A phone conversation with a muslim missionary

No rodger, once an act has been committed, it's very difficult to reverse time and choose an alternate course... it's even harder to accomplish when you're dead.

Of course, if you've discovered how to travel through time and rise from the grave, perhaps you should share it with the rest of us.

I think you are evading answering my question.
It has nothing to do about whether or not they can come back.
It has everything to do about being able to choose not to commit suicide, all influences, and lack of influences being considered.

I maintain they could not have chosen not to commit suicide at that point in time when they actually did it.
 
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I think you are evading answering my question.

I'm not evading your question. You're literally asking if you can change the course of time and undo an act after it's been done!

Rodger, can you eat something and then choose not to have eaten it? Can you poop and then choose not to have pooped? Can you ask self-evident questions and then choose not to have asked self-evident questions? I think it's pretty safe to assume that once an act has been done that you cannot turn back the clock and choose to have not done it!

The issue has never been about what happens after a choice has been made. As the saying goes, "What is done is done." The issue is about the moments before the choice is actually acted upon. That is where free will exists.
 
The so-called "weakest" [influence on the] electron at some point in time became the strongest [influence on the] electron.
I edited your text for what I take you to be meaning.
But how does the weaker "become" the stronger, when nothing whatsoever about the material traits of those influences has changed? In my example, influence A is attraction to a nearer, and influence B attraction to a farther, positive charge. If the relative distances do not change, how does B "become" the stronger influence? This can only be accounted for in terms of something independent of the distribution of the particles in space-time, something that we cannot observe.
If such is the case, then how can you be sure that two identical people contemplating suicide under the exact same material conditions (we all agree that arranging for two different people to be in the "exact same" conditions is practically impossible, as opposed to the electron case; but we are assuming the hypothetical anyway), including every perception and every memory and every internal state of chemical imbalance or whatever, will reach the same jump-or-not-jump decision? Perhaps the same material influences which failed to prevail in the one person's case will, for reasons we cannot observe, prevail for the other; and then you can make your after-the-fact declaration that these influences "became stronger", but they "became stronger" freely, that is, in a way which is not determined by anything material.
 
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I'm not evading your question. You're literally asking if you can change the course of time and undo an act after it's been done!

Rodger, can you eat something and then choose not to eat it? Can you poop and then choose not to poop? Can you ask self-evident questions and then choose not to have asked self evident questions? I think it's pretty safe to assume that once an act has been done that you cannot turn back the clock and choose to have not done it!

The issue has never been about what happens after a choice has been made. As the saying goes, "What is done is done." The issue is about the moments before the choice is actually acted upon. That is where free will exists.

No, the issue is that the suicide victim could not have chosen not to commit suicide, any more than anyone else could have helped making the choices that they made in the past. Because the strongest combination of influnces CAUSED them to make that choice.
 
I edited your text for what I take you to be meaning.
But how does the weaker "become" the stronger, when nothing whatsoever about the material traits of those influences has changed? In my example, influence A is attraction to a nearer, and influence B attraction to a farther, positive charge. If the relative distances do not change, how does B "become" the stronger influence? This can only be accounted for in terms of something independent of the distribution of the particles in space-time, something that we cannot observe.
If such is the case, then how can you be sure that two identical people contemplating suicide under the exact same material conditions (we all agree that arranging for two different people to the in the "exact same" conditions is practically impossible, as opposed to the electron case; but we are assuming the hypothetical anyway), including every perception and every memory and every internal state of chemical imbalance or whatever, will reach the same jump-or-not-jump decision? Perhaps the same material influences which failed to prevail in the one person's case will, for reasons we cannot observe, prevail for the other; and then you can make your after-the-fact declaration that these influence "became stronger", but they "became stronger" freely, that is, in a way which is not determined by anything material.

Whatever occurs, happens because the strongest combination of influences CAUSED them to occur.
 
During the act of making a choice, it is not possible for you to choose something that is not having the strongest influence on your mind.

I maintain that is logically impossible. Thus, no "free will."

The combined influence of internal preference, i.e. finally deciding what we want MOST after due deliberation, plus external persuasive considerations will CAUSE all choices to occur inevitably.

The exact same set of influences in the exact same situation (if that were possible) would always produce the exact same choice in the exact same person.

That is why it is not even possible to have chosen differently than we did at any given point in time.
 
Do you think it is possible that a person who has committed suicide could have chosen not to, all influences, or lack of influences being considered?

Perhaps you should have worded your question differently. It would have been more accurate to have said...

