generally think we are a bunch of sluts. Yes some would like more freedom, particularly the younger generation but not freedom as we view it. I imagine the women in Afghanistan during taliban rule would have had very differing views though but we can't assume all women in niqab are the same.
　

--> Yes, although it would be better to do it while standing on a street corner in front of your own house instead of invading her house and saying such things.

Why would I campaign for something I don't believe in? I fitted so well into society over there because I believe we in the west have gone too far in our bid for equality, we have simply sunk to the level of men. Of course that is said with the hindsight of a rebellious youth in the west.

We had a phenominon here in the UK called "ladettes" in the 90's ... in fact the word is now in the English dictionary.

"The word ladette has been coined to describe young women who emulate laddish behaviour."

I prefer women to be women and would prefer men to try to reach our standards rather than sink to theirs LOL
　

--> Some people are slightly unhappy, others are somewhat unhappy, others are rather unhappy, and others are extremely unhappy. It is a huge sliding scale.

and how many people on this scale find the answer to their problem in sleeping around? Wouldn't you agree that this behaviour more often than not simply masks an underlying emotional problem which needs to be dealt with?
　

I also disagree with the idea that society should refuse to accept such people. People with personality disorders have just as much right to live in our society as anyone else, and they have the right to be treated with a minimum amount of respect. I must say, I get the feeling that Islam feels it does not have to treat such people with a minimum of respect.

Of course they have a right to live in society and be treated with respect. What I am suggesting is they have a problem we need to deal with in order to help them. Simply shrugging and accepting them sleeping around isn't helping them or treating them with respect, it is ignoring their actual problem. If you can accept that then surely you would accept it is better to stop them sleeping around and deal with their personality disorder or emotional problem?
　

--> I agree that the word invalid is distasteful. What word do you suggest we use instead, to describe ideas that we refuse to take into our own personal belief systems?

I would suggest unaceptable or not convincing.
　

--> I guess it is because I am afraid that most niqabis are closed-minded about all of this, at it would only result in an argument. You are open-minded about all of this, and I am happy to see that.

You don't need to talk to niqabi's to find out about life behind the veil, just go to youtube and search for niqab journey or why I wear niqab. You will see video's from converts and born Muslims.

Of course these are people happy to wear niqab because they had a choice and where women or girls are forced there are obviously problems but I think you would agree if you are forced to wear/do anything there are psychological side affects.

Bear in mind that I have also spoken to women of my own age who do not wear niqab and have deeply regretted not doing so, others would never consider it. The psychological issues, to my mind, only come into play when it stops being a choice and starts being a burden through force of any kind (even peer pressure).
　

But you are implying that we should not be allowed to act on such assumptions. I disagree.

No I am simply suggesting that where we have steroetyped ideas about a group of people we must endevour to understand their lives and point of view ... we are then free to accept or reject their lifestyles.

Modern Europe sees it as important that women be allowed equal rights to men as much as is practically possible, and this includes the ability to make decisions on how they dress and who they conduct relations with.

but men do not have such freedoms in Islamic society so why should women? That is speaking about the religious side.

The cultural side of course is a different matter and I agree men have always done the "do as I say not as I do" thing but as I say to Nick above, in my view equality doesn't mean coming down to the level of men in such matters and we also don't have to see it as men controlling womens sexuality, women can choose to behave better than men.

Chemical suppression of male sexuality won't "remedy" anything. Barbaric* men use sexual methods to exert power over women. If the avenue of sex is denied them, they will simply fall back to overt violence and the threat of violence.

I don't think it's just barbaric men who exert power over women to get what they want, even civilised men are using the persuation of equality to get exactly what they want. Women in the West have been lulled into exactly what men want them to be under the banner of equality. Yeah get your kit off and be a topless model, it's equality don't you know .... you have equal rights, including sexual rights so get your kit off and advertise this power tool in a bikini. Hey this is 2010 have another drink and let's jump in the sack. Men used to long for this and now they have it. Why are we, as women, buying into this?

My father, who is now 70, tells of his days dating my mother and the 18 frustrating months he spent trying to get his hand up her jumper (to no avail) before they married. This to me says much more about my mothers self respect, willpower and personality than it does about her oppression or lack of equality.

he has DECIDED to do evil and is blaming the woman for it.

