Did Jesus Die?

[Abdullah]

Jesus will still forgive and accept all those who were victims because of their innocence and ignorance and there are many Muslims who are victims because their religion.

"Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

Similar to Islam, except the man-worship part ofcourse! :

Qur'an 3:64-71 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)
Say: "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)."

7.157. "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."


the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) has said,

"By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, any person of this Community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell" (al-Baghawi: Sharh al-sunna 1.104).

This hadith is a rigorously authenticated (sahih) evidence that clarifies the word of Allah in surat Al 'Imran

"Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam will never have it accepted from him, and shall be of those who have truly failed in the next life" (Qur'an 3:85)


HADITH 42
On the authority of Anas, who said: I heard the messenger of Allah say:
Allah the Almighty has said: "O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as its."

related by Al-Tirmithi, who said that it was a good and sound Hadith.

 

[True Gabriel]

however much you would like to believe all that GAB, yet distorted sources are not worth the paper they're written on!

Unfortunately that is where you are very wrong, because the Bible has a very reputable record keeping of its' Scriptures, Doctrines and history that is well documented, and preserved for thousands of years. While your Quran has no external supportive facts or scriptures it uses the Bible as its reference by brutalizing the entire Bible essential doctrines and history and renaming it as the Quran. The lack of originality and supportive facts is what makes the Quran just a book nothing more.

 

[True Gabriel]

Similar to Islam, except the man-worship part ofcourse! :

Qur'an 3:64-71 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)
Say: "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)."

7.157. "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."


the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) has said,

"By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, any person of this Community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell" (al-Baghawi: Sharh al-sunna 1.104).

This hadith is a rigorously authenticated (sahih) evidence that clarifies the word of Allah in surat Al 'Imran

"Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam will never have it accepted from him, and shall be of those who have truly failed in the next life" (Qur'an 3:85)


HADITH 42
On the authority of Anas, who said: I heard the messenger of Allah say:
Allah the Almighty has said: "O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as its."

related by Al-Tirmithi, who said that it was a good and sound Hadith.

We don't worship man, we worship the Son of God Jesus Christ who by His resurrection reunited as One with God.

And we absolutely don't worship or venerate a piece of black rock.

Beware of false prophets and false angels

Matthew 24: 23 - 26
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

2Corinthians 11:13 -15
13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The coming of the false prophet Mohammed has been foretold as well as false angles that appeared to Mohammed were also warn to Christians to watch out for.

Too many Muslims have fallen to this deception;

The Quran is unauthenticated to be the true words of Allah it is a man name Mohammed who self proclaim himself to be a prophet that proclaim it is Allah's words against all facts, history, doctrines and scriptures.
"Father Forgive them for they know not what they do"

 

[True Gabriel]

The disasters of the Quran_1 - YouTube

Islam abrogation rule, that is why the Quran is the corrupted book not the Bible.

 

[radarmark]

Ah, Gabriel, pull back your sword. This is an islamic thread. Their bible is Quran, and the same spears you hurl at them can be hurled at your beliefs.

It is just a difference in outer form, in the heart, the two are identical.

 

[Abdullah]

I understand what christians believe about Jesus [pbuh] Gab, but this is basically what all man-worshippers and idolaters believe; that their object of worship is infact God incarnate or something, but does that make them God?; the fact remains that hindus worship peaces of stones, and others worship the sun, moon nature, etc, and the rastafarians worship a man [highly salasi] and the japanese used to worship a man [their king] and the chrisitans worship a man too

Allah has clarified in His Last revelation the true nature of Jesus [pbuh] and it as as follows:


72. They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

75. Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

Sura 10:68-70 They say: “God hath begotten a son!” - Glory be to Him! He is self- sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have ye for this! say ye about God what ye know not? Say: “Those who invent a lie against God will never prosper.” A little enjoyment in this world!- and then, to Us will be their return, then shall We make them taste the severest penalty for their blasphemies.”