Do you think it is possible that a person who [is thinking about committing] suicide [to] have chosen not to, all influences, or lack of influences being considered?

Isn't that a more accurate way to word it?
 
The exact same set of influences in the exact same situation (if that were possible) would always produce the exact same choice in the exact same person.
We don't know whether that is true or not. You keep repeating it, over and over, but you have never given any reason for believing it. So it is inappropriate for you to say
That is why...
This just amounts to, "It's TRUE, dammit! That's why it's true."
 
Perhaps you should have worded your question differently. It would have been more accurate to have said...
Do you think it is possible that a person who [is thinking about committing] suicide [to] have chosen not to, all influences, or lack of influences being considered?
Isn't that a more accurate way to word it?

Explain why you think there is a difference.
 
During the act of making a choice, it is not possible for you to choose something that is not having the strongest influence on your mind.

I maintain that is logically impossible. Thus, no "free will."

The combined influence of internal preference, i.e. finally deciding what we want MOST after due deliberation, plus external persuasive considerations will CAUSE all choices to occur inevitably.

The exact same set of influences in the exact same situation (if that were possible) would always produce the exact same choice in the exact same person.

That is why it is not even possible to have chosen differently than we did at any given point in time.

Rodger, do you really think we need to hear your mantra repeated again? Do you think upon hearing it for the 101st time we're going to smack ourselves on the forehead and cry, "OH! THAT'S what he's been telling me all along!

Please. We've heard it. We know your position. You really don't have to keep repeating it over and over.

But I know you will... must be more of those strong influences at work. :rolleyes:
 
We don't know whether that is true or not. You keep repeating it, over and over, but you have never given any reason for believing it. So it is inappropriate for you to say

This just amounts to, "It's TRUE, dammit! That's why it's true."

Quite right. "It's TRUE, dammit! That's why it's true."
It's self evident to me.
Not to you.
But to me it's self-evident that it is true.
 
Rodger, do you really think we need to hear your mantra repeated again? Do you think upon hearing it for the 101st time we're going to smack ourselves on the forehead and cry, "OH! THAT'S what he's been telling me all along!

Please. We've heard it. We know your position. You really don't have to keep repeating it over and over.

But I know you will... must be more of those strong influences at work. :rolleyes:

Nope, you don't need to hear my mantra any more at all.
In fact, the strongest influence may CAUSE you to leave this discussion.
But what fun would that be? :)
 
Nope, you don't need to hear my mantra any more at all.
In fact, the strongest influence may CAUSE you to leave this discussion.
But what fun would that be? :)

Well, I'd certainly spare myself from your incessant repeating of posts.

That would be pleasant.

Or you could find original ways to phrase your argument.

That would work for me too.
 
Well, I'd certainly spare myself from your incessant repeating of posts.

That would be pleasant.

Or you could find original ways to phrase your argument.

That would work for me too.

I thought my illustration of suicide was a strong way to phrase my argument.

No suicide victim could possibly have changed their mind, all influences and lack of influences being considered.
 
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In fact, the strongest influence may CAUSE you to leave this discussion.

Rodger, I would never dream of trying to convince a Christian to become a Buddhist. So I do have to wonder why I would spend another moment trying to convince you that your are wrong about your article of faith.

Frankly, I can't come up a reason.

So... continue praying to your God... maybe even give it a blood sacrifice now and then (virgins are always a good idea). But really, good luck with it. Like most religions it satisfies the true believers and leaves those on the outside befuddled.

Peace out, dawg.

keep repeating that mantra whenever you can. I'll bet Bobx would love to hear it again.

Out.

(Thanks for the suggestion. I was getting really tired of the thread. Gad! What nonsense!)
 
Rodger, I would never dream of trying to convince a Christian to become a Buddhist. So I do have to wonder why I would spend another moment trying to convince you that your are wrong about your article of faith.

Frankly, I can't come up a reason.

So... continue praying to your God... maybe even give it a blood sacrifice now and then (virgins are always a good idea). But really, good luck with it. Like most religions it satisfies the true believers and leaves those on the outside befuddled.

Peace out, dawg.

keep repeating that mantra whenever you can. I'll bet Bobx would love to hear it again.

Out.

(Thanks for the suggestion. I was getting really tired of the thread. Gad! What nonsense!)

My best response.

THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html
 
The mechanism by which quantum-indeterminacies are magnified to create differences at the macroscopic level is starting to be understood. Eukaryotic cells have structures called "microtubules" with charged poles whereby they link and unlink to accomplish basic motions; Roger Penrose noted that in some special microtubules in the neurons, the tubulin acts as a kind of "Faraday cage" isolating the molecules inside from external electric fields, so that the probabilities of discharging-or-not-discharging are not driven to 99.999% or 0.001% but rather are left free. Penrose speculated that, while most neurons base their decisions to fire-or-not-fire on what the synaptically-connected neighboring neurons are doing, some special neurons may be free to fire-or-not-fire based on quantum-indeterminate states of their microtubules, and these would then drive a cascade of neuron firings. Max Tegmark criticized this hypothesis, based on findings that such special microtubules turn out not to be at all unique to neurons, found even in amoebas, so that they can hardly be responsible for whatever is special about human consciousness. I would argue, however, that this may be telling us that even amoebas have some degree of free will, that their decisions to extend and retract pseudopods are not something that a computer program could replicate; they may not have a large scope of action, but the actions available to them are free (prokaryotes on the other hand appear to be pure automata).
We will see: at least I want to make plain to you that when I talk about empirically verifying this kind of hypothesis, I am talking about tangible things which can be researched in the lab.

The assumption being that there is indeed something fundamentally different or "special" about human consciousness versus the amoebas. It reminds me of Bell's critique of those who place too much importance on the wave collapse in QM. I think he asked something like "was the wave waiting thousands of millions of years to collapse until the advent of the first man? Or did it wait a little longer for the first PhD student?"

Maybe the levels of neurons simply determine the "level" of consciousness the subject has. The more you have, the more "awake" you are.

Not just to account for free will (for those of us who believe in such a thing) but to account for any of the quantum-indeterminacies, some form of "hidden variables" are required, which are distinct from, and strictly uncontrolled by, the distribution of particles in space-time.
Seems ironic that in order to make a theory deterministic, we need to look for non-material "hidden variables". Or maybe we're just looking at ball from the wrong angle....

Maybe Quantum Chaos can provide a link between local realism and Quantum Mechanics? After all, if chaotic behavior is being reflected in any system, then it follows that local realism should also be true at that level. And if a quantum system can be shown to be behaving in a positivist manner, then it should follow that all processes in that system are material and all the variables are controlled by the distribution of particles in space time.


Well no, in terms of the analogy they are not "pieces" because they are not "living on the board" and not subject to the "rules of chess"; I am referring to the "hidden variables" which are not material, not directly observable, subject to some different rules which obviously are harder to learn about. Pointing out within the analogy that the "players" might turn out to be computer programs is meant to concede that the hidden rules for the hidden variables might, possibly, turn out to be some kind of superdeterministic system as you, following Bell, think most reasonable to assume; I am conceding that I don't have evidence to rule that out.
Oh, okay. Gotcha.

I commend to you Lee Smolin's The Trouble with Physics, discussing the stagnation of the last few decades. He laments that most physics journals have explicit policies against accepting any more articles about "foundational" problems in quantum mechanics (the whole "what does it all meeeeean?"), and even those that don't hardly publish anything on it, banishing the subject to the philosophy journals; young physicists are discouraged from thinking about it, told instead to just "Shut up and calculate!"
I read an article about this very problem on DIGG some time ago. From what I remember, it said something about the proliferation of "too much information". The editors of journals simply don't have any time to go over the (literally) hundreds of entries they have to sort out, or they don't devote enough time or energy that they should.

I agree with the view that the problem is more general, and that the editors themselves aren't the only ones to blame. It's the entire educational system, the way it focuses on force feeding information but doesn't bother telling students how to sort it out so it can become knowledge. This is why if you ask any question that is out of the box , the T.As get totally stumped (and this is true of any discipline these days, but may be even more pronounced in the sciences)

But then again, there is just so much information a person has to absorb before he even gets the opportunity to do original research, that by the time he gets to that point, he/she is already a specialist, which is probably why we have no more polymaths these days...

Anyways, thanks for the link, didn't know there was a book.
 
Re: A phone conversation with a muslim missionary?

I sorta feel like my thread got hijacked. :(

Whatever in the world does the last post have to do with my conversation with a Muslim missionary. :confused:

In what way does it shed light on why millions of Christians and millions of Muslims think each other are going to a hell of suffering in the afterlife?

Guess I'm just trying to get my subject back on track. :)
 
In what way does it shed light on why millions of Christians and millions of Muslims think each other are going to a hell of suffering in the afterlife?

But that's exactly what we're trying to do man,

find that hidden variable that makes people stupid ;-)
 
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