Is scripture dangerous?

[Gatekeeper]

When you keep being told how worthless you are, you soon come to believe that you are in fact worthless. Scripture is very good at pointing out mankinds faults, and has set a very high bar. One that is pretty much unachievable by us. Our mark is to be Christ like, but when we are repeatedly told how wicked, and worthless, and evil we are how can God expect us to grow past these negatives?

It seems to me if we were truly meant to rise above, scripture would paint a different picture of man, encouraging us, and ensuring us that we are more than what we seem to be.

Dust and ashes, wicked, evil, dirty rags, children of Satan, unjust etc. Where is the encouragement and the hopeful words that might make us believe that we can be anything better than what we are?

If you want to feel bad about who you are .... Read the bible. If you want to feel guilty for being you .... Read the bible. If you read and believe the bible, you'll never have the confidence in who you are to change anything. Instead, you'll rely on a perfect man to do it all for you, which is absolute rubbish (imo).

There comes a point in our lives where we need to value who we are, and value others as well. How can we find value in ourselves, and in others when scripture paints such a grim picture of mankind's abilities to overcome our shortcomings?

Trust in Jesus? What about taking some responsibility for self? What about knowing and believing that we can rise above? I'm at the point where I could care less about anyone. Why? Maybe because I drank from the tainted well and have lost faith in humanity. The water in that God forsaken well ... That big black book of death has stripped me of all faith in mankind.

Lets use this topic to exploit the good stuff in scripture. Lets post where it tells us that we have hope in our inherent goodness despite what mankind seems to be. Lets focus on where it tells us how important we are, so we might gain the confidence and motivation to better ourselves. Lets find SOMETHING that will lend to us some comfort in who we are, as opposed to relying on the goodness of another to make us a better peoples.

If we are truly worthless .... WTF is the point of anything? Why try at all? Why try to help a single soul IF we are all worthless?

I'm tired, and I'm frustrated. I want to believe in the goodness of man, but life nor scripture lends to me that confidence. Maybe I'm reading the wrong parts in scripture. Maybe I missed the parts where it tells us that we aren't that bad. I know it tells us that God so loved the world, but does that mean us, or the planet?

Maybe we were born to lose my friends? Maybe our fate is written in stone, and our salvation (The end of wickedness) is in the death of our kind.

We are told to trust in Jesus. We can trust all we want but until we are able to devote ourselves to His ways, nothing will ever change. It's not like he's gonna come back and by some miracle he'll snap his finger and we will all somehow begin living as we ought at that moment (Never looking back).

It just stupid, and I'm growing tired of the religious zealots judging me for doing things that they themselves do all while they chant that silly little christian mantra

"Christians are not perfect .... Just forgiven".

Forgiven for what exactly? For being who God made us to be? Twisted way to look at life, man.

Scripture is dangerous for the high minded hypocrites who think themselves to be better than others simply because they believe that they are forgiven through Jesus. All while they criticize and judge those who have found the bible to not be conducive to having a healthy self esteem.

What happen to the truth Jesus represented? Where's the love, man! I'll tell you where it is .... It's being sucked dry by the vampiric religious fundamentalist who only live to take the peace away from those who know peace.

I'm just saying!

(God help us all)

 

[wil]

Yes.

Scripture is dangerous. In the wrong hands. The KKK, Jihadists...tons of folks abuse it...

Including whoever is putting these we are all worthless sinners notions out there...

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

yes scripture is dangerous personally i dont really understand any of it anyway. whats dangerous though is the people who go around telling people what scripture means and how you should behave and think i mean islamic scholars, pastors etc, with islamic scholars being the most despicable imo and whats dangerous is how willing many people are to switch off their brains and get taken in by these religious demons.

some people think they are holy because of their ****ing beards or because they tithe or whatever. does the Lord really give a crap about your ****ing beard really, blah blah

sorry about the rant, bit grumpy today

 

[bananabrain]

yes, scripture is dangerous.

so are cars.
so is cutlery.
so are pillows.
it all depends on who's doing what with them.

what are really dangerous are humans.

it didn't ought to be allowed, innit.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[ἔρως-φιλία-ἀγάπη]

You raise some interesting points, and then seem to misunderstand some others. On some I will support you, and on some I will oppose you. Your post is full of ideas and topics that are essentially vastly unrelated...

Anyway, I'm not going to get to the post until tomorrow. Why? Because it's already about 2:30 and I need to go to bed. By the way, Gatekeeper... I like you.