and regarding the originality/untampered nature of the Quran, did you know that it is the consensus of the orientalists that it is totally undistorted?; so there you have it; your experts say that it is undistorted so what others say dont matter

and see link for evidence of Bibles distortion;

Christian Scholars Recognize Contradictions in the Bible (part 1 of 7): Introduction - The Religion of Islam


the black stone is just there for hajj performers to remember how many times they've been round the Ka'ba [that cube shaped mosque], once they come round once, they indicate towards it, or if their near enough, they kiss it and thus note that they've been round once, twice, etc,; one hadith say it all about the significance of the black stone:

Sahih Al Bukhari, Volume 2, Book of Hajj, Chapter 57, Hadith 1605. Umar (ra) said, “I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (pbuh) touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you”.

 

[radarmark]

Abdullah, Islamic question for you. Where can I go to see the Islamic discussion of "spurious Hadiths"? I read somewhere there is conflict within what (we of the West define as) Islam as to the actual bindingness and wording. Am I wrong?

 

[Abdullah]

Abdullah, Islamic question for you. Where can I go to see the Islamic discussion of "spurious Hadiths"? I read somewhere there is conflict within what (we of the West define as) Islam as to the actual bindingness and wording. Am I wrong?

yes wrong, but right too

basically, there is no conflict as such in that there is only minor disagreements regarding a relatively few hadith amongst 90 percent of the Muslims [those who make up sunni-Islam], but such differences results from the capaciousness of divinely designed diversity, hence is not considered a problem

there are a few fabricated hadiths about, but they have been identified and labelled as such and never used for Islamic rulings or knowledge

 

[True Gabriel]

=Abdullah;261476]I understand what christians believe about Jesus [pbuh] Gab, but this is basically what all man-worshippers and idolaters believe; that their object of worship is infact God incarnate or something, but does that make them God?; the fact remains that hindus worship peaces of stones, and others worship the sun, moon nature, etc, and the rastafarians worship a man [highly salasi] and the japanese used to worship a man [their king] and the chrisitans worship a man too

Christians don't worship 'a' man as Muslims have been claiming in total contradiction to Biblical Scriptures. Christians worship Jesus Christ, the Son of God as proclaim by Gabriel;
Luke 1:26-35
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

And throne of angels proclaim it too:
Luke 2:8 - 14
8 And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night.
9 An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified.
10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people.
11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.
12 This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”
13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
14 “Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”

I really don't understand how can Mohammed, Muslims and Allah could missed all these verses? these verses were clearly well documented and preserved. And as long as Muslims continue to deny the existence of these verses they will falsely continue to say that Christian worship a man and Jesus Christ i snot the Son of God.

You pointed out Hindus worship stones, sound similar to the Arabs doesn't it. And why do Muslims venerate or worship the black stone so much that it is place at Muslim most sacred temple in Mecca the Kabaa? It is very hypocritical to accuse Christians of idolatry when Muslims themselves are openly worshiping or venerating a rock?

Allah has clarified in His Last revelation the true nature of Jesus [pbuh] and it as as follows:

72. They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

Jesus already answered this question with firm commitment when a crowd of Jews and pharisees wanted to stone Jesus when he was at the temple because Jesus announce and claim he is the Son of God!
John 10:30 -35
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Jesus mock them for they pretend to be gods and not recognizing the scripture that he is God and no matter what that scripture can not be broken. Again the incident was well documented and it happen in front of many witnesses and again, Mohammed excluded another of this important event and declaration of Jesus deity.

Ironic that this similar situation will be mention in the Quran but this time without any witnesses and a different Jesus.

73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

A clear reference of the on going issue brought up by the heretics accusing falsely that Christians worshiping three Gods and denying that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. No where in the Bible or in any of the known councils did Christians ever said or worship three Gods, the Bible is very clear Holy Spirit, Son of God and God the Father all mention in separately all in the nature of One God not three Gods. The council church leaders upon careful analysis of the Bible scriptures learn that God is One with three nature not three Gods. It is understandable to understand that the heretics got it wrong but for Allah to think the same way as the heretics is like too much of a coincidence that Allah seem to be getting his ques from them?

75. Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

Sura 10:68-70 They say: “God hath begotten a son!” - Glory be to Him! He is self- sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have ye for this! say ye about God what ye know not? Say: “Those who invent a lie against God will never prosper.” A little enjoyment in this world!- and then, to Us will be their return, then shall We make them taste the severest penalty for their blasphemies.”

Those are words of early Christian heretics such as the Arianism, Nestorians, Ebonites etc.

These is what the Bible said:
Luke 1: 32 - 35
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

Couldn't be more clearer than that especially if it is coming from the arch angel Gabriel himself.

Even Satan wants Jesus to worship him just like Allah wants Jesus to worship and bow down to him and Jesus reprimanded Satan reminding him who is God!

Matthew 4: 1 -11
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

and regarding the originality/untampered nature of the Quran, did you know that it is the consensus of the orientalists that it is totally undistorted?; so there you have it; your experts say that it is undistorted so what others say dont matter

and see link for evidence of Bibles distortion;

According to some Muslim scholars that have to relocate to the West because by speaking truthfully about the Quran their lives are in danger.

In 1995, an Egyptian court labeled Abu Zaid an apostate, and his wife was ordered, under Islamic law, to divorce him. He and his wife fled to Holland. His crime? Zaid dared to put into writing a conclusion that a number of other Muslim scholars know to be true (but fear to express openly). He said the Qur’an was a literary document that needed to be examined as such. The study of the Qur’an outside the parameters of strict Muslim orthodoxy can be very, very dangerous.

See the link about the Quran errors. Fr. Z. Botros an Egyptian Coptic Christian pointed so many error sin the Quran and now he is a wanted man in Egypt and is not welcome in Muslim lands.

True Face Of Islam - Interview with father Zakaria Boutros - YouTube
Abrogation im Quran - Teil 3 von 3 Zakaria Boutros - YouTube


Christian Scholars Recognize Contradictions in the Bible (part 1 of 7): Introduction - The Religion of Islam

the black stone is just there for hajj performers to remember how many times they've been round the Ka'ba [that cube shaped mosque], once they come round once, they indicate towards it, or if their near enough, they kiss it and thus note that they've been round once, twice, etc,; one hadith say it all about the significance of the black stone:

Sahih Al Bukhari, Volume 2, Book of Hajj, Chapter 57, Hadith 1605. Umar (ra) said, “I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (pbuh) touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you”.

If it is just a marker then wouldn't it contradict with what it represent that it was Abraham and Ishmael who put it there and now Muslims deregulated it to be just a marker?

 

[radarmark]

Of course it is possible that Jesus did not die. The evidence (other than scriptural) is pretty much a wash. As Professor Schonfield posulated in "Passover Plat", it is even very likely to some.

When discussing this topic, which is extra-scriptural, it serves nothing (IMHO) to quote scripture.

 

[True Gabriel]

Re: Jesus died and resurrected as God

Of course it is possible that Jesus did not die. The evidence (other than scriptural) is pretty much a wash. As Professor Schonfield posulated in "Passover Plat", it is even very likely to some.

When discussing this topic, which is extra-scriptural, it serves nothing (IMHO) to quote scripture.

The problem is that Muslims have always use the Bible scriptures to claim that Jesus did not die and at the same time created a new scriptures of their own to state that Jesus did not die in order to justify their claim.

Not only that, Muslims have created many new scriptures such as claiming Jesus is not the son of God. Thus we have to respond to those false accusation through scriptures and the Biblical scriptures have been clear and well supported that state Jesus is the Son of God.