Totally agree with you and it's something I think we need to accept more in the Muslim world, where women are so often seen as the temptress of the poor innocent man .. even though Islam is quick to point out that Adam and Eve were equally guilty of sin.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi MW,
　
You said,
　
"I would have totally agreed with you before I went to Egypt and even before I started wearing niqab. I believed all the ideas about oppressed women, no choices, desperate for freedom to dress and act as they please ... my ideas were laughed at by these very women."
　
--> The best we can hope for is respecting each others ideas, and asking that each other will at least consider each other’s viewpoints. I have been in several foreign countries, and there is always pressure upn me to accept their way as the right way, and someone always finds it insulting when I ask them to at least consider it my way, or when I won’t do that because I am an American.
　
"…it would be better to do it while standing on a street corner in front of your own house instead of invading her house and saying such things. --> Why would I campaign for something I don't believe in?"
　
--> My point is that I feel you should be standing on a street corner and proclaiming such things (but being stopped by a fear of people laughing at you) because I feel psychological damage is happening. Your point is that you feel psychological damage is not happening. The point here is that we acknowledge each other’s viewpoint.
　
"…we in the west have gone too far in our bid for equality, we have simply sunk to the level of men."
　
--> One way of defending criticisms of our own society is to say, "Oh yeah? Look at this flaw in your society. I won’t listen to you criticize my society in that way until you admit that there are flaws in your society too."
　
"I prefer women to be women and would prefer men to try to reach our standards rather than sink to theirs…"
　
--> The idea is to also see it from the other person’s viewpoint. If a man from that society had an opposing viewpoint, what would it be?
　
"Wouldn't you agree that this behaviour more often than not simply masks an underlying emotional problem which needs to be dealt with?"
　
--> Yes, and I deal with such behavior everyday. Do you feel this behavior is being dealt with in an effective way in Islam?
　
"Simply shrugging and accepting them sleeping around isn't helping them or treating them with respect, it is ignoring their actual problem."
　
--> But I do not think that forcing these people underground or throwing them into jail is any better (which is what I think Islam does to these people, at least that is the image that Islam projects to the world).
　
"If you can accept that then surely you would accept it is better to stop them sleeping around and deal with their personality disorder or emotional problem?"
　
--> Can you guarantee that, if they are stopped from sleeping around, they will also get the help they need to deal with their personality disorder or emotional problem? The picture that I am getting from Islam is that there is too much of the first not being followed by the second.
　
Also, the western world has finally given women the right to sleep around (a right that western men have always had). With freedom comes responsibility. Also, my feeling is that men in Islam still have the right to sleep around while women in Islam do not.

"I agree that the word invalid is distasteful. What word do you suggest we use instead, to describe ideas that we refuse to take into our own personal belief systems? --> I would suggest unaceptable or not convincing."
　
--> Sounds good. I have started using the phrase, "That idea does not fit into my belief system."
　
"You don't need to talk to niqabi's to find out about life behind the veil, just go to youtube and search for niqab journey or why I wear niqab. You will see video's from converts and born Muslims."
　
--> Again, it gets back to the purpose of having these discussions. My goal here is to have them acknowledge my viewpoint as well as giving me an opportunity to acknowledge their viewpoint. Looking at YouTube videos does not accomplish that for me.
　
"… I think you would agree if you are forced to wear/do anything there are psychological side affects."
　
--> I do, and I am glad that you have agreed that some women may suffer psychological side affects form voluntarily wearing niqabs.
　
"The psychological issues, to my mind, only come into play when it stops being a choice and starts being a burden through force of any kind (even peer pressure)."
　
--> I disagree.
　
"…in my view equality doesn't mean coming down to the level of men in such matters…"
　
--> I disagree that refusing to wear a niqab is coming down to the level of men.
　
"…and we also don't have to see it as men controlling womens sexuality."
　
--> I do. I guess we just have to disagree on this. But I do see it as men trying to control women’s sexuality, and I am glad some western countries are not allowing it to happen.
　
"…women can choose to behave better than men."
　
--> I do not see hiding as better behavior.
　
"Hey this is 2010 have another drink and let's jump in the sack. Men used to long for this and now they have it. Why are we, as women, buying into this?"
　
--> I agree that it’s wrong, not because it is ‘immoral,’ but because it leads to a lot of unhappiness that is just around the corner and people do not even see it coming. I think it is a case of the pendulum swinging from one extreme to another, and I agree that ‘friends with benefits’ is causing a lot of unhappiness. (This is one of the things I fight against the most.)
　
"…in the Muslim world, where women are so often seen as the temptress of the poor innocent man…"
　
--> I can see how such a idea would lead to having women wearing niqabs. and justify allowing Muslim men to control women in a sexual way and make women second-class citizens.

