morality within evolution

juantoo3 said:
Kindest Regards, Vajradhara!

Thank you most sincerely for your posts! You have placed a great deal into a context that is beginning to make sense to me now.

I did see something though that continues to puzzle me, at least in the context of this thread. You mention "fundamental nature," which it would seem implies directly what it is I am attempting to discuss. Does Buddhism look to nature as a source and influence for its moral code? If so, how does Buddhism account for the (to be nice) uglier side of nature?
Namaste juan,

in this case, "nature" is a reference to our essence. perhaps, the best western word would be "spirit". our fundamental essence, if you will, is already awakened, we simply need to learn how to recognize and actualize this fact.

now.. as for the question.. no Buddhism does not look to nature for it's moral code, as far as i've been able to discern. the moral foundations for the Buddhist path are emminently sentient-being centric being as they exist for the purpose of helping sentient beings begin the walk to the awakened state. it's fair enough to say that Buddhists in general consider these things to be temporary rafts that we use to cross to the other shore. once we are there, we don't carry the raft with us.

our view of that sort of thing is more dependent on the cultural idoms that the person holds rather than being a Buddhist thing, per se. generally speaking, there isn't an "ugly" side to nature.. that's an imputation by the mind.. nature simply is, devoide of conceptual frameworks and ideations.
 
Bodhichitta is the heart of compassion towards all sentient beings which desires their wellbeing and happiness more than it's own.
Namaste Vajradhara,

I like the concept of Bodhichitta.

For the rest of my questions, I consider myself satisfied.

Thank you very much !

Regards,

alexa ;)
 
Hi juantoo3,

I agree to find the similarities. This should give us a good ideea about the morality in the world. At least for those who belive in something.

As Vajradhara has kindly helped to understand the base in Buddhism, we can hope to get some replies from the other members of the forum, too.

I like the challenge. ;)

Regards,


alexa
 
Kindest Regards, Alexa!

alexa said:
As Vajradhara has kindly helped to understand the base in Buddhism, we can hope to get some replies from the other members of the forum, too.

I like the challenge. ;)
Then a challenge it is! :) I do hope others will add their insights, but for now it is a matter of pursuing this ourselves. I'm afraid I haven't the time to explore deeply into the religious writings of the many faiths right now, so I am going to look for summaries.

I looked here last night a bit, and I found a little, but not a great deal on moral codes or structures. I think I will have to look elsewhere and see what else I can come up with.

From memory, I seem to recall the Wiccan rede goes something like, "and it harm none, do as you will." I am sure there is an esoteric meaning to it, but on a surface level it seems in accord with the golden rule. I'm afraid pagan religions are not my strong point. They often distance themselves from Christians, perhaps rightly so. If they truly are tuned to spirit, then they should understand a spirit that means them no harm, only trying to understand. Otherwise, I suppose we'll have to "wing it."

Perhaps Vaj would help us as well with Taoism? Is that not a nature based "science/philosophy?" Although, in fairness, using those terms to describe "the way" makes it seem rather cold and distant, and I have never thought of Taoism in that manner...

Well, I'll look around a bit, as time allows, and see what I can come up with. Looking forward to see what you find, Alexa. Until then, kind regards!
 
Kindest Regards, Alexa!

this is what I have come up with so far:

