American Christians protest mosque at 9-11 site

opening thread said:
Americans are protesting the building of a Mosque near the site of the Twin Towers terrorist bombing on 9-11. AThey are saying that anything Muslim desecrates those who died on 9-11 from Islamic Terrorists. They are saying that Islam is equal to terrorism.
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I understand this from being Christian, and being frustrated about my religion being so opaque to outsiders. To get people to look inside and follow the maze, that is the holy grail for a Christian. The Christians have a LOT of books and a LOT of songs and a LOT of peculiarities, studies and varieties. It is not unreasonable for someone to ask 'What is a Christian?' more than once while they are already Christians. Similarly, as an outsider I cannot say that I understand what its like to be Muslim or what I am to Muslims. They also have a LOT of books and other things they study that no one else does. There is so much for them to study that they leave a lot of it up to Imams, but I can understand that.

To avoid having to introduce yourself by explaining doctrinal complexities, the only thing you can do is show people how you live. In fact the only way for an outsider to get Christianity is to experience a Christian community or at least meet some Christians. Similarly, Muslims feel they must provide a sort of Muslim community, and that is the primary thread in this story. That is what the mosque has to be about. I'm not saying its necessarily a great idea to put it in that spot or that I'd blame NY for saying no. At the same time, NY is a symbol of religious and political freedom. In fact a lot of people around the world think of USA as a great big NY city and that every city here is just like NY. If NY decides not to allow the mosque then it will be making a statement about our country. We walk the knife's edge.
 
Thank you for posting this. We need to remember the terrorists are out to kill and they don't care who they kill. Terrorism didn't exist at the time of Muhammad. I suppose the terrorists consider this Holy War, but if it was truly a war, they have truly gone against Islam and the teachings in Quran and sunnah. The rules for fighting are clear in Islam: only in self-defense and not to cause harm to women or children, trees or animals, for instance. The goal of the terrorists was to instill fear in every American regardless of gender, age or religion. That is a crime against humanity. A horrible crime because the Divine says to kill one person is like killing all humanity.

<3 OS


Snoopy said:
but the mass murder was indiscriminate...
(Muslims killed on 9/11)


s.
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I think that my post was not a slap in the face of your country. I know that all Americans were not among the protesters in New York. I know that all American Christians did not cheer or put up a memorial to Tim McVeigh.

My point is to condemn the terrorism of Evangelical Christians and Extremist Muslims. Actually blaming all Christians and all Muslims for the terrorism of its fringe groups is hypocrisy. A place of worship two blocks from a terrorist attack is not a "slap in the face," except for stupid bigots. The real "slap in the face" for America is the rising of extreme bigotry as happened in Germany in the 1920s and 1930s.

I fear the rise of open loud mouth racist comments in America that seems like a throwback to the 1950s. That is addition to the rise of religious zealotry and hate is frightening. What America needs to do is expose the militias, racist groups, right wing fascists and neo-nazis. They are more extensive and numerous than your mamby-pamby press admits. Of course FOX News brags about it, and gives an audience to the bigots, haters, and right wing-nuts who have a chance of being elected to power.

Amergin
 
oceansongs said:
A horrible crime because the Divine says to kill one person is like killing all humanity.
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On TV the other night there was a Muslim doctor who had treated people injured by the London Tube bombings. And what you say is exactly what she said.

s.
 
Amergin said:
My point is to condemn the terrorism of Evangelical Christians and Extremist Muslims.
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So, every single Christian who is part of an Evangelical denomination or congregation is a terrorist...

Interesting way to put it. Why all the mass hatred on your part?

You claim to oppose bigotry while spewing bigotry.
 
Dogbrain said:
So, every single Christian who is part of an Evangelical denomination or congregation is a terrorist...
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That's as ridiculous as thinking that every member of a fundamentalist Muslim denomination is a terrorist.

Or that every Sicilian is a member of the Mafia.
 
citizenzen said:
That's as ridiculous as thinking that every member of a fundamentalist Muslim denomination is a terrorist.

Or that every Sicilian is a member of the Mafia.
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Nevertheless, it's how he chose to word it.

As far as he is concerned "Evangelical Christian" is the same thing as "Extremist Islamicist".
 