The New Testament was written between 40 -70 AD by Apostles and first generation disciples of Jesus Apostle's the reference that they use was being direct eye witnesses to Jesus Christ and the Old Testament. The Quran was written 600 years after Jesus and their reference was from the Bible and Christian heretics, although Muslims will deny that but instead they claim that it was from Gabriel or Allah directly communicated to Mohammed without any eyewitness account.

Islam's foundation is too much similar to the Christian heretics that all claim that Jesus is not Son of God, anti Trinitarian and accuse Christians of worshipping Mary.

According to this website provided by Abdullah Christian Scholars Recognize in Bible"
Christian Scholars Recognize Contradictions in the Bible (part 1 of 7): Introduction - The Religion of Islam

Those critics and questions have been clearly repudiated with logic, reasons, and historical, doctrinal, scientific and archaeological evidences that the Bible is authentic and its' contents are reliable by Christian and none Christian scholars.
Examining Islamic Apologetics (Part 2)

Answering Islam, A Christian-Muslim Dialog and Apologetic
CARM - Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
The Divinity of Christ | Catholic Answers

Unfortunately, Muslim scholars have refused to answer the many contradictions, questions and errors in Islam instead they kept attacking the Bible to divert attention away from themselves.

Muslims most common answers to questions about Islam are:
1. It is the word of Allah and or Mohammed that's it
2. The Quran is what it is
3. Muslims and none Muslims who raise those questions are bias, Islamophobic, not familiar with Islam, and un-knowledgeable with Allah.

In fact Jehovah Witness and Mormons are very similar to Islam just like they are similar to the ancient heretics that existed widely during Mohammed's time they do not believe Jesus is the Son of God, that Jesus did not die on the cross, that Jesus is just a prophet and that the Bible is corrupt. The only difference is that unlike Islam they called them selves Christians. How can they claim to be Christians when it is very clear they do not believe in the essential doctrine and scripture of Christianity that is Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God Himself.

 

[Abdullah]

Of course it is possible that Jesus did not die. The evidence (other than scriptural) is pretty much a wash. As Professor Schonfield posulated in "Passover Plat", it is even very likely to some.

When discussing this topic, which is extra-scriptural, it serves nothing (IMHO) to quote scripture.

exactly, especially when that scripture is distorted too!

 

[Abdullah]

Christian Scholars Recognize Contradictions in the Bible (part 1 of 7): Introduction - The Religion of Islam

And thats not all Gab

take a look at this:

Jesus Seminar on the distortion of the Bible​

​

​

 

[radarmark]

Good stuff, maynard! "What Did Jesus Really Say" is especially deliciouso and I shall be reading it in its entirty. Tahnk you my friend, abdullah.

 

[radarmark]

A question here, abdullah, is the sunni outlook on sufis as poor as some sources say? That is some report that sufism is frowned upon.

 

[True Gabriel]

Before answering the question whether Jesus died or not, let us first understand the meaning of death. In the Holy Qur’an, Allah defined death as ‘transfer’ (wafaat) from one world to another. At death, the soul leaves the earthly body and moves to another world. However, it is also possible that the soul and the body both leave this world, without being separated from each other. This will also be called death for that person. After death, the souls of the ordinary people stay asleep until the Day of Judgment. The souls of some selected prophets, however, can stay awake in a different kind of body in different worlds (in heavens). This can be proved from the well-known Tradition where the Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) described his nightly journey (Isra and Miraj) to the seven heavens. He met some prophets in different heavens while ascending to the highest heaven and, ultimately, met and spoke to God. Here is the Tradition:

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345:
Narrated Abu Djar (ra):