Comparative religious moral codes
Hinduism:
the Ten Rules of the ethical and moral plan (Yama and Niyama in the Hindu tradition)
two categories within these "Ten Commandments": the first five commandments make up the Moral Plan (in Hindu terminology Yama) and the other five - the Ethical Plan (Niyama).
The Moral Code (in Hindu - YAMA) implies five rules of behavior in order to reach a state of profound equilibrium with the other beings.
These five rules refer to the control of certain negative tendencies, frequently met in human beings. These rules are mentioned in the secret oriental/eastern treaties as follows: non-violence, truth, non-theft, sexual purity, non-possession.
The Personal Code (in the Hindu tradition - NIYAMA) is based on the idea that external rules are sufficient for a truly deep transformation/change, and that the personality has to be restructured through a personal code involving other five rules. They refer to the perfect structure of our inner attitudes, emotions, and feelings. Consequently, they are rules of individual discipline and allow to the person who observes them to reach a state of equilibrium with one's own person and purpose in life.
The secret treaties mention them as follows: austerity, individual study, contentment, physical and mental purity, complete devotion towards God.
According to Hinduism all gods are the various representation of one true God. Hinduism states that there is only one God and the Vedas call him Brahman. The vibratory aspect of Brahman is called AUM or OM. From AUM came the 3 godheads -
Brahma [creator], Vishnu [preservor], Shiva [destroyer]. These gods when take a human form are called Avatars.
The three main Goddesses are- Saraswati [Wife of Lord Brahma; Goddess of Knowledge], Lakshmi [Wife of Lord Vishnu; Goddess of Wealth], Parvati [Wife of Lord Shiva; Goddess of Power].
Hindus believe in Powers of Nature and have gods of nature like Varuna [water], Agni [fire], Vayu [air] etc. (emphasis mine,- jt3)
- http://mailerindia.com/hindu/veda/index.php?sanadhan
-------------
Confucianism:
According to the Confucian Analects, Confucius (552-479 B.C.) transformed the societal rules of his time by integrating them into a richer and more profound system.
At the core of Confucianism is Ren, which means benevolence and can be transformed into a moral, ethical norm that people could adopt.
In the Confucian moral code, Ren (benevolence) is a basic command and all of the other codes are reflections of Ren. The Chinese character (Ren) has several definitions including benevolence, kindness, kindheartedness, humanity and virtue. In my opinion, the basic meaning of Ren is love. When one of Confucius’ disciples asked the Master to define Ren, Confucius replied, “To love all men.” So Ren is a natural instinct based on a benevolent and kind heart.
- http://www.lhup.edu/library/InternationalReview/chuanshu.htm
----------------
Shinto:
Shinto in itself has no defining morality of its own. Essentially, in the Shinto worldview, the world is good, people are good, and there is harmony - which is ever threatened by evil spirits, who must be dispelled and kept at bay. The social ethic of the Japanese people therefore comes from a close mixing of both Confuscian and Buddhist principles, with strong emphasis on honour, duty, and filial piety. -CR
Shinto seems to borrow from the moral code of Confucianism. -jt3
---------------
General info:
Comparing religion to spirituality
Many Westerners prefer to use the term spirituality rather than religion to describe their form of belief. This may reflect a large-scale disillusionment with organized religion that is occurring in much of the Western world (see Religion in Modernity). However, proponents of some forms of spirituality may represent a movement towards a more "modern"—more tolerant, less counter-factual, and more intuitive—form of religion. This is evidenced by apparently greater religious pluralism and movements such as the ecumenical movement within and transcending Christian denominations. There are corresponding moderating movements within Islam and other religious traditions.
In the East, however, spirituality is viewed as inseparable from religion. The Indic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism) have always had incorporated into their very framework primary focuses on spirituality. Yoga, for example, is a section of Hindu philosophy and informed the spiritual traditions of both Hindu and Buddhist tantra. It is an extremely detailed, rational, and scientific approach to developing control of mind and body for the purpose of realizing spiritual truths such as uniting with the Divine. It built into the structure of scriptural injunctions and various cultural frameworks a universal understanding of the divinity of man. Thus, we see that spirituality has, in many Eastern religions, no separate existence.
Spirituality, in its Western comprehension, is religion cut loose from some of its bureaucratic trappings. The concept is neutral with regard to tolerance, etc. The same disillusionment often leads in the opposite direction, toward intolerance and violence. Many extreme sects lay claim to a higher spiritual basis. Some of those professing to have attained a higher spiritual plane are actually manipulative and intolerant. (emphasis mine, -jt3. This raises many questions in my mind.)
- http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Religion

Modern adherence to religion
Religious believers are often sad to see that people disagree with the churches' perspectives on spiritual, 'eternal' beliefs by concerns they consider to be based on limited and transitory features (given the potential for an afterlife). Additional reasons for continuing adherence to mainstream religion include the following:

Moderation: Many religions have approaches that produce practices that place limitations on the behaviour of their adherents. This is seen by many as a positive influence, potentially protecting adherents from the destructive or even fatal excesses to which they might otherwise be susceptible. Many people from many faiths contend that their faith brings them fulfillment, peace, and joy, apart from worldly interests.

Authority: Most religions are authoritarian in nature, and thus provide their adherents with spiritual and moral role models, who they believe can bring highly positive influences both to adherents and society in general.

Morality: Most religions see early childhood education in religion and spirituality as essential moral and spiritual formation, whereby individuals are given a proper grounding in ethics: instilling and internalizing moral discipline.

Cultural factors: Some 'religious' individuals may have substantially secular viewpoint, but retain adherence to religious customs and viewpoints for cultural reasons, such as continuation of traditions and family unity. Judaism, for example, has a particularly strong tradition of 'secular' adherents.

Supernatural connection: Religions postulate a reality which verges on the metaphysical. Most adherents of religion consider this to be of critical importance, since it permits belief in a connection with unseen and otherwise potentially unknowable aspects of life, providing hope of eternal life.

Majesty and tradition: People can form positive views of religion based on the visible manifestations of religion, e.g., ceremonies which appear majestic and reassuringly constant, and ornate cloth.

Community: Organized religions promote a sense of community. The combination of moral and cultural common ground often results in a variety of social and support networks.

Fulfillment: Most traditional religions require sacrifice of their followers, but, in turn, the followers may gain much from their membership therein. Thus, they come away from experiences with these religions with the feeling that their needs have been filled.

