morality within evolution

[Vajradhara]

Namaste juan,


thank you for the post.

ah.. i see what you're saying and i think i see why you're having difficulties with these eastern type religious paths.

i could be way off base, so please correct me if i'm wrong.

it seems that you are looking for the authority, as it were, from which the tradition derives its moral view regarding good and evil. as you correctly point out, in the Christian tradition this is usually phased as "good vs. evil".

this is not a concept that can be applied to the Buddhist and Taoist traditions, and only to Vedanta in the most oblique manner.

the Yin/Yang of Taoist thought does not correspond to "good and evil", per se, rather, it corresponds with the passive/active aspects of awareness. often, the terms are masculine/feminine or light/dark etc. remember, Taoist thought comes from China where the world view is drastically different than is found in the west, which essentially have Greek world views. for the Taoist, the entire cosmos is Li.. organic pattern.. everything is part and parcel of the universe as an organic whole. seperating things into "good" or "bad" are derivations from the Way and are sicknesses of the mind.

the same holds true for Buddhism.. with the cavet that they could have the Indian world view or the Chinese world view.. however, i've not met any that have a Greek world view... but i suppose that there could be some.

we lable this or that for the purpose of communicating with other humans, however, our lables do not, necessarily, correspond with the actual object that we are discussing.

you are correct... Taoism is part and parcel of every aspect of Chinese thought.. hence, you have Tao in physics, maths, carpentry, religion and so forth. however, as difficult as they are to find, there are some schools of Taoism that are unadulterated.

the Way of Nature wouldn't be the same as the Dance of Shiva since Shiva is definite quality of MahaBrahma. the Tao cannot be contained in that fashion... the first lines of the Tao Te Ching say it best... The Tao that can be spoken is not the Eternal Tao.

again.. i would say that the essential difficulty seems to be in viewing the other traditions from the position of your current religious belief. they are, in many respects, non-compatible systems espeically with regards for the sources of their moral arguments.

 

[alexa]

Hello Juan,

You were really busy ! Really, I don't understand how you do it. Are you on vacation ?

Anyway, as it seems the pagan religions cannot give us what you are looking for, I'll change a little the site of researche.

So, here they are the native americans to be analysed about their morality :

Quotations:

"The culture, values and traditions of native people amount to more than crafts and carvings. Their respect for the wisdom of their elders, their concept of family responsibilities extending beyond the nuclear family to embrace a whole village, their respect for the environment, their willingness to share - all of these values persist within their own culture even though they have been under unremitting pressure to abandon them." Mr. Justice Thomas Berger, Mackenzie Valley Pipeline Inquiry, (aka the Berger Inquiry).

"Rather than going to church, I attend a sweat lodge; rather than accepting bread and toast [sic] from the Holy Priest, I smoke a ceremonial pipe to come into Communion with the Great Spirit; and rather than kneeling with my hands placed together in prayer, I let sweetgrass be feathered over my entire being for spiritual cleansing and allow the smoke to carry my prayers into the heavens. I am a Mi'kmaq, and this is how we pray." Noah Augustine, from his article "Grandfather was a knowing Christian," Toronto Star, Toronto ON Canada, 2000-AUG-9.

"If you take the Christian Bible and put it out in the wind and the rain, soon the paper on which the words are printed will disintegrate and the words will be gone. Our bible IS the wind." Statement by an anonymous Native woman.

A quote from Native American Religions by Arlene Hirschfelder and Paulette Molin (Facts on File, New York, 1992, ISBN 0-8160-2017-5) is instructive:

".....the North American public remains ignorant about Native American religions. And this, despite the fact that hundreds of books and articles have been published by anthropologists, religionists and others about native beliefs......Little of this scholarly literature has found its way into popular books about Native American religion..."

Because of the wide range of habitats in North America, different native religions evolved to match the needs and lifestyles of the individual tribe.