"My father, who is now 70, tells of his days dating my mother and the 18 frustrating months he spent trying to get his hand up her jumper (to no avail) before they married."

--> I agree that a woman who refuses this today is seen as 'weird' whereas 50 years ago she was not. Some of us westerners are trying to advance our society to the point where this will not be a problem any more. (We westerners also hope that we can see similar advances in Muslim society as time goes by.)

 

[Muslimwoman]

and someone always finds it insulting when I ask them to at least consider it my way, or when I won’t do that because I am an American.

Hi Nick

I think to be fair we have to acknowledge that we in the west also do this, we can easily feel insulted if someone comes to our country and doesn't agree with our social norms.
　

--> My point is that I feel you should be standing on a street corner and proclaiming such things (but being stopped by a fear of people laughing at you)

I'm afraid that is completely inaccurate. If I believed people should be free to sleep around in Egypt I would happily stand up for this.
　

--> One way of defending criticisms of our own society is to say, "Oh yeah? Look at this flaw in your society. I won’t listen to you criticize my society in that way until you admit that there are flaws in your society too."

Indeed there are many flaws in any society, incuding various Muslim societies. However you need to remember I have a foot in each camp, I am a Westerner but also now a Muslim, so it's impossible for me to seperate out what each culture is up to. Its not about blaming the other or standing in a glass house throwing stone, it's about trying to explain where I believe we in the west are being hypocritical or where I feel there is misunderstanding between the two cultures.
　

--> The idea is to also see it from the other person’s viewpoint. If a man from that society had an opposing viewpoint, what would it be?

Sorry not understanding your question here .. viewpoint on what?
　
"Wouldn't you agree that this behaviour more often than not simply masks an underlying emotional problem which needs to be dealt with?"
　

--> Yes, and I deal with such behavior everyday. Do you feel this behavior is being dealt with in an effective way in Islam?

The honest answer is I have no idea, as I don't move in such circles but my suspicion is no. Islam accepts that women are as sexually active and motivated as men but then culture often steps in with it's view of women being the "corruptors of men". It's not difficult though to find medical papers by Muslim doctors on the net dealing with sexual and personality disorders but how wide spread this knowledge is I don't know.
　

--> Can you guarantee that, if they are stopped from sleeping around, they will also get the help they need to deal with their personality disorder or emotional problem? The picture that I am getting from Islam is that there is too much of the first not being followed by the second.

I can't guarantee anything and each Muslim society is different. Before I could talk about such things I would have to visit various Muslim countries and see what help is or is not provided but I can't make assumptions based on what I read in the press.

I'm not being rude here but it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking of Muslim countries as backwards, without adequate medical care or recognition of mental health issues.
　

Also, the western world has finally given women the right to sleep around (a right that western men have always had).

This I think is where we fundamentally disagree (I may be wrong). You seem to think this is a good thing, whereas I think it is a bad thing. I don't think either should have the right or be accepted in sleeping around.

Also, my feeling is that men in Islam still have the right to sleep around while women in Islam do not.

Gosh not at all. In Islam neither have a right to sleep around, it is strictly forbidden. However, what Islam says and what some Muslims do is a very different matter. In the UK driving over the speed limit is illegal and yet thousands of ordinary "law abiding" citizens do it every day ... that doesn't make it normal or correct.
　

Looking at YouTube videos does not accomplish that for me.

Agreed but it is one way to begin to educate yourself on how these women think and why they make the choices they do.
　

--> I do, and I am glad that you have agreed that some women may suffer psychological side affects form voluntarily wearing niqabs.

I would only agree with that if you are talking about making the choice through peer pressure. If it is an educated, free choice then no I would not agree.

--> I disagree that refusing to wear a niqab is coming down to the level of men.[/quote]

I was talking about sexual activity outside marriage and not dress choices. Millions of Musim women do not wear niqab and I have no desire to suggest they do so and do not think they are sinking to the level of men by not doing so.
　

--> I do not see hiding as better behavior.

I do, until we teach men to stop thinking with their trousers.
　

I think it is a case of the pendulum swinging from one extreme to another, and I agree that ‘friends with benefits’ is causing a lot of unhappiness. (This is one of the things I fight against the most.)