Experience or emotion: For many, the practice of a religion causes an emotional high that gives pleasure to them. Such emotional highs can come from the singing of traditional hymns to the trance-like states found in the practices of the Whirling Dervishes and Yoga, among others. People continue to associate with those practices that give pleasure and, in so far as it is connected with religion, join in religious organizations that provide those practices.

Rationality: For some of those who profess a religion, their adherence is based on intellectual evaluation that has led them to feel that the teachings of that religion most closely describe reality.

- http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Religion
 
Sorry to respond to myself, but I finally found the Hindu Yama and Niyama, for comparison with the ten commandments, etc.

Panca Yama Brata, five things concerned with moral life:
1. Ahimsa, non violence.
2. Brahmacari, self control on passion.
3. Satya, faithful or sincerity.
4. Awyawaharika, act based on peace and sincerity.
5. Asteya, non stealing and non cheating.

Panca Niyama Brata, five things concerned with moral life:
1. Akrodha, not controlled by anger.
2. Guru susrusa, loyal to implement the teacher's teaching.
3. Sauca, purity of body and mind.
4. Aharalagawa, eat as much as needed.
5. Aparamada, sincerity in learning and practicing holy teaching.

Dasa Yama Brata, ten things concerned with moral life:
1. Anresangsya or Arimbawa, not egoistic.
2. Ksama, forgiving.
3. Satya, faithful or sincere.
4. Ahimsa, non violence.
5. Dama, able to advice one own self.
6. Arjawa, honest in defending the truth.
7. Ijya, loving all creature.
8. Prasada, purity of heart and never thinking about reward.
9. Madurya, polite and have good manner.
10. Mardawa, humility.

Dasa Niyama Brata, ten things concerned with moral life:
1. Dana, giving charity.
2. Ijya, devotion to the absolute and ancestors.
3. Tapa, self exercise for self endurance.
4. Dhyana, focus to the absolute.
5. Swadhyaya, learn and understand the holy teaching.
6. Upasthanigraha, controlling sexual desire.
7. Brata, faithful to one own oath.
8. Upawasa, fasting.
9. Mona, controlling speech.
10. Snana, purifying the body-and-mind, and praying.

http://www.balilife.com/spirituality/hindudharma.htm

Some of the sources I looked at also relate the name "Yama" with the Hindu god of death. Or maybe this is more accurately described: god manifested as death.
 
Namaste all,


to continue the ongoing topic..

now.. the Buddhist Precepts for Laypeople are what we'd consider to be the negative commandments, as it were. these are things not to do.

by contrast there are what are known as the 6 Paramitas or Perfections that all Buddhists strive to perfect. they are:

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1. Perfection in Generosity, Giving (Liberality)
2. Perfection in Morality (Conduct)
3. Perfection in Patience (Forebearance)
[/font]​
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4. Perfection in Diligence
5. Perfection in Meditation (Absorbtion)
[/font]​
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]6. Perfection in Wisdom[/font]​
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[/font]these Paramitas are more fully expounded than i'm doing here... so, i'll cut and poste some relevant bits about each one to provide the full flavor, so to speak.

as i'm sure you know, the Buddhist path of praxis is explained in the Noble 8 Fold Path, what you may not know is that this path is divided into three broad areas of teaching, namely sila (morality), samadhi (meditation), and prajna (wisdom).

Sila means virtue, ethics, morality, self-discipline, impeccability...

Samadhi means collectedness, concentration, reflectiveness, inquiry, mindfulness, meditation, focus.

Prajna means wisdom, gnosis, enlightened awareness, transcendental wisdom, true self-knowledge.

the first one is dana paramita, generosity: It is wise, isn't it, to let go? Why is that? Because resistance is suffering (this is explicit in the Second Noble Truth). Craving, attachment and resistance is suffering. So it is wise to let go. Externally, dana paramita implies being more generous, open, giving, serving, and donating our time and energy. Internally, it is being more generous with our emotions and generous with others, open-hearted. Not suppressing our emotions, not being miserly with our emotions; rather, allowing them and appreciating them. And innately, being generous, spontaneous, total unbounded energy. Why squelch that limitless, innate energy like a miser, as if saving your energy for "the real thing"? Here is the problem of commitment, which many people suffer from: holding back and fearing intimate engagement or total involvement. You miss your whole life that way.

Secondly, we talk about morality: it is wise to not harm. That is the essence of virtue. Externally, taking the five basic lay vows or precepts: "I shall refrain from killing and stealing and lying and sexual misconduct (exploiting others) and intoxicating myself." Internally, isn't it just as wise not to deceive ourselves and to have integrity and develop our own character? Innately, of course, we all have that purity of heart and basic goodness, and feel love naturally. Let's not lose touch with that. Let's exploit that innate, natural resource, rather than exploiting others for what we think we need and want. Let's exploit our own natural resource within, our own true spiritual inheritance. That is something we can never really lose; no one and nothing can take it away from us.