 

[Quahom1]

When you keep being told how worthless you are, you soon come to believe that you are in fact worthless. Scripture is very good at pointing out mankinds faults, and has set a very high bar. One that is pretty much unachievable by us. Our mark is to be Christ like, but when we are repeatedly told how wicked, and worthless, and evil we are how can God expect us to grow past these negatives?

It seems to me if we were truly meant to rise above, scripture would paint a different picture of man, encouraging us, and ensuring us that we are more than what we seem to be.

Dust and ashes, wicked, evil, dirty rags, children of Satan, unjust etc. Where is the encouragement and the hopeful words that might make us believe that we can be anything better than what we are?

If you want to feel bad about who you are .... Read the bible. If you want to feel guilty for being you .... Read the bible. If you read and believe the bible, you'll never have the confidence in who you are to change anything. Instead, you'll rely on a perfect man to do it all for you, which is absolute rubbish (imo).

There comes a point in our lives where we need to value who we are, and value others as well. How can we find value in ourselves, and in others when scripture paints such a grim picture of mankind's abilities to overcome our shortcomings?

Trust in Jesus? What about taking some responsibility for self? What about knowing and believing that we can rise above? I'm at the point where I could care less about anyone. Why? Maybe because I drank from the tainted well and have lost faith in humanity. The water in that God forsaken well ... That big black book of death has stripped me of all faith in mankind.

Lets use this topic to exploit the good stuff in scripture. Lets post where it tells us that we have hope in our inherent goodness despite what mankind seems to be. Lets focus on where it tells us how important we are, so we might gain the confidence and motivation to better ourselves. Lets find SOMETHING that will lend to us some comfort in who we are, as opposed to relying on the goodness of another to make us a better peoples.

If we are truly worthless .... WTF is the point of anything? Why try at all? Why try to help a single soul IF we are all worthless?

I'm tired, and I'm frustrated. I want to believe in the goodness of man, but life nor scripture lends to me that confidence. Maybe I'm reading the wrong parts in scripture. Maybe I missed the parts where it tells us that we aren't that bad. I know it tells us that God so loved the world, but does that mean us, or the planet?

Maybe we were born to lose my friends? Maybe our fate is written in stone, and our salvation (The end of wickedness) is in the death of our kind.

We are told to trust in Jesus. We can trust all we want but until we are able to devote ourselves to His ways, nothing will ever change. It's not like he's gonna come back and by some miracle he'll snap his finger and we will all somehow begin living as we ought at that moment (Never looking back).

It just stupid, and I'm growing tired of the religious zealots judging me for doing things that they themselves do all while they chant that silly little christian mantra

"Christians are not perfect .... Just forgiven".

Forgiven for what exactly? For being who God made us to be? Twisted way to look at life, man.

Scripture is dangerous for the high minded hypocrites who think themselves to be better than others simply because they believe that they are forgiven through Jesus. All while they criticize and judge those who have found the bible to not be conducive to having a healthy self esteem.

What happen to the truth Jesus represented? Where's the love, man! I'll tell you where it is .... It's being sucked dry by the vampiric religious fundamentalist who only live to take the peace away from those who know peace.

I'm just saying!

(God help us all)

Scripture is a personal message to each individual GateKeeper. The message of God is different for each soul, depending upon their needs and growth requirements.

Scripture is like a "ring of truth". However, whomever decides to put the "ring" on will likely hear a different part of that "truth" meant only for them, and no one else...

That is why those who choose to hear the words of scripture should contemplate and then ask God for personal clarification, if there is confusion. God answers, in just the right time and fashion. People don't, of their own accord.

Remember the story about faith, hope and love? Nothing makes sense, if it is spoken with no love...

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

We do not presume to come to this thy Table, O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under thy Table.

Book of Common Prayer

... have mercy on us miserable offenders

BCP

The tradition of self-loathing is a very ancient and deep-rooted one. I do not know how or why it originated, perhaps it is one of those things that manifest itself in the superstitious edges of any religion. Just off the top of my head I can't think of any real justification for this anywhere in the Bible. There are certainly places in the Gospels where Jesus made a point of encouraging people, especially those condemned or disdained by others. (e.g. Zaccheus, the Centurion with the daughter etc). The Psalms are full of praise for God's goodness.

I have come to believe that the only thing between us and God's forgiveness is our willingness to accept it. Someone one said to me: Imagine a beautiful warm sea of forgiveness, and you are walking into it.

Yea, and what more? Weep thou never so much for sorrow of thy sins, or of the Passion of Christ, or have thou never so much mind of the joys of heaven, what may it do to thee? Surely much good, much help, much profit, and much grace will it get thee. But in comparison of this blind stirring of love, it is but a little that it doth, or may do, without this.

