Prayer

[Thomas]

These are some thoughts on prayer from the Perennial Tradition:

Man’s only possible relationship with Beyond-Being is in pure Intellection and, in principle – Deo volente – in contemplative concentration. The relationship with Being – and it is this alone that religions have in view – is realized through prayer, the virtues, comportment; the same relationship will be realized indirectly through an Avatara, or quite generally, through a Symbol.

Meditation / Concentration / Prayer:
These three words epitomize the spiritual life, while at the same time indicating its principal modes. Meditation, from our standpoint, is an activity of the intelligence in view of understanding universal truths; concentration, for its part, is an activity of the will in view of assimilating these truths or realities existentially, as it were; and prayer in its turn is an activity of the soul directed towards God.

Prayer:
The remembrance of God is at the same time a forgetting of oneself; conversely, the ego is a kind of crystallization of forgetfulness of God. The brain is, as it were, the organ of this forgetfulness; it is like a sponge filled with images of this world of dispersion and of heaviness, filled too with the tendencies of the ego towards both dispersal and hardening. As for the heart, it is the latent remembrance of God, hidden deep down in our “I”; prayer is as if the heart, risen to the surface, came to take the place
of the brain which then sleeps with a holy slumber; this slumber unites and soothes, and its most elementary trace in the soul is peace. “I sleep, but my heart waketh.”

Prayer (aim of individual):
The aim of individual prayer is not only to obtain particular favors, but also the purification of the soul: it loosens psychological knots or, in other
words, dissolves subconscious coagulations and drains away many a secret poison; it externalizes before God the difficulties, failures and tensions of the soul, which presupposes that the soul be humble and upright; this externalization – carried out in face of the Absolute – has the virtue of reestablishing equilibrium and restoring peace, in a word, of opening us to grace.

Prayer (quintessential):
The important thing to grasp here is that actualisation of the consciousness of the Absolute, namely the “remembrance of God” or “prayer,” insofar as
it brings about a fundamental confrontation of creature and Creator, anticipates every station on the two axes. It is already a death and a meeting with God and it places us already in Eternity; it is already something of Paradise and even, in its mysterious and “uncreated” quintessence, something of God. Quintessential prayer brings about an
escape from the world and from life, and thereby confers a new and Divine sap upon the veil of appearances and the current of forms, and a fresh meaning to our presence amid the play of phenomena.

Whatever is not here is nowhere, and whatever is not now will never be. As is this moment in which I am free to choose God, so will be death, Judgment and Eternity. Likewise in this center, this Divine point which I am free to choose in the face of this boundless and multiple world, I am already in invisible Reality.

From the Glossary of Terms used by Frithjof Schuon

Nor infallible ... but food for thought.

Thomas

 

[Amergin]

These are some thoughts on prayer from the Perennial Tradition:

Man’s only possible relationship with Beyond-Being is in pure Intellection and, in principle – Deo volente

prayer + ibuprofen helps headaches

prayer + carbamazepine reduces epileptic seizures

prayer + insulin controls diabetes

prayer + LSD helps you see Jesus

prayer + dulcolax relieves constipation

prayer + a joint makes you happy.

Amergin

 

[OAT]

Prayer is a symptom of something amiss in the concept of an almighty, self-sufficient creator god.

 

[17th Angel]

prayer + ibuprofen helps headaches

prayer + carbamazepine reduces epileptic seizures

prayer + insulin controls diabetes

prayer + LSD helps you see Jesus

prayer + dulcolax relieves constipation

prayer + a joint makes you happy.

Amergin

Prayer + Tetrahydrocannabinol = Is the perfect mix, the right eyes and mind to proceed. (I am sure some would say Prayer + Faith is the perfect mix.... But, don't knock it till you've tried it.)

 

[wil]

Namaste Thomas, nice thread.

We sing.

Our thoughts are prayers,
and we are always praying.
Our thoughts are prayers,
take charge of what you're saying.
Seek a higher consciousness,
a state of peacefulness,
and always know that G!d is there,
and every thought becomes a prayer.