Do you think the pendulum will swing back to a happy medium? I can't see how it can but hope I am wrong.

Glad to hear you don't agree with FWB relationships, it's a topic on my blog and seems for each where it works out there are 20 that simply cause pain to people.

--> I agree that a woman who refuses this today is seen as 'weird' whereas 50 years ago she was not. Some of us westerners are trying to advance our society to the point where this will not be a problem any more. (We westerners also hope that we can see similar advances in Muslim society as time goes by.)

What is it you don't want to be seen as a problem anymore?

Islam has no problem with women's sexuality, inside the boundary of marriage, it is positively encouraged and men are encouraged to satisfy women and not be sexually selfish. I hope Muslims never get to the point where they accept sex before marriage as the norm or they will end up on the same slippery slope we have in the west.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi MW,
　
You said,
　
"I am a Westerner but also now a Muslim, so it's impossible for me to seperate out what each culture is up to."

--> Just the opposite is true for me. I speak Japanese, I used to live in Japan, and I am very familiar with Japanese culture. I have gotten to the point where I always pick and choose the best parts of both cultures. Sometimes the Japanese way of doing something is better, other times the American way is better, and I have no trouble separating out which is which for myself.
　
"…it's about trying to explain where I believe we in the west are being hypocritical or where I feel there is misunderstanding between the two cultures."

--> I have found that being hypocritical is one of the most difficult things to admit, especially when someone ‘from the other side’ points it out.
　
"Islam accepts that women are as sexually active and motivated as men but then culture often steps in with it's view of women being the "corruptors of men"."

--> I just realized this is the same idea as Eve tempting Adam in the Garden of Eden. Fascinating. In Genesis, God places much more blame on women.
　
"I'm not being rude here but it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking of Muslim countries as backwards, without adequate medical care or recognition of mental health issues."

--> Ah, yes, the stereotypes are still quite strong.
　
"…the western world has finally given women the right to sleep around (a right that western men have always had). --> This I think is where we fundamentally disagree (I may be wrong). You seem to think this is a good thing, whereas I think it is a bad thing. I don't think either should have the right or be accepted in sleeping around."
　
--> Yes, this is a huge disagreement between us. I don’t think it’s good they sleep around, I think it’s good they have the right to sleep around. Again, the important thing here is for both of us to consider each other’s viewpoint.
　
"In Islam neither have a right to sleep around, it is strictly forbidden. However, what Islam says and what some Muslims do is a very different matter. In the UK driving over the speed limit is illegal and yet thousands of ordinary "law abiding" citizens do it every day ... that doesn't make it normal or correct."

--> You are right. Also, I was assuming that a culture that hides its women but doesn’t hide its men would openly allow the men more sexual freedom.
　
"…I am glad that you have agreed that some women may suffer psychological side affects form voluntarily wearing niqabs. --> I would only agree with that if you are talking about making the choice through peer pressure. If it is an educated, free choice then no I would not agree."
　
--> We disagree once again. I am convinced that only very strong women avoid psychological damage by hiding their entire public life.

"I do not see hiding as better behavior. --> I do, until we teach men to stop thinking with their trousers."
　
--> I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this.
　
"Do you think the pendulum will swing back to a happy medium? I can't see how it can but hope I am wrong."
　
--> I am confident that it eventually will, but it may take hundreds or thousands of years. (Just like how we don’t have Saturday night gladiator shows and Christian vs. lion shows any more!)
　
"Glad to hear you don't agree with FWB relationships, it's a topic on my blog and seems for each where it works out there are 20 that simply cause pain to people."
　
--> In my opinion, there is no such thing as friends with benefits. One person usually ends up emotionally attached to the other, and it becomes a mess.
　
"I agree that a woman who refuses this today is seen as 'weird' whereas 50 years ago she was not. Some of us westerners are trying to advance our society to the point where this will not be a problem any more. (We westerners also hope that we can see similar advances in Muslim society as time goes by.) --> What is it you don't want to be seen as a problem anymore?"
　
--> I don’t want a woman to be seen as weird any more in my society just because she refuses to engage in premarital sex.

 

[Muslimwoman]

I have gotten to the point where I always pick and choose the best parts of both cultures.