The Cloud of Unknowing (14th century)

In other words, the working of love within you is worth more than the weeping and wailing of a lifetime.

To which I would add, if you really beleve that God loves you ("for God so loved the world..."), that he knew you from the beginning of time down to the last hair on your head, that he wanted you to be a part of his beautiful creation, wow, how can anyone call you unworthy?

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

I know it tells us that God so loved the world, but does that mean us, or the planet?

Sorry I missed that bit. You know how that verse goes on: .. "that whoso believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (sorry about the old English). So clearly it means us not just the planet.

But if you look for the good in people you will find good. If you look for the bad you will find bad. There's always good and bad. That's the importance of being that bit of salt that keeps all the rest from going completely rotten.

10And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

Everyone know this story, but it's still worth reading. Elijah had pulled off a brilliant stunt and his reward was, everyone hated him. Now he fled for his life. But he wasn't alone.

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

Just a footnote: apparently the prayer of humble access (above) was taken from this passage in Mark:

Mark 7:25-28 (King James Version)
25For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:
26The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
27But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
28And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.

This is a contentious little passage as it seems to show Jesus in an uncharacteristically racist light. In any case he immediately granted her request and healed her daughter which seems to negate his earlier remark. So it seems an odd choice of scripture on which to base a prayer at the centre of the most sacred of Christian rites.

I just thought I'd put that in before Thomas got there
-cliff

 

[17th Angel]

I think it is obvious and it has been proven many a time over that it can indeed be dangerous even fatal. But, isn't this the same with pretty much anything? It can be used both for good and bad, an object is just an object until we add an individual human element to it, then that object becomes that individuals tool. You cannot blame the tool for the workman's constructions with it.

 

[Dogbrain]

This is a contentious little passage as it seems to show Jesus in an uncharacteristically racist light. In any case he immediately granted her request and healed her daughter which seems to negate his earlier remark. So it seems an odd choice of scripture on which to base a prayer at the centre of the most sacred of Christian rites.

Do you not think that God would know of the implications of His words? Why did he choose them? Was the Messiah just another yutz or something more? He was something more. He spoke as He spoke because he already knew that this was what His Apostles believed. Therefore, He presented a lesson to them about their own attitudes and about excluding people because of birth, nationality, status, etc.

 

[Dogbrain]

Of course Scripture is dangerous. The more powerful and useful something could be, the more dangerous it is.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Thank you all for your contributions. I suppose I shouldn't blame the tool for being misused by the handler, eh? Any tool in the wrong hands could be dangerous, so instead of condemning scripture altogether, I think I'll take from it what I find useful.

Actually, I'm quite certain all of scripture is useful to some extent. It's just used to justify the wrong things by some. For some people it tends to bring out the worse, but for others .... the best.

Even so, I do think there should be a bit more edification, and encouragement within the pages for our kind. I've always found a word of encouragement to bring out the best in me, whereas I tend to resist judgmental criticism. This is probably an issue of pride on my part, but a reality just the same.

It's too bad some people forget where they came from, and end up throwing stones over things they've done themselves. Nobody's perfect after all, and we all have our shortcomings. With that being said, I think it probably best to view overly judgmental attitudes as a shortcoming and not let anothers shortcoming have power over my own emotional well being.

Although scripture tends to turn some into self righteous hypocrites (?) it also shows some that they are not perfect and in the same boat as the rest of us. It all depends on where and how we take the lessons presented I guess.

Anyway, I'll quit listening to those who only wish to condemn me, and keep myself in the circles where I am lifted up by those who have been down themselves.

"Two are better than one, because they have a good reward for their toil. For if they fall, one friend will lift up the other. But woe to him who is alone when he falls and has not another to lift him up"

 

[Quahom1]

Just a footnote: apparently the prayer of humble access (above) was taken from this passage in Mark:


This is a contentious little passage as it seems to show Jesus in an uncharacteristically racist light. In any case he immediately granted her request and healed her daughter which seems to negate his earlier remark. So it seems an odd choice of scripture on which to base a prayer at the centre of the most sacred of Christian rites.

I just thought I'd put that in before Thomas got there
-cliff

Sorry, I got here first... lol.

The story emphasizes the amazement of Jesus at the faith and dogged determination of the woman to not be turned aside by whom she knew was of God.

If the rest is read, it is revealed that Jesus (who originally came for the Jews), was about to grant the gentiles the same hope for salvation as the "children" originally targeted. Hence the "grafting" of the branches onto the tree of life, and the stripping of the "dead" branches that originated with the tree, etc...

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

The story emphasizes the amazement of Jesus at the faith and dogged determination of the woman to not be turned aside by whom she knew was of God.