The third paramita is patience, shanti paramita. Sometimes it is mistranslated as peace. but it really means patience, forbearance, tolerance. So externally, it means, say, counting to at least ten before we kick back. Having some balance and sense of restraint. Being patient instead of being totally irritable and reactive. It means persevering through whatever twists and turns the path requires, to the goal of our aspirations. Internally, it means being patient with ourselves and having some acceptance and tolerance for ourselves, with all of theirs as well as our foibles, hang-ups, and neuroses. It is good to be cracked. It lets the light through! Recently, I read a poem that I really liked by Wendell Berry: "It is the impeded stream that sings." So let's not try to be too perfect and dull. It will just frustrate us anyway. Having a few rocks in the stream makes it sing. Even stumbling blocks can become steppingstones

Fourth is virya paramita: energy, diligence. It is often translated as effort. But that sounds so one-sided. What about effortless effort? What about the great passion of our true vocation, which we do day and night out of love? Not just the effort to get through our forty-hour week and forget about it at Friday at 5:00. How about effortless effort? Externally, it seems like effort, but internally it can be effortless effort and passion for our true spiritual life. Aren't we all interested in well-being? Does that take an effort to pursue? Are we not pursuing it? That's virya paramita: courage, fearlessness to pursue continuously our highest good.

Fifth is dhyana paramita: meditation or absorption, presence. Externally, it shows up as presence of mind or collectedness, meditation, contemplation. Internally isn't it wise to be focused and centered and aware and see what is going on, rather than being heedless, mindless, absent-minded and distracted? Not just be lost in fabrication, but to really see what is going on, right here and now. We can do that, with a little attention and focus.

And sixth, prajna paramita: the highly touted transcendental wisdom, said to be indescribable. there are descriptions, of course, which are found in the Prajna Paramita Sutra which are related as part of a teaching. it goes something along these lines:

Vimalakirti, the enlightened layman of Visali in India. He lived in the time of the Buddha. The Mahayana sutra called Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra tells his story. He was a layman with a family. He was an impeccable member of the community, an enlightened businessman. He was the sagest person in the city of Visali. All the Bodhisattvas and enlightened monks and nuns came to him and had a discussion. They all came to his bedroom, which was very small, about 6 feet by 6 feet, and somehow all the enlightened ones fit in there through the magic of interpenetration and emptiness. This august sangha gathering also included all the Bodhisattvas, including Manjusri, Avalokiteshvara, Vajrapani, and Tara. Maybe they all made themselves as small as those angels that reportedly dance on the head of a pin. The sutra says they were all there, arhats and Bodhisattvas alike, with their seats, thrones, and mounts, all in Vimalakirti's tiny chamber.
Each member of this Dharma assembly gave their views on what is transcendental wisdom. That was the subject of the discussion that day. Each one gave a description of the indescribable; this is why we love the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra. It is marvelous. With each progressive description, you think, "Ah, now we have really got it." Yet, the truth expounded seems to get better each time. Each expounder outdoes the previous, not in the sense of competitiveness, but the Dharma teaching just goes deeper and deeper. They finally get to Manjusri, the God of Wisdom. He gives his spiel. It is so marvelous. It is the ultimate spiel on nondual truth, transcendental wisdom. Then everybody bows to reverently to him -- including us the reader. What else can be said? we wonder.

Finally they all turn to Vimalakirti, and ask him to pronounce the final word on transcendental wisdom. (All this is part of the Prajna Paramita Sutra, which has dozens of thousands of Sanskrit verses.) So Vimalakirti answers. And the sutra says -- I am always overcome with emotion here, at this point -- that "his silence resounded like thunder." That was the last word on what is wisdom, what is enlightenment. It is truly ineffable, inconceivable, beyond the mind; and yet, it is so palpable, experienceable, demonstrable. Vimalakirti lived it; he embodied it. That's the principle of enlightened living: embodiment, enactment, not just merely knowing about something. That's self-realization: enacting it; embodying truth; wisdom in action as love, compassion, and impeccability.

the interested reader is directed here for more on this teaching:
http://www.dzogchen.org/teachings/talks/dtalk-95feb20.html
 
WOW !

Juan, I belive you have spent hours to write all this ! :p

I'm afraid, I didn't have the time to do my reserche part, but I'll catch you up don't worry.

As we have to check every religion, I'll take care about the pagan one. I don't think I'll find something on the net, so I have to see what I can find at the library.

Regards,

Alexa ;)
 
Kindest Regards, Alexa!

alexa said:
WOW !
Juan, I belive you have spent hours to write all this ! :p
I did spend about two hours looking things up, but "cut and paste" is a wonderful tool! That is why I included the sources so there would be no plagiarism, and proper credit would go to the actual source.