Religious traditions of aboriginal peoples around the world tend to be heavily influenced by their methods of acquiring food, whether by hunting wild animals or by agriculture. Native American spirituality is no exception. Their rituals and belief show a blending of interest in promoting and preserving their hunting and horticulture.

The Inuit
The traditional Inuit (Eskimo) culture is similar to those found in other circumpolar regions: Northern Russia and the Northern Scandinavian countries. Life has been precarious; there are the double challenges of the cold, and the continual threat of starvation. (The popular name for the Inuit, "Eskimo", is not used by the Inuit.).

Their religious belief is grounded in the belief that anua (souls) exist in all people and animals. Individuals, families and the tribe must follow a complex system of taboos to assure that animals will continue to make themselves available to the hunters. Many rituals and ceremonies are performed before and after hunting expeditions to assure hunting success.

An underwater Goddess Sedna or Takanaluk is in charge of the sea mammals. She is part human and part fish. She observes how closely the tribe obeys the taboos and releases her animals to the hunters accordingly. There is an corresponding array of deities who release land mammals; these are Keepers or Masters, one for each species.

The Angakut or Shaman is the spiritual leader of each tribe. He is able to interpret the causes of sickness or lack of hunting success; he can determine the individual or family responsible and isolate the broken taboo. In a manner similar to Shamans in may other cultures, he enters a trance with the aid of drum beating and chanting. This allows his soul to leave his body and traverse great distances to determine the causes of sickness and other community problems.

Eastern Subarctic, Eastern Woodlands, Plains and Southwest Cultures
Native religions in these areas share some similarities, and differ significantly from Inuit culture described above. Tribes also differ greatly from each other. Spiritual elements found in some (but not all) non-Inuit native religions are:

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Deity: A common concept is that of a dual divinity: [/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]a Creator who is responsible for the creation of the world and is recognized in religious ritual and prayers[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]a mythical individual, a hero or trickster, who teaches culture, proper behavior and provides sustenance to the tribe.[/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]There are also spirits which control the weather, spirits which interact with humans, and others who inhabit the underworld. Simultaneously the Creator and the spirits may be perceived as a single spiritual force, as in the unity called Wakan-Tanka by the Lakota and Dakota.