Hi Nick

This is what I do with my life, within the limits of my faith. All I was suggesting is it's impossible for me in these discussions not to do the "yeah but you lot are doing this" ... I do it to both sides. I agree two wrongs don't make a right but hypocracy, while difficult to admit, should be pointed out.

--> I just realized this is the same idea as Eve tempting Adam in the Garden of Eden. Fascinating. In Genesis, God places much more blame on women.

The Quran tells the Adam and Eve story but the blame is not laid at Eve's door and menstruation is not deemed a punishment of God. Actually I was rather amused when hubby was totally shocked that the Adam and Eve story was in the bible ... this is why I find it sad that Muslims, Jews and Christians don't read each others scriptures and look for the similarities in belief, rather than all this we're right and you're wrong milarky.
　

--> Yes, this is a huge disagreement between us. I don’t think it’s good they sleep around, I think it’s good they have the right to sleep around. Again, the important thing here is for both of us to consider each other’s viewpoint.

But how many young women do this and regret it later in life? Also in your work how many women do you deal with who can't seperate out love and sex ... they sleep around for attention, mistaking this for affection and we both know this is more damaging than the loneliness they try to avoid, as it's a vicious circle.

-->Also, I was assuming that a culture that hides its women but doesn’t hide its men would openly allow the men more sexual freedom.

There is a contradiction there Nick. For men to have more sexual freedom in society women need to be involved. If women are hidden men can't have sexual freedom.

Agreed there is a double standard ... a huge one ... and yes the men in Muslim societies try to protect their daughters from men because they were young men and understand the minds of men and what they are prepared to do to persuade a girl to give in.

But are women hidden or protected? Sorry if I waffle a bit but this is a very important point to me.

The general fear is about protecting women from men. We in the West decided women should be free to go about their lives and make their own choices ... how many sexual assaults are there against women in our two countries alone? Which gender is trafficked throughout the world for the sex industry .. yes even in Muslim countries? Now compare that to how many sexual assaults there are against men or how many men are trafficked.

The difference between our societies is the west decided that women should be free to make their own choices and Muslim society decided women must be protected from such things. While we all agree sexual assualt and trafficking is wrong, it still continues and in the West we simply mop up the aftermath.

Muslim society see's it from a different perspective. Why expose women to such dangers? Do you not care about women to not want to protect them in this way? Women are seen as something precious, something to protect and guard. Men understand men, they know what drives them and until men start to change women will be protected in this way. Once a society is established where men do not allow themselves or each other to behave like this the women will (and are now in some areas) given more freedom.

I am not suggesting all Muslim societies have it right (some have a dreadful record of their treatment of women) but I don't think we do either. Sexual freedom in the west has not stopped such crimes, they have in fact increased as far as I am aware.
　
It's easy to say but it's men who do this so the problem lies with men ... I agree but it's women who are the victims. Should women be punished for the wrongs of men? Of course not but surely we must be protected from them?

--> We disagree once again. I am convinced that only very strong women avoid psychological damage by hiding their entire public life.

Other than Taliban ruled Afghanistan and possibly to a degree in Saudi (although I've never been) where are Muslim women hiding their entire public life? We go shopping, we eat out, we visit friends, some are politically active, some do charity work ... these are all deemed perfectly normal activities for a western housewife, the only difference is the way they dress.
　
--> I am confident that it eventually will, but it may take hundreds or thousands of years. (Just like how we don’t have Saturday night gladiator shows and Christian vs. lion shows any more!)
　

--> I don’t want a woman to be seen as weird any more in my society just because she refuses to engage in premarital sex.

Excellent, we can agree on this and I think it speaks volumes about the society we have created that this is how we see such women.

 

[Raksha]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot
--> Yes, this is a huge disagreement between us. I don’t think it’s good they sleep around, I think it’s good they have the right to sleep around. Again, the important thing here is for both of us to consider each other’s viewpoint.

But how many young women do this [sleep around] and regret it later in life?

MW,

Have you ever wondered how many young women do that and DON'T regret it later in life? Of course that presupposed a culture where they won't be stoned to death or murdered by their families in honor killings if their "sins" were discovered.

Also in your work how many women do you deal with who can't seperate out love and sex ... they sleep around for attention, mistaking this for affection and we both know this is more damaging than the loneliness they try to avoid, as it's a vicious circle.