Allah's Apostle said, "While I was at Mecca, the roof of my house was opened and Gabriel descended, opened my chest, and washed it with Zam-zam water. Then he brought a golden tray full of wisdom and faith and having poured its contents into my chest, he closed it. Then he took my hand and ascended with me to the nearest heaven, when I reached the nearest heaven, Gabriel said to the gatekeeper of the heaven, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel answered: 'Gabriel.' He asked, 'Is there anyone with you?' Gabriel replied, 'Yes, Muhammad is with me.' He asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel said, 'Yes.' So the gate was opened and we went over the nearest heaven and there we saw a man sitting with some people on his right and some on his left. When he looked towards his right, he smiled and when he looked toward his left he wept. Then he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' He replied, 'He is Adam and the people on his right and left are the souls of his offspring. Those on his right are the people of Paradise and those on his left are the people of Hell and when he looks towards his right he smiles and when he looks towards his left he weeps.'
Then he ascended with me till he reached the second heaven and he (Gabriel) said to its gatekeeper, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper said to him the same as the gatekeeper of the first heaven had said and he opened the gate. Anas said: "Abu Djar added that the Prophet met Adam, Idris, Moses, Jesus and Abraham, he (Abu Djar) did not mention on which heaven they were but he mentioned that he (the Prophet) met Adam on the nearest heaven and Abraham on the sixth heaven. Anas said, "When Gabriel along with the Prophet passed by Idris, the latter said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' The Prophet asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Idris." The Prophet added, "I passed by Moses and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Moses.' Then I passed by Jesus and he said, 'Welcome! O pious brother and pious Prophet.' I asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Jesus.

Then I passed by Abraham and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Abraham. The Prophet added, 'Then Gabriel ascended with me to a place where I heard the creaking of the pens." Ibne Hazm and Anas bin Malik said: The Prophet said, "Then Allah enjoined fifty prayers on my followers when I returned with this order of Allah, I passed by Moses who asked me, 'What has Allah enjoined on your followers?' I replied, 'He has enjoined fifty prayers on them.' Moses said, 'Go back to your Lord (and appeal for reduction) for your followers will not be able to bear it.' (So I went back to Allah and requested for reduction) and He reduced it to half. When I passed by Moses again and informed him about it, he said, 'Go back to your Lord as your followers will not be able to bear it.' So I returned to Allah and requested for further reduction and half of it was reduced. I again passed by Moses and he said to me: 'Return to your Lord, for your followers will not be able to bear it. So I returned to Allah and He said, 'These are five prayers and they are all (equal to) fifty (in reward) for My Word does not change.' I returned to Moses and he told me to go back once again. I replied, 'Now I feel shy of asking my Lord again.' Then Gabriel took me till we reached Sidra-tul-Muntaha (Lote tree of the utmost boundary) that was shrouded in colors, indescribable. Then I was admitted into Paradise where I found small (tents or) walls (made) of pearls and its earth was of musk."

Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) met Adam on the first heaven and Abraham on the sixth heaven. The narrator did not mention here on which heaven he met Jesus. In another Tradition, however, it was mentioned that the meeting with Jesus took place on the fourth heaven.

Do we all agree that Prophet Adam, Idris, Moses and Abraham have died? Yes, right? After they died, where are they residing now? In different level of heavens, according to this authentic Tradition. Now, where did Mohammad meet Jesus? In the same place as the other prophets – in the heaven – in the fourth heaven, to be precise. So can there be any doubt that all those prophets are dead in relation to this world but are alive and living in the heavens and so is Prophet Jesus? How he died – by crucifixion or natural death or ‘raised up by Allah to heaven’ is a different question. Allah said in Qur’an:

4:157 They say that: “We have killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, messenger of Allah.” Neither did they kill him, nor did they crucify him, but (it was made) to resemble for them. Surely those who differed in it (they were) in doubt about it. They did not have any knowledge about it except following the guess and surely they did not kill him (Jesus).

4:158 Allah raised him (Jesus) up to Him (in the heavens). Allah is All-Powerful, All-Wise.

We have earlier mentioned that death itself means to leave this world or to transfer (wafaat) from this world to another. This transfer can happen only to the soul or both the soul and the body. Here Allah says that He ‘raised Jesus up to Him (onto heaven)’. Therefore, no matter in whatever method the departure of Jesus from this world took place, in the common sense of death (wafaat) he has been transferred to another world (heaven), meaning, he died, like all other prophets did.