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[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Creation: Individual tribes have differing stories of Creation. One set of themes found in some tribes describes that in the beginning, the world was populated by many people. Most were subsequently transformed into animals. Natives thus feel a close bond with animals because of their shared human ancestry. Dogs are excluded from this relationship. This bond is shown in the frequent rituals in which animal behavior is simulated. Each species has its master; for example, the deer have a master deer who is larger than all the others. The master of humans is the Creator.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Emergence of the Tribe: This is a concept found extensively in the Southwest. The universe is believed to consist of many dark, underground layers through which the humans had to climb. They emerged into the present world through a small hole in the ground - the world's navel. Other tribes believe that their ancestors have been present in North America as far back as there were humans.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Sacred Texts: Many tribes have complex forms of writing. Other tribes have preserved their spiritual beliefs as an oral tradition.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Afterlife: In general, Native religions have no precise belief about life after death. Some believe in reincarnation, with a person being reborn either as a human or animal after death. Others believe that humans return as ghosts, or that people go to an other world. Others believe that nothing definitely can be known about one's fate after this life. Combinations of belief are common.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Cosmology: Again, many tribes have unique concepts of the world and its place in the universe. One theme found in some tribes understands the universe as being composed of multiple layers. The natural world is a middle segment. These layers are thought to be linked by the World Tree, which has its roots in the underground, has a trunk passing through the natural world, and has its top in the sky world.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Shamans: Although the term "Shaman" has its origins in Siberia, it is often used by anthropologists throughout the world to refer to Aboriginal healers. Spirits may be encouraged to occupy the Shaman's body during public lodge ceremonies. Drum beating and chanting aid this process. The spirits are then asked to depart and perform the needed acts. Other times, Shamans enter into a trance and traverse the underworld or go great distances in this world to seek lost possessions or healing.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Vision Quest: Young boys before or at puberty are encouraged to enter into a period of fasting, meditation and physical challenge. He separates himself from the tribe and go to a wilderness area. The goal is to receive a vision that will guide his development for the rest of his life. They also seek to acquire a guardian spirit who will be close and supportive for their lifetime. Girls are not usually eligible for such a quest. [/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Renewal Celebrations: The Sun Dance amongst the Plains Natives is perceived as a replay of the original creation. Its name is a mistranslation of the Lakota sun gazing dance. Other tribes use different names. It fulfilled many religious purposes: to give thanks to the Creator, to pray for the renewal of the people and earth, to promote health, etc. It also gave an opportunity for people to socialize and renew friendships with other groups. A sweat lodge purifies the participants and readies them for lengthy fasting and dancing. It was successfully suppressed in most tribes by the Governments of the US and Canada. However, it survived elsewhere and is now being increasingly celebrated.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Sweat Lodge: This is structure which generates hot moist air, similar to a Finnish sauna. It is used for rituals of purification, for spiritual renewal and of healing, for education of the youth, etc. A sweat lodge may be a small structure made of a frame of saplings, covered with skins, canvas or blanket. A depression is dug in the center into which hot rocks are positioned. Water is thrown on the rocks to create steam. A small flap opening is used to regulate the temperature. As many as a dozen people can be accommodated in some lodges.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Hunting ceremonies: these involve the ritual treatment of a bear or other animal after its killing during a successful hunt. The goal is to appease its spirit and convince other animals to be willing to be killed in the future.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Prophets: The Abramic Religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) trace their development through a series of patriarchs and prophets. Native religions do not have as many corresponding revered persons in their background. Some Native prophets include Handsome Lake in the Iroquois Confederacy, Sweet Medicine of the Cheyenne, and White Buffalo Woman of the Lakota & Dakota tribes. [/font]

What do you think about this ? I like the idea of a Vision Quest, but I don't like the girls are left out.

I'll wait for your comments.

Regards,

alexa




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[alexa]

Here is something about right and wrong in native american ethics :

Concepts of right and wrong in traditional Native American societies tend to be attached to actions that either promote or diminish the even flow of life -- the balance -- that must be kept at all times. Human beings have obligations to behave in certain ways toward all other aspects of creation. If these obligations are honored, harmony and balance are preserved. Poor relationships of any kind -- relationships that fail to follow patterns laid down in mythic time -- destroy the balance, whether it is a relationship between human and human, human and spirit, human and animal, or human and plant. The Navajo word hozho points to all of this. Although it is difficult to translate into English, its sense is of balance, harmony, beauty, and completeness. Wrong actions are those that disrupt balance and harmony, jeopardizing the wellbeing of a people and the cosmos as a whole.


The Cherokee, a people who share characteristics of both Woodlands and Southeastern regions, developed a complex system of keeping this balance. In their world, all phenomena belonged to groups of similar beings, each of which had its opposite. Opposing groups must never be associated with each other except with strict controls and ritual limits. Men and women were members of two such groups (masculine and feminine), and their contacts were carefully controlled. Fire and water were another such pair. A different, crucial kind of balance was achieved among human beings, animals, and plants. According to traditional Cherokee narratives, humankind's irresponsible killing of animals for food and clothing caused great resentment among the animals, who decided to infect humankind with a new disease every time an animal was killed. Plants took pity on the suffering humans and offered themselves, with their wisdom, as cures for the animal plagues. Ever since that time, plants have been allies of the Cherokee, and hunters have taken great care to follow proper rituals to honor the spirits of animals killed in the hunt. Each tribe developed its own unique formulas connecting human behavior to the patterns of the universe. Sometimes the resulting laws were as complex as those of the Mississippian priesthoods in the Southeast. Sometimes they laid subtle ceremonial requirements on the members of exclusive groups, such as the kivas of the Southwest or the warrior societies of the Plains. Sometimes they were simple and unambiguous, almost absorbed with mothers' milk. But in every case, they attempted to align the tribe's actions with spiritual realities perceived in the universe around them.