Anyone, male of female, who is mature at all knows the difference between love and sex. As for sleeping around for attention, acceptance and approval--I did that at one period of my life, and I don't regret it for one minute. In fact, I'm actually amused by the pious head-shaking over girls like I used to be, about how "terrible" it's supposed to be that we "give" sex in order to "get" approval and acceptance. I have only ever had one thing to say to that: IT WORKS!!!

As for it being "more damaging than the loneliness I was trying to avoid"...are you kidding me? Anyone who could say that with a straight face doesn't know what loneliness is.

--Linda

 

[Muslimwoman]

Have you ever wondered how many young women do that and DON'T regret it later in life?

Of course there are plenty of people who do not regret it and plenty who do. There are also people who go in for some rather bizarre sexual practices and I feel sure many of them don't regret it either.

Have you ever considered whether we now have too much freedom and whether that is taking society in the right direction? Considering the number of sexual assaults, rapes, peodophile groups, trafficking in the sex trade, drugs related to prostitution, etc that we now see so prevelent in our society?

Anyone, male of female, who is mature at all knows the difference between love and sex.

I totally disagree with you. I run a dating blog and the evidence I see is that many women sleep around thinking it is providing affection of some sort. Nick and I were discussing emotional and personality disorders, which are much more widespread in society than we generally accept and personally I find the level of sexual freedom links directly to levels of loneliness and using sex to try to fill a void.

I have only ever had one thing to say to that: IT WORKS!!!

I wonder if the men would agree with you or if they would even remember you.

Anyone who could say that with a straight face doesn't know what loneliness is.

I know perfectly well what loneliness is but think there are much healthier ways to deal with it than selling yourself short and allowing yourself to be used sexually for a few minutes of companionship, from someone who won't remember your name tomorrow.

 

[Raksha]

Have you ever considered whether we now have too much freedom and whether that is taking society in the right direction? Considering the number of sexual assaults, rapes, peodophile groups, trafficking in the sex trade, drugs related to prostitution, etc that we now see so prevelent in our society?

MW,

These abuses are not the result of WOMEN having too much freedom, but of MEN still having too much power over them, and of a patriarchal, misogynistic legal system in many countries which protects the abusers rather than the victims.

If women are not free to say YES, they are not free to say NO either. I'm sure you'll understand if you think about it that it has to be BOTH. It isn't one or the other, nor is it a matter of "too much freedom" for women, because after all--men have always had that freedom. MEN have to be taught from childhood that their are responsible for their own sexual feelings and their own sexual behavior, just as they are responsible for their own behavior in all other areas.

There is no such thing as "she asked for it," unless of course she actually does ask for it! A woman should be free to walk down the street stark naked if she so desires and still be unmolested, with no man laying hands on her without her permission.

--Linda

 

[Raksha]

I know perfectly well what loneliness is but think there are much healthier ways to deal with it than selling yourself short and allowing yourself to be used sexually for a few minutes of companionship, from someone who won't remember your name tomorrow.

MW,

For the record, I had very few one-night stands, and never with guys who didn't remember my name the next day! There was a series of extramarital relationships (granted, some were pretty short!) over about a three-year period. But always there was friendship first and almost as a prerequisite, because it was primarily acceptance and friendship that I was looking for. Some of those relationships resulted in lifelong friendships, which is one of the main reasons I don't regret them!

--Linda

 

[Muslimwoman]

These abuses are not the result of WOMEN having too much freedom

Hi Linda

I didn't say anything about women, you have assumed that is what I meant.

I said and meant too much freedom in society .. that would include men and women.

We seem these days to be assuming that men have always had total sexual freedom and women have not, which is historically simply not the case and this has changed many times in the history of human life.

 

[Raksha]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raksha
I have only ever had one thing to say to that: IT WORKS!!!

I wonder if the men would agree with you or if they would even remember you.

LOL!!! I make damn sure no man who was ever involved with me forgets me...not even if he wants to!!!

--Linda

 

[Muslimwoman]

For the record, I had very few one-night stands, and never with guys who didn't remember my name the next day!

Hi Linda

Isn't sexuality a fascinating subject, within 3 posts you have gone from girl power and "IT WORKS" to well there weren't that many and ...

I'm not judging you, yet you felt the need to explain. Who you sleep with, how many and if you swing from chandaliers is not my business or concern and you have the right to do as you like ... as long as it's not with my husband

because it was primarily acceptance and friendship that I was looking for.

This is what I was talking about earlier ... you were prepared to give a man what he wants (sex) in order to receive in return what you want (acceptance and friendship). These arrangements have been going on since the dawn of man.