So I ask our kids, and others...if you are praying for a new relationship with your parents or significant other.... or whatever you are praying when you sit down in silence, or however... but if you are praying one thing...and then when you are walking and talking you are saying and thinking another... Which do you think G!d hears more of? And which do you truly keep in your heart if your thoughts don't match your 'prayers'?

A nice mantra....

"Would I be pleased if what I am currently thinking was manifested before me right now?"

makes one consider...

Now for me meditation, sitting quiet, emptying my mind, is my time to listen to guidance from spirit.

And prayer, outloud or in my head talking to G!d is almost like talking to a counselor...the only response I get until I shut up is, 'hmmmm ... ok ... and ... and ... I see ... and ... oh ... hmmmmm'

Prayer is a symptom of something amiss in the concept of an almighty, self-sufficient creator god.

Namaste Oat,

Interesting....symptom of something amiss. I'd say perception of something amiss. That is one of the things I contemplate about prayer.

If we pray a beseeching prayer... "Oh G!d, I need money for rent" or "Help me on this test" or "I need you to make sure my mother doesn't find out" or "___________ is so sick, you need to make them well"

This type of prayer to me is saying "Hey G!d, I know you know it all, can see all, but you basically screwed up here, and I need you to fix it, after all this person shouldn't die, or I should have more money or I shouldn't get caught" "Yes, your servant here knows more than you about these things and you oughta get on the stick and make it right"

Now for me... I'll give thanks that my perception to change about the thing that is troubling me, I'll be greatful for the understanding, I'll be thankful to be able to learn from this occurance in my life...

Or that is what I'd like to do... I don't always make the mark..

prayer + ibuprofen helps headaches

prayer + carbamazepine reduces epileptic seizures

prayer + insulin controls diabetes

prayer + LSD helps you see Jesus

prayer + dulcolax relieves constipation

prayer + a joint makes you happy.

Namaste Amergin,

Yes, G!d is in all things, and there is the 'pray but move your feet' notion. But some of us don't simply rely on the material for all that ails us. Some of us do. I don't need a joint to make myself happy, that is a choice. I don't need LSD to commune with my Christ nature. But is G!d involved in our medical profession and everything else in the universe? I surely believe so.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

In the past I've pondered what prayer actually does. I know I didn't get that pony I prayed for when I was eight. Of course there are different kinds of prayer, or different processes that people engage in during the activity they label "prayer", so it's hard to generalize. I like this partial definition from Thomas' OP:

Prayer:
The remembrance of God is at the same time a forgetting of oneself; conversely, the ego is a kind of crystallization of forgetfulness of God. The brain is, as it were, the organ of this forgetfulness; it is like a sponge filled with images of this world of dispersion and of heaviness, filled too with the tendencies of the ego towards both dispersal and hardening.

I think that perhaps prayer is an opening up to a larger, less immediately causal mental space: sort of a larger auditorium of thought where the immediate refraction of ego-thought processes isn't so pronounced. Within that larger space the self has room to decompress and expand- sort of unwrap, soften, and stretch out into dimensions of higher consciousness that are unavailable or un-accessible from within the compact, basic-function survival-efficiency mode that we normally keep ourselves penned up in. Whether the construct that facilitates this unfolding is God as a penultimate "Other", or one's Higher self doesn't, to my mind much matter. Whatever narrative or model works to facilitate the process...

Chris

 

[path_of_one]

Chris, I'm with you. You stated my own thoughts more or less perfectly. Prayer, along with meditation, is my opening up to whatever-it-is that causes an expansion beyond ego. God, my higher self, the flow of the universe. It doesn't much matter to me what people call it.

I never really understood the concept of intercessory prayer in Christianity, or prayer-for-something. If God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, then why do we need to call His/Her attention to something? Why ask when S/He already knows all our desires and innermost thoughts?

As a Pagan, what would be brought in intercessory prayer becomes the focus of magic. The value is in taking our own intentions, desires, and so on and thinking them through carefully, making them fully conscious thoughts, and using our will and focus to direct them. Rather than act as though it is the job of some deity to make everything "just so" for us, it is our own responsibility and our own power. We can call on deities for assistance (though many do not), but there is never a presupposition that just because we are doing so, our prayer ought to be answered.