I think we should understand that Christianity and Islam are totally a religion of their own and have no relationship with each other. Islam is Islam and Christianity is Christianity. Islam have their Quran that is different from the Bible therefore it is expected that both will have different history, scriptures,doctrines and beliefs.

Just like there are two different Jibril characters, one that appear to Mohammed whom Mohammed believe was a jinn that made him almost crazy to want to commit suicide because the spirit was so rough on him and could not make Mohammed literate according to the Hadith. Mohammed would only calm down after Waraqa his Christian monk cousin told him it was Gabriel the angel that appear to Moses, the only problem is Gabriel never appear to Moses it was God himself who appear to Moses. Compare that to the Jibril that appear to Mary on Sura: 3:45 -48 the Jibril of Mary is more similar to the Bible Gabriel the description matches that of the Bible, while Jibril of Mohammed does not.
It would seem also that Isa (Jesus) is different from Jesus Christ of the Bible. There is a big difference between the two; Isa is the son of Mary, he is not son of Allah and not one with Allah, Isa was a prophet, he did not die from crucifixion, and have a different story line from the Bible and Isa did not use the word Christ as part of him.

Jesus of the Bible is Jesus Christ the Son of God, Jesus Christ became human in fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecy and scripture to redeem human kind from the sins of Adam and Eve to re-open the gates of Paradise so that our good souls can enter Heaven, Jesus Christ died on the cross and resurrected to become One with God.

Jesus Christ death on the cross was witness by his sinless human mother Mary, Mary Magdalene and his apostle John, the Pharisees, several Jewish crowds, and Roman guards. Jesus Christ trial in front of the Pharisees and Roman Governor Pontius Pilate, torture, crucifixion and burial were all well documented by Roman and Jewish scribes and later on by Jesus Christ’s Apostles.

Jesus Christ also predicted his death and sufferings and told his Apostles about it, Jesus even knew who was to betray him and told Peter that he will deny him 3x before the rooster crow.

All of Jesus Christ Apostles went into hiding in dire fear that they too will be arrested, torture and executed either by the Romans, Harold’s men or by the Pharisees.

Three days after Jesus Christ death, he will resurrect his resurrection caught everyone by surprise even by his Apostles; they couldn’t believe it until they finally saw Him and ate with Him again. Thomas was the last Apostle to believe Jesus Christ has resurrected until finally he met face to face with Jesus Christ and Thomas heart sunk with over joy and he was convince as he kneel and proclaim “My Lord and my God”, all the Apostles came face to face with God.

From that day on all the Apostles became change people just like Moses when he came face to face with God at Mt. Sinai, no longer were they afraid like before, even though they knew that the Romans and Pharisees will torture them and kill them but they were no longer afraid and all of them became more aware of the truth and the whole Gospel, they were ready to go out on their own to spread the good news of Jesus Christ.

Isa on the other hand escape death according to the Quran, a look a like took his place and suffer all the physical torture, pain and finally death, there were no witnesses to the trail and crucifixion of Isa’s look a like. Isa would then be rescue by Allah and brought to heaven no mention of any of his apostle’s doing any apostolic works or became enlighten and holy no names were also mention this would mean Isa’s apostles are not the same Apostles of Jesus Christ.

Base on these differences it is certain that Isa is not Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is not Isa they are of two different individual. Isa is totally a separate person with his own personality, character and destiny in accordance to Islam teachings and indeed he did not die on the cross.

Jesus Christ on the other hand died and resurrected to become One with God in accordance to Biblical scriptures and doctrines as witnessed by many people.