I'm afraid, I didn't have the time to do my reserche part, but I'll catch you up don't worry.

As we have to check every religion, I'll take care about the pagan one. I don't think I'll find something on the net, so I have to see what I can find at the library.
That's OK. But you might find more than you think at places like wikipedia. I used google to find the stuff I did.

Good luck! :D
 
Kindest Regards, Vajradhara!

Thank you sincerely for your post!

Vajradhara said:
Vimalakirti, the enlightened layman of Visali in India. He lived in the time of the Buddha. The Mahayana sutra called Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra tells his story. He was a layman with a family. He was an impeccable member of the community, an enlightened businessman. He was the sagest person in the city of Visali. All the Bodhisattvas and enlightened monks and nuns came to him and had a discussion. They all came to his bedroom, which was very small, about 6 feet by 6 feet, and somehow all the enlightened ones fit in there through the magic of interpenetration and emptiness. This august sangha gathering also included all the Bodhisattvas, including Manjusri, Avalokiteshvara, Vajrapani, and Tara. Maybe they all made themselves as small as those angels that reportedly dance on the head of a pin. The sutra says they were all there, arhats and Bodhisattvas alike, with their seats, thrones, and mounts, all in Vimalakirti's tiny chamber.
It is a pleasure to see that Buddhism too, has its bits that are difficult to view rationally! :)

Finally they all turn to Vimalakirti, and ask him to pronounce the final word on transcendental wisdom. (All this is part of the Prajna Paramita Sutra, which has dozens of thousands of Sanskrit verses.) So Vimalakirti answers. And the sutra says -- I am always overcome with emotion here, at this point -- that "his silence resounded like thunder." That was the last word on what is wisdom, what is enlightenment. It is truly ineffable, inconceivable, beyond the mind; and yet, it is so palpable, experienceable, demonstrable. Vimalakirti lived it; he embodied it. That's the principle of enlightened living: embodiment, enactment, not just merely knowing about something. That's self-realization: enacting it; embodying truth; wisdom in action as love, compassion, and impeccability.
Thank you for this reminder. That is the part of wisdom I have the greatest problem implementing, my personal weakness, knowing when to keep my mouth shut. ;)
 
A general thought as this develops, I wonder where and how "spirit" figures into the equation?

Love, morality, spirit. These so far seem to me the prevailing similarities across most religions, in form if not in function.
 
Hi Juan,

;) You know, you left me the funny part ? Thanks a lot !

I have just started with the pagan religions and you won't belive it, but I have found connections with the nature. There are a lot of infos, so I hope I can do a proper selection of the best one.

See you soon,

Alexa
 
Kindest Regards, Alexa!
alexa said:
;) You know, you left me the funny part ? Thanks a lot !

I have just started with the pagan religions and you won't belive it, but I have found connections with the nature. There are a lot of infos, so I hope I can do a proper selection of the best one.
Well, it wasn't intentional...;)

If you would like, I will help. I was kinda hoping for some input from around here in this category, but like I said, they often keep a distance to themselves. I don't have any problem with this, but it does make understanding a bit difficult.

Did you notice the part I put in italics under the general section of my post, concerning modern spiritualism? In my experience, not all are like that, but some are.
 
Namaste Vajradhara,

Thank you for your patience to explain us the Buddhist Precepts. It will take me some time to assimilate all of them as everything is new for me. :)

Hello again Juan,

Don't worry. You are not the only one who doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. My boss keeps reminding me from time to time. :)

juantoo3 said:
A general thought as this develops, I wonder where and how "spirit" figures into the equation?
I think this will appear in my part of the researche. :) Not right away, as I have to go step by step with the pagan religions. I have no intention to say I know everything about it. I'm not a Wicca so I can give as information only what I could find available on : paganwiccan.about.com. Those who know more about it and are ready to participate, please feel free to add or correct me as you wish.

Besides Wicca, there are a lot of other pagan religions. They have common things with Wicca, but they are all unique and separate religions I'm talking about : Asatru, Celtic, Druidry, Discordian, Hellenismos, Kemetic, Santeria, Satanism and mixing religions.

The pagan religions are polytheistic (with many Gods and Goddesses) and I'll write only about those related to nature. The topic began with it !:)

Wicca is a modern day religion based on pre-Christian religions practices and it was founded by Gerard Gardner in the early '50's. It's an Earth centered religion and celebrates the cycles and the seasons. The Wiccan don't necessary worship Earth, but it is important in their religion.They have a lot of rituals of the Moon (the Dark Moon, Drawing down the Moon, the Full Moon, the New Moon, the Lunar Eclipse). Some rituals are done solitary and others in family.
The Dark Moon is a simple ritual to banish the negative things from the life.
The 'charge' of the Goddess is felt for the first time by novice witches on their first Moon. This is the ritual of Drawing down the Moon.
In the New Moon the Sun and the Moon are in conjunction. The entire Moon appears dark.
In the Full Moon, the Moon and the Sun are in Opposite. The entire Moon is lit.
The Lunar Eclipse ritual combines the power of the Full and the New Moon at once. Any spell perfomed this night needs to be done carefully.