It may not have affected you in the slightest (although personally I doubt that) but in my experience many women are negatively affected by it when they move on and realise they had been selling themselves short.

 

[Muslimwoman]

LOL!!! I make damn sure no man who was ever involved with me forgets me...not even if he wants to!!!

I am sure you wish to believe that

oh and that's called stalking LOL

 

[Raksha]

I am sure you wish to believe that

oh and that's called stalking LOL

Now that's funny! But I'm not going to explain why.

 

[Saltmeister]

These abuses are not the result of WOMEN having too much freedom, but of MEN still having too much power over them, and of a patriarchal, misogynistic legal system in many countries which protects the abusers rather than the victims.

I don't think it's necessarily men having too much power over women. I think it's men not understanding the consequences of what they are doing. It's men thinking they are entitled to certain things that they think the women can offer. I won't dispute that there are patriarchal societies and legal systems that protect abusers, but even in a non-patriarchal society, women can still suffer.

Actually in a non-patriarchal society, both can suffer. Women can abuse men and men can abuse women. Women can abuse men thinking that they are "entitled" to more things, living in a more equal society, and that the man should provide it. Men can abuse women thinking that they are not really abusing the woman, that what they are asking for is reasonable. They live in a society of gender equality. They are not beating up the women, so if they feel justified in asking for what they demand, they may put pressure on the women.

The sense of entitlement gives a person a feeling of authority over another person. I think a lot of domestic abuse starts with emotional abuse. The violence comes much later when a lot of damage has already been caused.

Emotional abuse could include things like, "You're stupid . . . you're ugly . . . you're an idiot . . . " It could include threats, insults, bullying and harrassment.

Abuse of women comes from the arrogant attitude of entitlement in a man, the belief that the woman owes you something when she very well may not. This belief may not be realistic. It may not take into consideration what the woman feels. Belief in entitlement asks more of another human being than you might reasonably ask of yourself.

It's an irrational attitude, but I can certainly understand why people have it. I think at an earlier part of my life I had it myself.

You probably don't think you're a misogynist (not talking about "you," Raksha, because I know you're a woman -- just generally). I don't think you need to be. I don't think it's misogynism that actually causes abuse of women in many relationships. I think it happens when men at a particular part of their lives entered into a relationship without thinking carefully what they could offer. They wanted a girlfriend or marriage because society expected it of them. They were under social pressure from their family and friends to get one. They didn't go into it because they really believed they were ready to offer someone love. It was more of an ego trip.

They get into a relationship to impress their friends. They do it more for their own sense of pride than because they really think they are capable of love. For a while things are ok, but slowly, it becomes more and more work and they are afraid that they will lose the person that has become so important for their sense of pride. The woman wants to leave the relationship. They become paranoid and fight back.

I don't know if all relationships where the man fights back out of jealousy or fear of abandonment are for pride. Maybe it wasn't pride that got them into the relationship. Maybe they're attached to the woman in the relationship.

But if you have to personally attack, insult, bully, harrass and threaten someone, your pride has got to have a lot to do with it. I don't know why else I would do that to another human being.

because after all--men have always had that freedom. MEN have to be taught from childhood that their are responsible for their own sexual feelings and their own sexual behavior, just as they are responsible for their own behavior in all other areas.

I used to think people didn't have sex until they got married. What a shock it was to learn at the age of twenty on a discussion on the Internet that some people thought that losing your virginity was an indication of your worth as a person, rather than the other way round. I thought that not having sex before marriage and keeping yourself "pure" made you a "better person." Well, I found that a lot of people didn't agree with me on that.

I had the same attitude on this whether it was men or women, but I always believed that women were more reserved in their sexual conduct. Women tended to hold back. I was disappointed that men were wanting sex, that men were not holding back. I often saw in movies and TV shows that women were more defensive and guarded with what men wanted to do with them. I was disgusted that the men were so desperate for sex. I thought they were degrading themselves. It was embarrassing to watch. (That's why there are so many teenage fathers.)

I'm more concerned about what men do sexually with their bodies than what women do. It makes no sense for me to judge what women do if I am not a woman.

Ok, the next thing I am going to say is going to sound a bit weird . . . but . . . I find the idea of sex as something you would actually do to be revolting and disgusting. (Well, I'm a virgin. I have no sexual experience.) I am aware that never having done it before has a big influence on my feelings on this, but there are so many other reasons why I am so disgusted with the idea of sex as something you would actually do.