 

[Lunitik]

73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

This seems to be a wrong prophecy, where is the grievous penalty? It seems to me Christianity is still very much prospering... indeed, it is still the largest faith on Earth, despite Muhammad coming after. Indeed, part of that reason is exactly what you have quoted, but also because Muhammad has insisted it should only be in Arabic, thus he seems not to be a global messenger but a prophet for Arabia - the world will never adopt this language, and in fact most Muslims are adopting English simply to prosper in the world economy.

Muhammad has said "nothing exists save Allah", Jesus says "I and my father are one" - are they really saying something different? They are both saying that God is the only true being. Jesus even repeatedly says his deeds are not his own, that they are the work of God through him - similar to what Muhammad says.

Although they are not popular with the Muslims, Sufi's have been realizing the truth of what both are saying basically since the first days of Muhammad. They have emulated his meditation in the cave and realized oneness themselves - indeed these are those who are greater than the prophets of Israel. This is all Jesus is saying, but they do not say the body of Jesus is the same as the Holy Spirit - which is the truth of Allah in Christian terms, the One Life.

It is so bizarre to me that Isaac and Ishmael's descendants are still fighting - what sort of father must Abraham have been to permit this to continue for so long? Do the brothers still not see they actually agree? The stupid priests and imam's are causing them to remain fighting, now in the name of love how many have died?

It is really no surprise that more and more are leaving the line of Abraham, realizing the history of this debacle. The only problem is that it is also bringing people away from God - which is the only purpose of all the prophets, to glorify Him.

 

[Lunitik]

A question here, abdullah, is the sunni outlook on sufis as poor as some sources say? That is some report that sufism is frowned upon.

The exoteric always hate the esoteric.

Sunni's have continuously been killing Sufi's and Shi'a Muslims, many of the wars in the Middle East recently have been with the latter.

Sufi's actually aren't that prevalent in Muslim countries at all though, it is far more prevalent in India - and many Buddhists will tell you that Sufism came about with a meeting of Islam and Buddhism around 900 AD although it actually just echoes what Muhammad actually did to become a prophet - and their highest attainment is also called "prophet".

The problem is that people come to love their faith founders so much that they are ignorant to the fact this is all peoples potential. This needs to end, although we can continue utilizing those texts of the realized - none should ever be forgotten.

 

[Lunitik]

I might suggest that Muhammad is the Seal simply because he has attempted to make prophethood the goal of his faith - like a seal of approval. This of course would suggest that Sufi's are those who are his real followers, controversial, but can the prophet of peace really be aligned to these terrorists that have resulted from the exoteric nonsenses? Of course, how could the dynasties which followed conquer anyone when their peoples are in a deep love affair with the whole? Sufism is exactly that, a method for falling in love with the whole, and ultimately melting into it. Muslims do not even question the fact that the first dynasty was of the very tribe which Muhammad fought, strange.

Jesus is not the only begotten Son, Christ is, and the Bible goes on saying to take on the mind of Christ, to realize you are part of the body of Christ, in many ways it invites this reality that you are Christs. The line which has brought us Sufi's and Hasidics are teaching the same since Adam. The West has to come to terms with this, that these are merely realized men, that all can realize the same. Muhammad has tried to point us back to God, to ignore the man that manifests Him - still we go on worshiping the flesh in a roundabout way. Still we cling to the man instead of surrendering to the truth, God.

 

[farhan]

This seems to be a wrong prophecy, where is the grievous penalty?

IN the after life

but also because Muhammad has insisted it should only be in Arabic, thus he seems not to be a global messenger but a prophet for Arabia - the world will never adopt this language, and in fact most Muslims are adopting English simply to prosper in the world economy.

Well Muhammad didnt insist on any such thing. Fact of the matter is, Quran was in Arabic, and still is. Its original words are safe in its orignal language, and people who want to study it in their own language can still do it. ON the other hand Jesus spoke Aramaic, a language thats extinct now. Early manuscripts of NT are in Greek which is not the language Jesus spoke. Now one can come up with any convoluted philosophy to justify this, its a deficiency on Christianity's side, not on Islam.