Anti-mosque protests on the rise, say Muslim advocates

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/anti-mosque-protests-on-the-rise-say-muslim-advocates

Opposition to the construction of mosques has skyrocketed in cities and towns across the country, scholars and advocates of Muslim culture tell The Upshot.
Public protests against three planned mosques have made news in the past week: Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin joined others in opposing the building of a mosque a few blocks from the World Trade Center site. Hundreds demonstrated against a proposed mosque in a small town in Tennessee (pictured above). And some residents of Temecula, California, are opposing the local Muslim community's plan to build a bigger mosque, saying it could become a hotbed of radical Islam.
[Photos: See the current World Trade Center site and mosque protesters]
Professor Akbar Ahmed, the Ibn Khaldun Chair of Islamic Studies at American University's School of International Service, is not surprised by the recent spate of public protests. He spent last year traveling to more than 100 mosques in 75 U.S. cities with a team of researchers, and concluded that opposition to mosques, including some attacks on them, is on the rise.
"Everywhere there's a mosque, there's a tension now," Ahmed says.
[Your comments: Should the burqa be banned?]
Ahmed believes most Americans have little idea what goes on inside the approximately 2,000 mosques in the country, which leads to fear and anti-Muslim sentiment. Comments from public figures like Sarah Palin exacerbate the problem, he says.
Palin posted Sunday on Twitter that a planned mosque near the World Trade Center site would "stab hearts." She joined a PAC and family members of some 9-11 victims in vocally objecting to the religious center. "Peace-seeking Muslims, pls understand, Ground Zero mosque is UNNECESSARY provocation; it stabs hearts. Pls reject it in interest of healing," she wrote. (In addition to the mosque, the 13-story, $100 million project would include a swimming pool, gym, and performance space open to everyone, reports ABC News.)
[No churches in Saudi Arabia? Then no mosques near Ground Zero, Gingrich says]
"Sarah Palin's comments again were saying implicitly that mosques are associated with violence and terrorism," Ahmed says, though he adds that he thinks the tension over this proposed mosque is unique due to the "raw wounds" of the 9/11 attacks. "At the highest level, even in America, we have a [former] vice presidential candidate, she can openly make a statement like this."
[U.S. networks refuse to air anti-mosque ads]
Palin defended her statements in a post on Facebook, saying that she is all for religious freedom and tolerance, but that not building the mosque near Ground Zero is an issue of "common moral sense."
[Photos: Photos: See the latest images of Sarah Palin]
Jim Zogby, the head of the Arab-American Institute, a nonprofit research group, said there are not enough people in public life defending American Muslims' right to worship.
"There is very little counter-thrust in the public debate, and the result is, I think, Muslims are becoming increasingly concerned about their security in the country," Zogby says. "This is a worrisome environment. Something's got to give."
Opponents of mosques feel freer now to openly object to the presence of a mosque in their community, says Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Muslim advocacy organization.
"Mosques used to face opposition in the past, but it was usually couched in terms of opposition to parking or traffic," Hooper says. "But you know, it's only recently, I think, that people feel comfortable expressing their bigotry so openly."
Of course, opponents of mosques do not consider themselves bigots, and many are genuinely concerned that mosques may help produce homegrown terrorists. According to the Washington Post, 34 Americans have been charged by U.S. authorities since January 2009 with direct involvement in international terrorism. But in many of these case, it appears the suspects were radicalized via Internet contacts.
Ahmed says the incidents of Americans turning to jihad is a reflection of a "failure in Muslim leadership." He says Muslim religious leaders should have to be trained and certified, since they are in positions of power, often over young congregations. But he adds that opposing mosques at home will only fuel accusations from America's enemies that the country hates Islam and Muslims.
A pastor opposed to the proposed Temecula mosque reflected these fears of homegrown terrorism.
"There is a concern with all the rumors you hear about sleeper cells and all that. Are we supposed to be complacent just because these people say it's a religion of peace?
 
Janz said:
Just substitute Christian Reconstructionism (Dominionism) for Islamist and you will understand how our own freedom in the USA is being threatened by a similar radicalized version of Christianity. See: Dominion Theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Christian Reconstruction is a dangerous fascist like organisation with many names like Theonomy, Job's Army, and Dominionism. It is openly honest about admitting it's anti-American ideology. It preaches Theonomy (Rule by God). That is little different than Iran's Islamic Republic. Nobody has a legitimate status to speak for God, to kill people for God, to suppress freedom because it leads to sin against God.