Here you have the links releated :

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/naspirit.html

www.stormwind.com/common/nareligion.html

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Vajradhara!

Thank you most sincerely!

it seems that you are looking for the authority, as it were, from which the tradition derives its moral view regarding good and evil.

Ummm, yes, I guess this is correct.

this is not a concept that can be applied to the Buddhist and Taoist traditions, and only to Vedanta in the most oblique manner.

Very well. If I may ask, surely the Eastern traditions, at least among the laity, do have some moral concept of right and wrong? If I understood what I read about Confucianism, that would be based on honor, not looking to nature as such for moral example.

the Yin/Yang of Taoist thought does not correspond to "good and evil", per se, rather, it corresponds with the passive/active aspects of awareness.

Very well, I stand corrected in my assessment.

seperating things into "good" or "bad" are derivations from the Way and are sicknesses of the mind.

Just curious, what does one call deviations from the Way? In other words, if one is not in accord with the Way, how is that described to a third party?

we lable this or that for the purpose of communicating with other humans, however, our lables do not, necessarily, correspond with the actual object that we are discussing.

Understood. Eastern traditions focus on the experience, Western traditions focus on explanation (labels). Yes, I am approaching from the point of explanation, it is the way I know.

The Tao that can be spoken is not the Eternal Tao.

Yet surely the "priest" or adept must have some method of teaching the new recruit. I understand, the experience is the thing. I have not the experience, I am seeking the training manual for the purpose of understanding. By the way (pardon the pun), you're doing a great job!

again.. i would say that the essential difficulty seems to be in viewing the other traditions from the position of your current religious belief. they are, in many respects, non-compatible systems espeically with regards for the sources of their moral arguments.

Actually, for this exercise, I am trying to set my personal beliefs aside. That may not be fully possible, but I am trying (another bad pun ). Truth be told, I am torn on the subject, hence my original question. I want to believe I can take a neutral position for this in an effort to see and understand, in order to come away with a better informed decision for myself. Does this better explain my motivation?

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Alexa!

What a brilliant stroke of thought! Native American traditions would seem to be a natural! (I'm bad about puns tonight )

Concepts of right and wrong in traditional Native American societies tend to be attached to actions that either promote or diminish the even flow of life -- the balance -- that must be kept at all times.

Balance! Of course!

Although it is difficult to translate into English, its sense is of balance, harmony, beauty, and completeness. Wrong actions are those that disrupt balance and harmony, jeopardizing the wellbeing of a people and the cosmos as a whole.

I wonder how much of this corresponds in general terms with neo-pagan and Eastern traditions?

...they attempted to align the tribe's actions with spiritual realities perceived in the universe around them.

One must remember that tribal societies lived harsh and brutal lives.

Now that I think about it, does tribal morality translate well into modern civil society? In some tribes, part of the rite of passage for a boy into manhood involved killing an enemy. "War" was a regular part of life, even if it was not war in the sense that Westerners think now. It was morally acceptable to steal your enemy's ponies.

Oh my, I think you've hit on something. Now to sort it out...

 

[alexa]

Now that I think about it, does tribal morality translate well into modern civil society?

I was sure you will love it.

Maybe this is the answer you are looking for. Let's think about it ! The tribal societies have no choice than to take nature as a guide of their morality. This is the beginning ! The indians didn't know to write and to read. All their heritage had been transmitted orally.

In my opinion, the moral as we can see it presently, it's the result of the human society. Am I wrong ?

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Alexa!

Thank you.

I was sure you will love it.

I do!