In Christianity, I often felt that the average lay-person's understanding of prayer was pretty far off from what pastors, priests, and other more learned folks would describe. I'd have a conversation with some priest and agree wholeheartedly, but then go to Bible studies with lay-persons and all of a sudden they're taking a half hour or an hour to pray for God to heal so-and-so, give someone a job, and whatnot. I just always thought- not everyone is meant to be healed. Not everyone is meant to find that job right now. And none of this is worth much if the person isn't willing. Praying for some other person's salvation isn't worth much, because we can't change someone else's soul. That is their own journey and choice. Besides, oughtn't we be focusing on the planks in our own eyes?

Now, if someone requests intercessory prayer, I suppose that is different. But it still looks suspiciously like group magic workings to me. Indeed, in many New Thought or New Age circles wherein magic is de-ritualized, or in Catholic circles wherein such prayers may be accompanied by lighting a candle at a saint's altar... there is virtually no difference, except perhaps that a Pagan may have a different understanding of the forces on which s/he draws and the personal responsibility involved. But in terms of action and intent, it is extremely similar.

 

[arthra]

Dynamics of Prayer..

Prayer is central for Baha'is at least every day but there were some interesting guidelines which Shoghi Effendi was reported to given to a Baha'i that might be worth sharing here about prayer...

Prayer is always a timely subject and for this reason I wanted to share the following advisory on the Dynamics of Prayer recommended by Shoghi Effendi the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith. It would seem anyone could apply these Steps regardless of their religious affiliation:


Step 1: Pray and meditate about it. Use the prayers of the Messengers of God (Jesus, Mohammed, Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Zoroaster, the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh) as they have the greatest power. Then remain in silence of contemplation for a few minutes.

Step 2: Arrive at a decision and hold this. This decision is usually born during the contemplation. It may seem almost impossible of accomplishment, but if it seems to be an answer to prayer or a way of solving the problem, then immediately take the next step.

Step 3: Have determination to carry the decision through. Many fail here. The decision, budding into determination, is blighted and instead becomes a wish or vague longing. When determination is born, immediately take the next step.

Step 4: Have Faith and confidence that the power will flow through you and the right way will appear, the door will open, the right thought, the right message, the right principle or the right book will be given you. Have confidence, and the right thing will come to your need. Then, as you rise from prayer, take at once Step 5.

Step 5: Act. Act as though it had all been answered. Then act with tireless, ceaseless energy. And as you act, you, yourself, will become a magnet, which will attract more power to your being, until you become an unobstructed channel for Divine Power to flow through you. Many pray but do not remain for the last half of the first step. Some who meditate arrive at a decision, but fail to hold it. Few have the determination to carry the decision through, still fewer have the confidence that the right thing will come to their need. But how many remember to act as though it had all been answered? How true are those words-
"greater than the prayer is the spirit in which it is uttered and greater than the way it is uttered is the spirit in which it is carried out."

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

First, I would like to thank Thomas for introducing me to the Perennial Tradition, which I hadn't heard of until now. Anyone interested may read more here.

I know intercessory prayer presents problems, for all the reasons given above. Far better to contemplate in silence and reconcile our spirit with the One. However in practice I find I can't help myself. When someone I know is seriously ill or in any kind of difficulty and I have exhausted all other means of help, I have to try prayer. How could I not? Even if God materialised in front of me and told me I was wasting my time I would try to drive a bargain. If I didn't do this, I would be failing in my care. I don't know if prayer "works", but I will pray anyway.

I did once pray long and hard (along with others) over several days for a colleague expected to die imminently. She amazingly survived. I can't ever know if there was a causal link, but while there is a sliver of a chance I will carry on.

Incidentally, I hate it when people say "We just lift them to you, Lord". I say "Lord make them well again". I'm only being honest, I don't want them to die, and God can only say No, at worst.

 

[OAT]

Namaste Wil,

Here's my perception then:

If G!d is self-sufficient, he has no need to create man. Since man exists, who is he praying to?

If G!d is omniscent, he has no need for man to tell him their needs and problems through prayer. What then is the purpose of prayer?