Essentially, all magick can be broken down into two types : drawing and banishing. During the waxing moon cycle (the period between the New Moon and the Full Moon) the work of a Wicca should be concentrated on drawing what he/she wants toward him/her (like health when there is illness around). During the waning Moon (the period between the Full Moon and the New Moon) the work is concentrated towards banishing what is not wished in life (like poverty).
The Full Moon covers 3 days and this is the time for action, for harvesting the fruits of the labor, for giving thanks.
The Dark Moon covers 3 days, too and this is the time of introspection, of looking within and meditationg on the shadow self.

Asatru (Norse Healthenism) is a tradition on old Norse belifs and it is significally different from basic Wicca. I would like to mention one of its specific Goddess. Skadi. Scandinavia was named after her and the words like shadow, skullduggery and shade came from her name,too. The life values can be given as the Nine Noble Virtues : courage, truth, honor, fidelity, discipline, hospitality, industriousness, self-reliance and perseverence. The family is greatly valued and honored. They reject any form of discrimination based on ethnicity, gender, language, nationality, race, sexual orientation or 'other devisive criteria'. ( Please consider the values as it were initially. I don't want to discuss the connection with the nazi).

Druidry. The druids were the pristhood of the ancient Celts and their beliefs are still followed today. They filled the roles of judge, doctor, deviner, mage, mystic and clerical scholar. They were capable of many magical powers such as divination and prophecy, control of the weather, healing, levitation and shape changing themselves into the forms of animals. Their education was so rigourous that at the end of it they were virtually walking encyclopedias. (sic, they didn't need the net !:) like me)
A druid's connection to nature is the source of all his power, both in society and in magic. By understanding that connection, a druid's being is joined with nature and so he becomes aware of all that is known to nature, which is all things. A Druid is a kind of nature mystic.

As it's late I have to say Good bye now.

Please let me know if you are interested to find more.

Regards,

Alexa
 
Kindest Regards, Alexa!

Wow! You've been a busy lady!

I found some stuff too, like what you did only different, and I haven't gone through it yet (I don't want to put it all up, it would take far too much room). I like the stuff you found about the moon and some of the other things you mentioned. I didn't see that in what I was looking for.

On the subject of morality, it seems pagans can't make up their minds, whether they do or don't have a moral code. Some point to the rede and say it is a basic moral code, like what I said about the golden rule. Others modify the rede to suit their personal preferences. Still others steadfastly insist paganism has absolutely no moral code whatsoever. Confusing. No mean spirit intended, but I really think some of them don't really know what they are talking about. Or if they do, they sure aren't letting others in on what they think they know. Some of the sites I visited were very paranoid, more so than any other religious sites I have visited. It makes me wonder...if there is nothing to hide, why hide? :confused: Why so scared to share?

I found something by a secular humanist that seemed interesting too. He was trying to claim monotheistic religious morality (Judaism, from there Christianity and Islam) came from paganism. This gets really confusing if pagans do not have a moral code...

It is really late and I have a lot to do tomorrow. I hope I can find the time to put something together out of what I found. Until then, kind regards. :)
 
juantoo3 said:
It makes me wonder...if there is nothing to hide, why hide? :confused: Why so scared to share?
You forget one thing Juan. They were many of them burned or hunged for sorcelerie. It's a good reason to be scared.

Most of them work in solitary and find thier own "recepies". Few of them are in a covent and as I have read it's not very easy to find one. If they don't trust you, you are not allowed to participate. So, when they are able to manage alone, in my opinion, they do not feel the need to share.

I have chosen to speak about the Moon as it's like a clock for them. You are right, the nature has nothing with the morality. It's more like a guide to their activities.

Sorry, I have to go now. ;)

Regards,

alexa
 
Kindest Regards, Alexa!

Lookee what I found!