If the rest is read, it is revealed that Jesus (who originally came for the Jews), was about to grant the gentiles the same hope for salvation as the "children" originally targeted. Hence the "grafting" of the branches onto the tree of life, and the stripping of the "dead" branches that originated with the tree, etc...

Fair enough, but if he were a living politician today he would find his exact words all over the headlines the next day. But my point was that Jesus did not treat people like dirt, and didn't like people to think of themselves in that way. Personally I don't think this is an appropriate or helpful way to approach God.

 

[Quahom1]

Fair enough, but if he were a living politician today he would find his exact words all over the headlines the next day. But my point was that Jesus did not treat people like dirt, and didn't like people to think of themselves in that way. Personally I don't think this is an appropriate or helpful way to approach God.

I don't think Jesus would be too concerned about headlines today. He wasn't concerned yesteryear.

People tend to think too highly of themselves, or too lowly of themselves. Jesus likes to even the playing field...

 

[Dogbrain]

Fair enough, but if he were a living politician today he would find his exact words all over the headlines the next day. But my point was that Jesus did not treat people like dirt, and didn't like people to think of themselves in that way. Personally I don't think this is an appropriate or helpful way to approach God.

I'm reminded of the congregation my fiancee's mother attends. They're the sort who do (and they do) use "Samaritan" as a synonym for "good person" or "charitable person" and then turn around and bad-mouth "Mexicans" (or other groups, but mostly "Mexicans"). They consider themselves to be "Bible-believing" but know next to nothing at all about their own Scripture. In their eyes, from my background, I supposedly cannot know anything about the Bible, since my "kind" isn't allowed to study it by our priests (or so my mother-in-law-to-be and her circle believe). Yet, simple points of Scripture, like the status of Samaritans in the eyes of the "Chosen People", are entirely unknown to them.

Jesus the Anointed of God would have washed the feet of Mexicans in Texas and thoroughly scandalized these upstanding "Bible-believing Christians".

 

[Amergin]

When you keep being told how worthless you are, you soon come to believe that you are in fact worthless. Scripture is very good at pointing out mankinds faults, and has set a very high bar. One that is pretty much unachievable by us. Our mark is to be Christ like, but when we are repeatedly told how wicked, and worthless, and evil we are how can God expect us to grow past these negatives?

It seems to me if we were truly meant to rise above, scripture would paint a different picture of man, encouraging us, and ensuring us that we are more than what we seem to be.

Dust and ashes, wicked, evil, dirty rags, children of Satan, unjust etc. Where is the encouragement and the hopeful words that might make us believe that we can be anything better than what we are?

If you want to feel bad about who you are .... Read the bible. If you want to feel guilty for being you .... Read the bible. If you read and believe the bible, you'll never have the confidence in who you are to change anything. Instead, you'll rely on a perfect man to do it all for you, which is absolute rubbish (imo).

There comes a point in our lives where we need to value who we are, and value others as well. How can we find value in ourselves, and in others when scripture paints such a grim picture of mankind's abilities to overcome our shortcomings?

Trust in Jesus? What about taking some responsibility for self? What about knowing and believing that we can rise above? I'm at the point where I could care less about anyone. Why? Maybe because I drank from the tainted well and have lost faith in humanity. The water in that God forsaken well ... That big black book of death has stripped me of all faith in mankind.

Lets use this topic to exploit the good stuff in scripture. Lets post where it tells us that we have hope in our inherent goodness despite what mankind seems to be. Lets focus on where it tells us how important we are, so we might gain the confidence and motivation to better ourselves. Lets find SOMETHING that will lend to us some comfort in who we are, as opposed to relying on the goodness of another to make us a better peoples.

If we are truly worthless .... WTF is the point of anything? Why try at all? Why try to help a single soul IF we are all worthless?

I'm tired, and I'm frustrated. I want to believe in the goodness of man, but life nor scripture lends to me that confidence. Maybe I'm reading the wrong parts in scripture. Maybe I missed the parts where it tells us that we aren't that bad. I know it tells us that God so loved the world, but does that mean us, or the planet?

Maybe we were born to lose my friends? Maybe our fate is written in stone, and our salvation (The end of wickedness) is in the death of our kind.

We are told to trust in Jesus. We can trust all we want but until we are able to devote ourselves to His ways, nothing will ever change. It's not like he's gonna come back and by some miracle he'll snap his finger and we will all somehow begin living as we ought at that moment (Never looking back).

It just stupid, and I'm growing tired of the religious zealots judging me for doing things that they themselves do all while they chant that silly little christian mantra

"Christians are not perfect .... Just forgiven".