If prayer is an instrument handed to man by G!d that man may by prayer humble himself before G!d, then that G!d can't be great unless G!d thinks his position at the top of the pile can be usurped, in which case how can he be great?

Ergo, prayer to God is oxymoronic.

 

[path_of_one]

I'm not Wil, but I had to ask...

If G!d is self-sufficient, he has no need to create man. Since man exists, who is he praying to?

Why is necessity the only reason for creativity?

If G!d is omniscent, he has no need for man to tell him their needs and problems through prayer. What then is the purpose of prayer?

Intercessory prayer isn't for God. It's for people. It makes people feel better. It's like speaking to a therapist without paying $100. Voicing our concerns brings them to consciousness, which allows us to better deal with them. Prayer is helpful to the individual psychologically, whether or not it is helpful metaphysically. Other practices (meditation, magic, etc.) can also do this. We have options.

If prayer is an instrument handed to man by G!d that man may by prayer humble himself before G!d, then that G!d can't be great unless G!d thinks his position at the top of the pile can be usurped, in which case how can he be great?

I don't think, for most people, prayer has much to do with humility. After all, the presupposition is that God will listen and maybe even grant our requests. That doesn't seem to be a very humbling position for us.

 

[OAT]

I'm not Wil, but I had to ask...
Why is necessity the only reason for creativity?

Otherwise we can attribute purposelessness to creation.

Intercessory prayer isn't for God. It's for people. It makes people feel better.

I am not denying that. Prayer is not the only thing that makes people feel better. But there is no need for prayer if the function of prayer is to make a request to G!d because G!d by definition would already know even before you pray.

I don't think, for most people, prayer has much to do with humility. After all, the presupposition is that God will listen and maybe even grant our requests. That doesn't seem to be a very humbling position for us.

Overall, I was making the point that "praying to God" is oxymoronic. The possibility of prayer as an instrument of God for humbling man, like my earlier arguments, is meant to highlight the oxymoronic nature and nothing else.

 

[path_of_one]

Otherwise we can attribute purposelessness to creation.

I would not agree. Art is arguably not necessary, but that doesn't mean it has no purpose. Life would be pretty boring if meaning were only found in what is necessary. Or perhaps everything is necessary.

My own conceptualization of God as panentheistic, really- rather monistic- doesn't really have the mythos of creating creation, as much as unfolding into the totality of becoming.

But there is no need for prayer if the function of prayer is to make a request to G!d because G!d by definition would already know even before you pray.

I agree. What I'm pointing out is the function of prayer really isn't to make a request to God.

I guess I could see how your arguments demonstrate the oxymoronic quality of intercessory prayer. However, the diversity of how prayer (and God) is understood cross-religiously makes such arguments quite limited. Prayer and its functions, in general, is a much bigger topic.

 

[OAT]

I would not agree. Art is arguably not necessary, but that doesn't mean it has no purpose. Life would be pretty boring if meaning were only found in what is necessary. Or perhaps everything is necessary.

Well then, I would be pretty annoyed with God if I was created without purpose but merely as God's art. My happiness and suffering would be purposeless but are merely God's art.

There could be those who enjoy being God's art but not me.

 

[wil]

Namaste Wil,

Here's my perception then:

If G!d is self-sufficient, he has no need to create man. Since man exists, who is he praying to?

Namaste OAT and thanx Path...big hugz

In my understanding we are praying for our perfection to our perfection...in his image. Jesus is my example of someone who attained Christhood. Whether before birth or after can be argued infinitum....but he is my elder brother, wayshower, trail blazer. Prayer in my mind does not change G!d, but changes me, changes my perception, and through that revises creation, as everything is perception.

If G!d is omniscent, he has no need for man to tell him their needs and problems through prayer. What then is the purpose of prayer?

You got it, 'He' knows what we want before we ask. Again prayer is for me, I give thanx for the knowledge and abundance I have and only ask to open my heart, open my eyes and open my soul to understanding that which I already have.

If prayer is an instrument handed to man by G!d that man may by prayer humble himself before G!d, then that G!d can't be great unless G!d thinks his position at the top of the pile can be usurped, in which case how can he be great?