Wicca:
Morality
Wiccan morality is ruled according to the Wiccan Rede, which (in part) states "An it harm none, do what ye will." ("An" is an archaic word meaning "if."). Others follow the slightly adapted Rede of "An it harm none do what ye will; if harm it does, do what ye must" This very simple code is central to the understanding that personal responsibility, rather than a religious authority, is where moral structure resides.
Many Wiccans also promote the Law of Threefold Return, or the idea that anything that one does may be returned to them threefold. In other words, good deeds are magnified back to the doer, but so are ill deeds.
Some Wiccans also follow, or at least consider, a set of 161 laws often referred to as Lady Sheba's Laws. Some find these rules to be outdated and counterproductive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

(I looked for Lady Sheba's 161 laws and hit several stone walls. Most were selling books. -jt3)
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What is Wicca?
Wicca is a neoPagan nature-revering religion dating back to roughly fifty years ago, give or take.
It's a nature-based religion - meaning that the holidays, deities, and belief structures are ideally centered around a holistic and nature-based point of view.
http://www.ghostdragon.net/index.php?fn=basics/faq#christian

(Which returns me to my original question, is it "right" to look to nature for moral guidance, especially when nature is a very cruel mistress and operates in what civil humans would see as an anti-moral manner. I am not casting judgement, I am asking a sincere question. -jt3)
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For these reasons, because subjective consensus morality is able to change, depends on the many rather than the few, and must have some form of reason as its basis, I believe it is most appropriate for neo-Paganism. The specific type of morality (rather than the general system of morality) which most Pagans adhere to is a variation on the Wiccan Rede - "an it harm none, do as ye will." This moral statement has an underlying reason behind it - enlightened self- interest. We obey this type of morality because it is related to ourselves - we don't do harm because we wish no harm to come to us. This is subjective consensus morality in that it is the morality of Paganism because the majority of Pagans believe it is moral. As we have no sacred scripture then there is always the possibility that this statement of ethics could change at some time in the future should the majority of Pagans decide on another type of ethics. Thus subjective consensus morality is not only the practical system by which democracy determines its morality, but also the most applicable system for Paganism.
http://www.witchvox.com/words/words_2003/e_morality.html

(This webpage is actually a very good discussion of the role of morality in neo-paganism. -jt3)
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Interview by Paul O'Donnell
Roman Emperor Constantine was a hot topic a few years ago, as historians took a look at his sometimes brutal imposition of Christianity on his realm. Now Jonathan Kirsch, a Los Angeles lawyer and self-taught biblical scholar, has written "God Against the Gods," about Constantine's successor Julian, who died before he could undo Constantine's work. Had Julian lived, Kirsch says, paganism might have shown us a safer, freer road to Western civilization. We interviewed Kirsch recently about his book.
You tell the story of the Roman Emperor Julian, known as Julian the Apostate for his attempt to roll back his predecessor Constantine's effort to Christianize the empire. What's fascinating is that he was a pagan, but was punctiliously moral. It's not entirely clear his empire would have been a less Christian place in that sense.
It’s a very important assumption that I make that there was a morality in the world of late classical paganism that was not greatly different from Jewish and Christian morality.
Is that because Jewish and Christian morality and pagan morality have a common source? Or does society organize itself along the same lines no matter what the idea of the divine may be?
I’d have to come down on the side of those who see morality as a human characteristic common to many cultures, rather than one that flows from ethical monotheism. The best argument I can make is that by the period of the Common Era, wherein Christian and Judaism are contending with the other religions in Rome, there is a great commonality of belief about what a decent life consists of. We’re taught to regard paganism as something dissolute and promiscuous and superstitious and crude and cruel, and it was not necessarily any of those things. Julian insisted on seeing a resemblance between paganism and Judaism. He says, “We’re alike in all of our religious practices, except you worship one God and we worship many gods. In all other ways we’re alike.” Certainly, Julian was not just a proper person, but almost a puritanical person.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/146/story_14661.html
(Excellent article! It also reminds me that atheists are moral people too, or so I hear over and over. So, if morality exists in a religious vacuum, it is not correct to imply that morality is a construct of religion, specifically monotheistic religion. -jt3)
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(The following article came to the exact opposite conclusion! -jt3)
On Morality: A Wiccan Viewpoint
One of the greatest contributions that Christianity and Judaism have imparted on our society is the institution of morality. Previous religions, especially those of Greece and Rome, placed little importance on the teaching of morality. This was left to the philosophers who in turn described their own moral beliefs and systems to their students, creating a moral code which was as diverse and disorganized as there were philosophers to listen to. It is difficult to imagine living in a society in which there is no absolute right and wrong . . . or is it?

The "problem" was presented to me that Wicca does not teach morality. We abide by no ten commandments, and this is true. The interesting thing, however, is that for the most part, the Ten Commandments could have been summed up in one phrase: `Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You'. This classic rule of Christianity in truth is not so far from the Wiccan rule of `An it harm none, do what ye will'. The two are, of course, not synonymous. The Rede does not prohibit the worship of any gods or goddesses, and the rede does not set down firm guidelines for moral behavior. I have repeatedly been asked, "What kind of religion does not teach morality?"
In replying to this question, the Wiccan needs to remember a few things. The first is that Wicca is a revival of the pagan religions of old, in which morality was NOT taught to begin with.
http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/morality.html
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(And to really confuse matters, try this article. -jt3)