Forgiven for what exactly? For being who God made us to be? Twisted way to look at life, man.

Scripture is dangerous for the high minded hypocrites who think themselves to be better than others simply because they believe that they are forgiven through Jesus. All while they criticize and judge those who have found the bible to not be conducive to having a healthy self esteem.

What happen to the truth Jesus represented? Where's the love, man! I'll tell you where it is .... It's being sucked dry by the vampiric religious fundamentalist who only live to take the peace away from those who know peace.

I'm just saying!

(God help us all)

Fortunately Christian Scripture and dogma are bollocks. The part that I find so crazy is that like you mention, it tells us we are born in sin, defective, despicable, prone to sin, undeserving of forgiveness, and deserve burning in Hell.

Ah...but if you accept Jesus into your heart, none of the sins counted. You are forgiven for what you really didn't do. If you have politically correct belief in Jesus as a full fledged God, you are saved. What the bloody Hell?

I forget who said this, but it was a famous writer. "A Presbyterian (Calvinistic) fears and worries that someone, somewhere might be happy."

Amergin

"The Clergy hate me because they know, that I know, that they do not know." Robert Ingersoll

 

[Saltmeister]

Fortunately Christian Scripture and dogma are bollocks. The part that I find so crazy is that like you mention, it tells us we are born in sin, defective, despicable, prone to sin, undeserving of forgiveness, and deserve burning in Hell.

Christian Scripture does not tell you that. That is just an interpretation of the Text and it is tragic that that view became dominant.

Ah...but if you accept Jesus into your heart, none of the sins counted. You are forgiven for what you really didn't do. If you have politically correct belief in Jesus as a full fledged God, you are saved. What the bloody Hell?

From my recent reading of some rather insightful articles on the Internet, I am told that Christianity emerged as part of one of two factions, Hillel and Shammai, that were active in the religious politics of the first century. Some of what I am about to say is my own thinking and some of it you can find if you do a search on Google or Yahoo. I will be describing it in my own words.

The dominant faction at the time was the fundamentalist and legalistic one -- Shammai. Christianity was part of the liberal faction (Hillel). The idea that God was so unloving, strict and insensitive came from the fundamentalist faction. It wasn't really God who was hateful and unloving, but the fundamentalist faction.

The Shammaites created the image of a hateful and cruel God and the Hillelites (of which Christianity was one group) sought to oppose them. Because the Shammaites dominated the religious politics of Judaism, it has given Christians over the centuries the idea that this is the best you will ever get out of Judaism -- that Judaism is fundamentalist and legalistic. It also gives people the idea that because of the way the New Testament describes Jews that the NT is anti-Jewish, when it was simply recording the prevailing attitudes at the time. Shammaism dominated Judaism at the time, so Jews are generally seen as Shammai-like (usually people say "Pharisaic" but I think that's a poorly chosen term) in the NT because it was the dominant political force.

After the destruction of the Second Temple the Shammai faction lost their former influence. Whatever depiction you get of Jews in the NT as "fundamentalist" and "legalistic" ceases to be valid at that point because Judaism thereafter took a completely different direction -- whatever that was, you'd have to ask the Jews because this is where Judaism and Christianity split up -- despite the fact that both of them at that point (largely) denounced the Shammaites. They just couldn't agree on their relationship with God.

Now back to the matter and question of Christianity being about a cruel, hateful and heartless God -- as I said, Christianity was in opposition to the thinking of the Shammaites. They wanted to counter the Shammaites' thinking of a cruel, hateful, heartless God who couldn't accept people sinning and breaking His laws and would rather condemn them and leave them to suffer a hard life.

Jesus was part of the Hillel faction and he sought to save people from the Shammaites. He didn't really save people from God. He saved people from the fundamentalists and Shammaites. The Christian God was always willing to forgive, even before Jesus died on the cross. The crucifixion was just a sign of that generosity. There was really nothing to forgive. God already understood the hardships of humanity. Jesus died simply to discredit the Shammaites. He died to set people free from slavery to the fundamentalists and legalists. It was a political death. That was the so-called "Truth" that was supposed to set people free.

Rather than God condemning the whole human race, I think it was God trying to lift a heavy burden off religious people who thought they didn't deserve love from God because of their failure to live up to their religion's ideals, wherever they were in the world -- a heavy burden that we now call "fundamentalism" and "legalism." Unfortunately, I think the message has become garbled over the centuries. The struggle continues today. We still have Shammaites and fundamentalists to fight.

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

That really is very interesting. I wonder if you would be kind enough to give your source for this?