Maybe this is the answer you are looking for. Let's think about it ! The tribal societies have no choice than to take nature as a guide of their morality. This is the beginning ! The indians didn't know to write and to read. All their heritage had been transmitted orally.

Of course, we do now know how to read and write. Morality is still taught in childhood, mainly from our parents, whether "tribal" or "civil."

In my opinion, the moral as we can see it presently, it's the result of the human society. Am I wrong ?

That is what I have long thought, that morality was the result of a society realizing the benefit of working together. It is difficult to thrive alone, it is easier for all involved if everyone pulls together for the benefit of the group. Some societies formalized morality in the form of laws, whether religious or secular (Code of Hammurabi, Ten Commandments). Other societies kept an informal oral tradition, such as the tribal societies you brought up. I would think that situations and circumstances govern what a moral code is made up of. So, is nature based morality a valid moral code for a modern civil society? I do not wish to form an opinion just yet, but it would seem so far that nature based morality is counter to what a civil society requires. Am I mistaken?

 

[alexa]

Good morning Juan,

O.K. So the show must go on !

Let's see what we've got till now :

1. in the tribal societies, with an oral tradition, the nature is the most important factor in their lives. The morality grows up from nature.

2. in the pagan religions they don't necessary worship the nature, but it's important as a calendar for their activities. They are polytheistic.

I canot attribute no. 3 for the moment. I didn't see the role of nature in buddism, taoism, judaism and christianity.

Do you have any ideea, where we should look next ?

Regards,

Alexa

 

[Ciel]

Thank you all. It's a fine balance in conception of understanding happening here.
Juantoo3, you wrote;" I wonder where and how "spirit" figures into the equation."
Spirit enters when there is respect. It is necessary to have depth of feeling and empathy for the natural worlds. But also to realise that humanity is able to see a greater overview, when there is balance in the soul and spirit, a balanced natural environment is created, and respect is born from both sides. The spiritual and interlect of morality in humanity and the unassuming morality of nature. The importance in the understanding that all things were made to work together in illumination.

 

[alexa]

Welcome Ciel in our conversation. God knows it's not an easy stuff to debate. But we are trying to see each part of the world as detached as possible.

 

[alexa]

Juan, I think I have found something interesting as a tool of our investigation.

The Kluckhohn-Murray aphorism (1953):

Every human is in certain respects
a. like all other humans.
b. like some other humans.
c. like no other human.

Major Religions of the World
Ranked by Number of Adherents

Last modified 6 September 2002.

(Sizes shown are approximate estimates, and are here mainly for the purpose of ordering the groups, not providing a definitive number. This list is sociological/statistical in perspective.)

1. Christianity: 2 billion
2. Islam: 1.3 billion
3. Hinduism: 900 million
4. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
5. Buddhism: 360 million
6. Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
7. primal-indigenous: 150 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million
9. Sikhism: 23 million
10. Juche: 19 million
11. Spiritism: 14 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
13. Baha'i: 6 million
14. Jainism: 4 million
15. Shinto: 4 million
16. Cao Dai: 3 million
17. Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
18. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
19. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
20. Rastafarianism: 700 thousand
21. Scientology: 600 thousand
22. Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand

The adherent counts presented in the list above are estimates of the number of people who have at least a minimal level of self-identification as adherents of the religion. Levels of participation vary within all groups. These numbers tend toward the high end of reasonable worldwide estimates. Valid arguments can be made for different figures, but if the same criteria are used for all groups, the relative order should be the same. Further details and sources are available below and in the Adherents.com main database.

The Adherents.com "Major Religions" list presented on this web page differs from classical lists because it draws more from an extremely large body of contemporary affiliation data, rather than relying heavily on the lists and texts of past commentators (Hudson Smith, Noss, Barrett, etc.).