Some of the Reconstructionists are difficult to distinguish from Christian Identity which shares most of the major views but adds racism to its menu. They have the Order, The Army of God (which has committed terrorism in America.) Eric Rudolph was part of the Army of God movement. Timothy McVeigh was a follower of Christian Identity.

Christian Identity admires Adolph Hitler as a Christian hero who fought for the White Aryan race for God. Hitler said he was doing the work of God in fighting the Jews. All but one of the Nazi ruling elite were admitted Christians except for Martin Bormann (the only non-theist in the Reich government.) Atheists were often sent to the death camps as "anti-social." Jews wore yellow patches or Stars of David. Atheists were forced to ware a black triangle

During the Cold War propagandists wished to hide the anti-Atheist views of Hitler and his inner circle. Thus they could use anti-Atheism as a way of fighting the USSR more than the dictatorship and Socialist economy. Most Americans could not define Socialism correctly. Right Wing Republicans correctly assumed that anti-Atheism inflamed the hatred of the people than an economic system that few could define. I often wonder what would have happened if the USSR redefined Communism as purely political and economic and dropped the Atheism issue. How would the Cold War have gone if it was Christian Communists against Christian Corporation Capitalists.

Amergin

​
 
Amergin said:
Christian Reconstruction is a dangerous fascist like organisation with many names like Theonomy, Job's Army, and Dominionism. It is openly honest about admitting it's anti-American ideology. It preaches Theonomy (Rule by God).

​
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Fair enough, now where is your evidence that all Evangelical Christians are and must be part of "Christian Reconstruction"? After all, that is the bigotry that your choice of language blatantly wallows in.
 
oceansongs said:
A horrible crime because the Divine says to kill one person is like killing all humanity.
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Salam Oceansongs

It's an interesting verse and can demonstrate quite well the thinking behind terrorist groups who use Islam for their purposes. Sorry this is a bit off topic but I found your comments interesting.

Strangely I need to use an anti-Islam website to demonstrate what I mean. In talking about this verse, this web page says:

"But try as you might, you will not find it in a Qur'an, regardless of whether or not you're reading it in its original Arabic or in one of its many English translations. The reason for this is quite simple: the verse in question does not exist."

If Anyone Slew a Person (Quran 5-32) - WikiIslam

Of course the verse does exist and is:

[5:32] Because of this, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. Our messengers went to them with clear proofs and revelations, but most of them, after all this, are still transgressing.

There are loads of websites which claim this verse doesn't say what Muslims say it does because it is speaking in past tense about the Children of Israel but that's the interesting part .. they are doing exactly what terrorists do and are selectively picking verses and reading them literally without any reference to the wider teachings of the Quran or hadith .. ie out of context.

Any good Muslim knows that we are directed in the Quran to believe in the original religion given to the Jewish nation and the Christians and that if this verse was given in the Jewish book then it is something we must follow .. hence so many Muslims using this verse to condemn the actions of the 9/11 bombers.

But if you are trying to show Islam in a bad light or want to commit murder then of course you can say this is simply talking to the Jews and has nothing to do with Muslims. The sword verses are similarly used in this way.

I am not sure that this mosque build is in the most sensitive location but unless we build good mosques and fill them with good Imams then Muslim youth will still be susceptible to internet indoctrination and Salafi teachings.
 
Muslimwoman said:
[5:32] Because of this, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. Our messengers went to them with clear proofs and revelations, but most of them, after all this, are still transgressing.
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Interesting.

Here's a slightly different version I found at The Noble Quran at www.ummah.net...

32. Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allâh by committing the major sins) in the land!.​


Like the Bible, it sounds like people can (and have) interpreted this passage to suit their agenda.

But I do applaud the message.
 
Janz said:
Here is a link to an editorial written by an American Muslim..an interesting perspective.
Mosque unbecoming - NYPOST.com

I am conflicted on this issue so I really can't say what my thoughts are at this time.
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Janz,

Thank you for posting this article. It presents an interesting perspective on Cordoba House, and one I haven't encountered before. I was involved in a debate about this project on another forum about a month ago, and there was quite a bit of knee-jerk Islamophobia to get out of the way before the liberals on that forum could get a clear picture of what Cordoba House was all about and how close it's going to be to Ground Zero (two blocks away).