I'm not one for anthropomorphizing G!d. What I see as G!d is the glory that is all of creation. Do I humble myself before gravity? Yes at the edge of cliff or building, I respect and utilize the laws of nature...G!d is all those laws... we are not punished for our sins but by them. All that is has put things in motion that I cannot change and must learn from.

Ergo, prayer to God is oxymoronic.

If you say so, and believe so, you are correct. But that is for you, not for all.

 

[shawn]

Namaste Wil,

Here's my perception then:

If G!d is self-sufficient, he has no need to create man. Since man exists, who is he praying to?

If G!d is omniscent, he has no need for man to tell him their needs and problems through prayer. What then is the purpose of prayer?

If prayer is an instrument handed to man by G!d that man may by prayer humble himself before G!d, then that G!d can't be great unless G!d thinks his position at the top of the pile can be usurped, in which case how can he be great?

Ergo, prayer to God is oxymoronic.

Prayer is really meditation and conscious intention.
But, as with all things, it has morphed into something quite less than what it is.
Rather, it is people's understanding of it that has done the changing, with it becoming something quite superstitious.
So too with people's understanding of God, reality, and what and why they are.

We live during a dark age currently....the kali yuga, so such stupid ideas are inevitable and hard to dispel.
But not all sleep and truly, this season of ignorance will pass.
Might take a while though.

 

[taijasi]

You can petition the Lord ... with prayer.

You can petition the Lord ... with prayer.

You can petition the Lord ... with prayer.

 

[path_of_one]

Well then, I would be pretty annoyed with God if I was created without purpose but merely as God's art. My happiness and suffering would be purposeless but are merely God's art.

There could be those who enjoy being God's art but not me.

Again, it is your own perception that art, whether God's or a human's, is without purpose. You seem to assume that the only way you (or anything) can have a purpose is through necessity. I am arguing that one can have purpose and meaning, and yet not be necessary.

I do not believe I am necessary, except in some broad cosmic sense, as in "I am a member of a species that is part of an ecological system." But me individually- no, I am not necessary. This does not mean I have no purpose or that my life has no meaning.

Poetry has tons of purpose and meaning, but is unnecessary. Same for art, music, theater... really, aesthetics in general. Further, we didn't really *need* science, technological advances, philosophy, literature, architecture. I mean, even flush toilets and modern medicine, while making life more pleasant, aren't necessary for survival of the species.

I conclude that most of the stuff that is beautiful, worthwhile, enjoyable, pleasurable, and so on is really unnecessary when you come down to it. But without these unnecessary facets of life, existence would seem pretty dull and uncomfortable.

I may be unnecessary, but perhaps my purpose and meaning can be found in beauty and pleasure... and in the connectedness this gives rise to between myself and other beings.

Just a thought. Of course, there is no "right" answer. You are free to believe that art is purposeless if you wish. Happily for me, it exists anyway.

 

[wil]

The concept of being necessary is an interesting one. At the base I think of the circle of life...and how at the least we could be fertilizer for more life and the continuing cycle...but how humans have even screwed that up by building pyramids, embalming, encasing ourselves in boxes and vaults and not sustaining life...

The matter that makes up my body I will insure will provide fertile soil for future life, and it is my hope that my thoughts and contemplations have on average provided fertile soil which beneficially affects the present and will affect future lives as well.

 

[Amergin]

Prayer probably has a tranquilizer effect on people who are fearful or sick. Prayer has no intrinsic power because God is imaginary. One might as well pray to Mother Goose.

Prayer may help the sick person who being depressed, may feel that prayer will persuade God to help him/her.

In some cases like Pentecostal charismatics, and Buddhist meditaters can cause the brain to enter a state of cognitive dissociation that accompanies spiritual "feelings", hallucinations of their god, and suppression of the parietal lobules that define body boundaries and one's location in space. This makes the person feel one with the universe or their god, and the out of body experience.

Prayer does not work in any real external intervention. But its effects on the person praying or meditation may indeed be helpful. In my medical practice for 35 years, although I am atheistic, I did advise many people to pray during illnesses or death of a loved one.

Amergin