When I see advertisements on television, the Internet and in my email about Viagra, penis enlargement and erectile dysfunction, when I read about divorces and relationship problems, it makes me wonder why people are so obsessed about sex. Why do people want it? Sex to me seems to be an awful and horrible phenomenon that can ruin people's lives.

The fact that a woman can say "that was great" but be secretly thinking that you're no good with sex or that she thinks you're a bad kisser -- that just turns me off the idea of sex as something you would actually do. I know of course that is hardly what women want, but physically expression of one's passion for someone seems like a big issue for many (there could be other things wrong with the relationship). Many people feel judged for it. Many men feel like they have to perform. It's like the male equivalent of women wanting to lose weight. Women are judged for their body shape and men are judged for their virility and power to give pleasure.

I might as well not have sex at all and I am glad I never gave my body away to another person!! To those of you who have already done it it's probably going to not be a big deal. You're past it. But for me, the fact that sex is so awful for so many people, I don't feel very excited about it. The idea of sticking a part of my body in someone else's body just repels me.

You will probably infer from this that don't know much about women. Most of what I understand about males and females comes from books, television and the Internet. I'm more intellectual than sexual. When it comes to the importance it has in my life, my brain (pardon me) is larger than my penis.

 

[iBrian]

Have you ever considered whether we now have too much freedom and whether that is taking society in the right direction? Considering the number of sexual assaults, rapes, peodophile groups, trafficking in the sex trade, drugs related to prostitution, etc that we now see so prevelent in our society?

They seem to happen everywhere - simply that some countries are more open than others, not least when they are democratically accountable.

Remember when Saudi Arabia used to claim - until relatively recently - that the country did not suffer from any kind of terrorism, and blamed any disturbance as being caused by Western oil workers smuggling in alcohol? Some countries are only interested in projecting an image, rather than being truthful.

 

[Muslimwoman]

I think it's men not understanding the consequences of what they are doing.

Hi Salty

Sorry can't agree with this, makes men sound like gibbering simpletons ... oh hang on a minute LOL.

It's men thinking they are entitled to certain things that they think the women can offer.

Now this I agree with and was thinking about it last night. I remember reading a dating blog and a man had written in saying he just lost his job, should he join a dating site or wait until he gets a new job.

The man who writes the blog had said .. wait until you get a job (talk about bashing someone while they are down). There were then lots of comments by women stating that they would not date a man without a job, why should they work to keep him!!! (yet half of these women would be on dating sites looking for a rich guy so while he was at work she could go shopping).

Perhaps now that women are working they are beginning to understand this feeling of entitlement. I work, I provide, therefore I am entitled to something in return.

In patriarchal societies religion and laws are generally interpreted by men and you are right they will often protect and even sympathise with abusers .. because if they don't it just mean men are wrong about something and we can't be having that can we.

This feeling of entitlement is often taken to extreme. I remember speaking to a man who was not working and his wife was, yet he expected her to clean and cook when she got home because "she is the woman it is her role and I am her protector" .. when I pointed out that religiously he was also her provider he said "this is 2009, women can work". I then said but if she is the provider she is surely entitled to all the rights you would have if you were the provider and he said "you're a woman so you wouldn't understand" ... the hypocracy was lost on him.

an indication of your worth as a person, rather than the other way round. I thought that not having sex before marriage and keeping yourself "pure" made you a "better person."

Aha well done, I was wracking my brains after I switched off last night, trying to think of how I can describe my experience of donning niqab and well done you have done it for me.

I regained my sense of self worth. Men used to speak to my cleavage but I started wearing hijab and my cleavage was no longer on show they had to look me in the eye. When I progressed to niqab they were then forced to deal with my mind. With each layer of clothes I put on the more I began to repect myself and feel a new sense of worth.

My self worth stopped being about my outside appearance and started being about my inner being ... it was a revelation for me and one I will not give up easily.

They seem to happen everywhere - simply that some countries are more open than others, not least when they are democratically accountable

Totally agree it is happening everywhere Brian and as a woman I damned well object.

However, we were led to believe that a free sexually open society would stop all this and quite clearly it hasn't.

Patriarchal societies limit it but only because women are not generally allowed to be in a position where they can be attacked and heaven help a woman who finds herself in such a position over there.

Until we find a solution I shall stay hidden and safe.