There are many distinct religions or religious movements which have more adherents than some of the classical world religions, but which are not part of the classical list for various reasons. These reasons include:

• the religions which are not included on the classical list are too new (Scientology, Neo-Paganism)
  
• they are concentrated in only one country (Cao Dai, Ch'ondogyo, Tenrikyo)
  
• they lack identifiable central organizations or unifying scriptural literature (Neo-Paganism, New Age, Spiritism)
  
• their adherents primarily name a different, more established traditional religion as their religious preference (most practitioners of Vodoun are nominal Catholics, practitioners of New Age religions are often nominally Protestant, Catholic or Jewish)
  
• their religion is still strongly associated with a major religion from which it arose, but no longer wishes to be an official part of (Tenrikyo and many other Japanese New Religious Movements, as well as many religions emerging from Indian/Hindu environments)

See more on : www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

I begun this morning a classification, but I think I have to reconsider. The area of reserche is large now, that it will take a while to go through it.

Like I said before. I really like the challenge !

I'll wait for your comments.

Regards,

Alexa

 

[Ciel]

Alexa, thank you,

'We are trying to see each part of the world as detached as possible

But maybe it all becomes a little too complex untill it is seen as a whole.

Love Ciel

 

[alexa]

But maybe it all becomes a little too complex untill it is seen as a whole.

Hello again, Ciel,

Believe me, I try to see the whole in all world's religions.

Here you have a quote from the first post of Juantoo3. Maybe this can help to understand where we try so hardly to get in our posts.

Can morality be the result of natural evolution? Or, as Gould implies, is this a matter of human psycho-social development that cannot be adequately addressed by scientific scholarship? Can nature based religions rightfully claim scientific basis for their moralities? Or should the whole subject of moral development be held aside, restricted to the "magisteria" of religion?

Vajradhara has helped us with some of eastern religions (buddism and taoism).

We had also a short look into christian, pagan religions and native american's beliefs.

Please feel free to choose any of the world's religion and try to find the role of nature in evolution and its basic moral code.

The purpose is to understand the evolution of the morality and not to judge any religion.

Thanks a lot for your participation ,

Alexa

 

[Ciel]

Thank you Alexa,
Having read and contemplated all posts on this thread,there is a wealth of information here, well researched. My attempt was to contribute from the domain of one outside recognised religeon, maybe call it enigma, or an enlightened ordinary Joe, who has given the original quote the greatest consideration.
Love Ciel

 

[alexa]

My attempt was to contribute from the domain of one outside recognised religeon, maybe call it enigma, or an enlightened ordinary Joe, who has given the original quote the greatest consideration.

Do you mean a new religion ?

 

[Ciel]

Alexa,
There is God also outside the boundaries of religeon.

 

[lunamoth]

Hello, I hope you do not mind my chirping in here. The conversation is very interesting!

Reading the OP I thought of the book The Moral Animal. I read it several years ago and promptly passed it on, so I don't have it on hand. But, I recall that its hypothesis was that morality is rooted in biology and subject to evolution/natural selection pressures. The chapters that left the deepest imprint on my somewhat hard head were those about how morality is linked to child bearing/rearing and that much of what we think of as morality can be putatively explained by the large amount of energy it takes to successfully raise a human to reproductive age.

 

[alexa]

LOL Ciel,

I know there is a God. I'm a Christian.

If you the patience to read the previsous posts, you can see there are a lot of religions on Earth and not all of them have a God. At least not as described in judaism and christianity.

This dosn't mean they are wrong. We have to consider the history and the tradition in each country. We all have our path to follow, so we are not aloud to say one path is good and the other is wrong.

The morality in society evolves like any ordinary science. And this is exactly what we try to follow.

 

[alexa]

Hello lunamoth,

You are welcome !

Can you remember more about the theory in this book ?

Alexa

 

[Ciel]

Alexa, it's really okay.
Yes God is seen in many different ways and many different interpretations.There is no question on the validity of connection.
I understand and respect we are all of different intention.
I see morality as heartfelt, filtered through God, soul, spirit.
If this can be called the science of life, then yes.
In peace.Ciel