As usual, the disinformation campaign was being driven by Christian fundamentalists who--as usual--were taking advantage of the situation to push their own brand of theocracy. They have no real interest in religious freedom.

As an American Muslim, this writer already understands that Cordoba House is a cultural center and not simply a "mosque at Ground Zero" as it's been presented in the media. He knows what it is and yet he still opposes it. I thought the reasons for his opposition were very interesting, and I basically agree with them.

Key paragraphs from the article:

This is not about the building of a mosque or a religious facility. It is not about religious freedom. This is about a deep, soulful understanding of what happened to our country on 9/11.

When Americans are attacked, they come together as one, under one flag, under one law against a common enemy that we are not afraid to identify. Religious freedom is central to our nation - and that is why the location of this project is so misguided. Ground Zero is purely about being American. It can never be about being Muslim.

The World Trade Center site represents Ground Zero in America's war against radical Islamists who seek to destroy the American way of life. It is not ground zero of a cultural exchange.

We American Muslims cannot merely passively avoid Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood and its offshoots. We need to ask ourselves: Are we Americans who happen to be Muslim or Muslims blindly demanding to be American?
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"Religious freedom is central to our nation..."

That is so true, and I'm very grateful that at least one American Muslim understands this. The REAL national religion of America is secular humanism, and it takes precedence over all others. Including your religion. Including my religion.

Freedom of religion is now very much under attack by the forces of theocracy, most of whom are trying to misrepresent America as a "Christian nation," which it never was and hopefully never will be--not if I have anything to say about it anyway.

--Linda
 
Not simply a "mosque at Ground Zero" ---No, it's New and improved with all the latest Conveyances and amenities sought by cosmopolitain bon vivants.

And all those non-union migrant workers and insurance companies and tourist boards and architrects and builder supply vendors need the work in these bleak financial times.
 
Raksha said:
The REAL national religion of America is secular humanism
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The real national religion of America is government worship. Look at all the resources expended in order to create temples to government. Look at how politicians always try to identify the government (so long as they are in charge) with anything and everything that is generally deemed to be "good". We are expected to participate in adulatory excesses for our politicians, after all. Look at any political rally.

Political rallies often have more religious fervor than do revivals.
 
Must be something in the air.

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New York City served as the first capitol of the United States of America, and was the site of George Washington's 1789 inauguration as the first President of the United States. It was also where the United States Bill of Rights was ratified.

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http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Was_New_York_City_the_capital_of_the_US_and_when
The first capitol of the United States of America from January 11, 1785 to Autumn 1788, was located at New York's City Hall which was located at "Fraunces Tavern" [54 Pearl Street New York, New York 10004] when the Congress was under the Articles of Confederation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Federal_Hall-Archibald_Robertson.jpg
And then it was relocated, from March 4, 1789 to August 12, 1790, to Federal Hall [Wall Street at Trinity Church] when the Congress was under the Constitution.


Versus,

Córdoba, Spain — An Iberian and Roman city in ancient times, in the Middle Ages it was capital of an Islamic caliphate. During this time Cordoba was one of the largest cities in the world.

It has been estimated that in the latter half of the tenth century Córdoba, with up to 500,000 inhabitants, was then the most populated city in Europe and, perhaps, in the world.

It was captured in 711 by a Muslim army: in 716 it became a provincial capital, depending from the Caliphate of Damascus; In May 766, it was elected as capital of the independent Muslim emirate of al-Andalus, later a Caliphate itself.

On 29 June 1236, after a siege of several months, it was captured by King Ferdinand III of Castile, during the Spanish Reconquista.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba,_Spain


Your latest lessons from your Hare Krishna Cousin,
Bhaktajan
 
Let's see, if older is always better, then theocracy, wherein a majority Christian nation would outlaw Hare Krishna, would be preferable to you than one which tolerates Hare Krishna.
 
What does the billionaire Mayor of New York City Advise?

Wall Street Journal New York — online.wsj.com
http://online.wsj.com/article/AP382d2808d70f4b9cb2595ad350552768.html

NEW YORK CITY — Mayor Michael Bloomberg is praising the ... city's landmarks commission ... for a mosque to be developed near ground zero.

...Bloomberg said "the firefighters and other first responders who died in the attacks had done so to protect religious freedom."

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Freak'n Guiliani! Where are you?
 

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