THE PAGAN ORIGINS OF BIBLICAL MORALITY
Or - Where did Moses really get those commandments from?
One of the most pervasive claims of the Judeo-Christian tradition (*funny, I've never made such a claim. -jt3*) is that morality comes from the Biblical god and belongs only to Jews and/or Christians. It's like a mantra for some religious fundamentalists.
The very phrase "Judeo-Christian morality" explicitly takes credit for modern moral concepts, implying that non-believers are essentially incapable of moral virtue. (2) Jewish scripture has Moses introducing morality into a pagan, immoral world when he purportedly brought the 10 commandments and a long list of other laws down off Mt. Sinai. (3) Christians add Jesus as the final arbiter of moral issues.
I hope this sampling of parallels between Biblical and Bronze Age, pre-Biblical literature - by no means comprehensive - will show that claim is a myth. The Bible's moral ideas, both those that modern society still accepts and those it has rejected, are the products of pre-Biblical societies, which stressed virtue in an abstract sense and offered practical advice on everyday ethics.
The Iron Age Bible (1st millennium BCE,) is but an anthology of older beliefs and attitudes. There is no single collection of Bronze Age (3rd and 2nd millenniums BCE) moral principles, but the concerns of pre-Biblical peoples are scattered throughout their literature.
http://nosha.secularhumanism.net/essays/sierichs6.html

(Overall, a very interesting article -jt3)
--------------
That's enough for now, there's a lot here to digest. It seems there are no easy answers to my question. And even those who could answer, are not likely to agree amongst themselves.
 
alexa said:
You forget one thing Juan. They were many of them burned or hunged for sorcelerie. It's a good reason to be scared.

Most of them work in solitary and find thier own "recepies". Few of them are in a covent and as I have read it's not very easy to find one. If they don't trust you, you are not allowed to participate. So, when they are able to manage alone, in my opinion, they do not feel the need to share.
Let's see, the Salem witch hunts, which are probably about the most recent, took place sometime in the 1600's if I recall. Yet Wicca is only fifty years old...something doesn't add up. Why are wiccans using a line about burning witches, if they are not "witches?" Add in increasing public acceptance, and legal tolerance, and "in the face" insistence, and I don't quite buy that old line. I think it is an excuse to scapegoat an "other." Since many Christians are intolerant of paganism in general, they become a natural target for pagan hatred and discrimination. Pagans then focus their intolerance on Christians, and around and around it goes.

I see both sides failing to live up to their creeds. God knows enough Christians died for their faith too, many at the hands of pagans!
 
Namatse all,


here's my contribution from the Taoist side...

i've a thread in the Tao section called, funnily enough, Taoism :)

in any event... we can sum up the moral perspective in this manner:

"Humanity follows earth, earth follows heaven, heaven follows the Way, the Way follows Nature." In the final sense, therefore, Taoism, or Wayfaring, refers to the pursuit of natural laws.

These natural laws are reflected in the body (earth), the mind (heaven), and in the order of the universe (the Way of Nature). The practice of Taoism, therefore, takes place in the cultivation and refinement of the natural capacities of the human body-mind continuum and its relationship with the social milieu and the natural world."

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=821
 
Kindest Regards, Vajradhara!

Thank you for your post!

Vajradhara said:
"Humanity follows earth, earth follows heaven, heaven follows the Way, the Way follows Nature." In the final sense, therefore, Taoism, or Wayfaring, refers to the pursuit of natural laws.

These natural laws are reflected in the body (earth), the mind (heaven), and in the order of the universe (the Way of Nature). The practice of Taoism, therefore, takes place in the cultivation and refinement of the natural capacities of the human body-mind continuum and its relationship with the social milieu and the natural world."
Thank you for the clarification. I have always had a difficult time understanding Taoism, I think because it (in my experience) is seldom practiced as a single discipline. It is usually merged with something else, adding flavor so to speak. By "order of the universe (the Way of Nature)" may I presume you to mean something akin to the Hindu "dance of Shiva?" (Chopra)
Which kinda raises a question within a question. Oh my, with all due respect, perhaps you are not the person to ask. I was wondering how "spirit" figured into "nature", and at this macro level described by Tao and Hindu thought, I can see the possibility. Yet, regarding my "nature as a cruel mistress" observation, using the Christian dichotomy of good vs evil as well as Taoist yin/yang, spirit would then be as expected, at least from my tradition. I still question deriving morality from nature, even in this sense. The Christian tradition spends a great deal of teaching on discerning "spirit" (good vs evil), so following nature as such (spirit) would create a quandary. Even if one accepts that "evil" must be, as a necessary part of spirit nature, does one draw moral examples from it? (perhaps as examples of what not to do?)

Perhaps I have stumbled into an unanswerable question. Then again, maybe the answer I seek is in esoteric Judaism or Gnosis? Maybe I should look there next...
 
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