morality within evolution

The Moral Animal

I've been re-reading The Moral Animal and put some quotes below that I found interesting, relevant and/or amusing. Toward the end of this it starts to get more relevant to the discussion at hand. What I am finding interesting so far is that even though the ideas about parental investment might expalin why we feel generosity and tenderness, it suggests to me even more clearly why we need "something more" to act honorably.

The Moral Animal [Why We Are the Way We Are: The New Science of Evolutionary Psychology] by Robert Wright (1994)

Part 1: Sex, Romance and Love.

Chapter 2. Male and Female.

Playing God: “So, while there are various reasons why it could make Darwinian sense for a woman to mate with more than one man (maybe the first man was infertile, for example), there comes a time when having more sex just isn’t worth the trouble. Better to get some rest or grab a bite to eat. For a man, unless he’s really on the brink of collapse or starvation, that times never comes.”
“Darwin’s failure, then, was a failure to see what a deeply precious commodity females are. He saw their coyness had made them precious, but he didn’t see that they were inherently precious--precious by virtue of their biological role in reproduction, and the resulting slow rate of female reproduction.”

Testing the Theory: “In species after species, females are coy and males are not. Indeed, males are so dim in their sexual discernment that they may pursue things other than females. Among some kinds of frogs, mistaken homosexual courtship is so common that a ‘release call’ is used by males who find themselves in the clutches of another male to notify him that they’re both wasting their time. Male snakes, for their part, have been known to spend a while with dead females before moving on to a live prospect. And male turkeys will avidly court a stuffed replica of a female turkey. In fact, a replica of a female turkey’s head suspended fifteen inches from the ground will generally do the trick. The male circles the head, does its ritual displays, and then (confident, presumable, that its performance has been impressive) rises into the air and comes down in the proximity of the female’s backside, which turns out not to exist. The more virile males will show such interest even when a wooden head is used, and a few can summon lust for a wooden head with no eyes or beak.”
“In a sense, dreaming up plausible stories is what evolutionary biologists do. But that’s not the damning indictment. (referring to criticism by non-Darwinians) The power of a theory, such as the theory of parental investment, is gauged by how much data it explains and how simply, regardless of when the data surfaced (i.e., before or after the predictive hypothesis has been made).”
Further discussion about the related prediction (to the parental investment hypothesis) that species where the male plays a larger role in rearing of offspring there will be a tendency toward role reversal in courtship and mating. A few examples where this is true are given (seahorses, some birds, the Panamanian poison-arrow frog, a water bug, and the Mormon cricket.
Apes and Us. “Amid the great variety of social structure in these species (orangutan, gorilla, chimps, pygmy chimps and bonobos), the basic theme of this chapter stands out, at least in minimal form: males seem very eager for sex and work hard to find it; females work less hard. This isn’t to say the females don’t like sex....And, intriguingly, the females of the species most closely related to humans--chimpanzees and bonobos--seem particularly amenable to a wild sex life, including a variety of partners. Still, female apes don’t do what male apes do: search high and low, risking life and limb, to find sex, and to find as much of it, with as many different partners, as possible;...”
Animals and the Unconscious. “A common reaction to the new Darwinian view of sex is that it makes perfect sense as an explanation for animal behavior--which is to say, for the behavior of nonhuman animals.” Then a bit about comparing the poor turkey mating with a wooden head and a man viewing pornography. “To a layperson, it may seem natural that the evolution of reflective, self-conscious brains would liberate us from the base dictates of our evolutionary past. To an evolutionary biologist, what seems natural is roughly the opposite: the human brains evolved not to insulate us from the mandate to survive and reproduce, but to follow it more effectively, if more pliably;...” “At some point in gibbon (a primate separated from humans by about 20 million years) evolution, circumstances began to encourage much male parental investment. The males regularly stick around and help provide for the kids. In one gibbon species the males actually carry the infants, something male apes aren’t exactly known for....Well, human males too have been known to carry around infants, and to stay with their families. Is it possible that at some time over the last few million years something happened to us rather like what happened to the gibbons? Have male and female sexual appetites converged at least enough to make monogamous marriage a reasonable goal?”

Chapter 3. Men and Women.

“Are human males and females born to form enduring bonds with one another: The answer is hardly an unqualified yes for either sex. Still, it is closer to a yes for both sexes that it is in the case of, say, chimpanzees. In every human culture on the anthropological record, marriage--whether monogamous or polygamous, permanent or temporary--is the norm, and the family is the atom of social organization.” “At some point, in other words, extensive male parental investment (MPI) entered our evolutionary lineage.” “In Robert Trivers’s 1972 paper on parental investment, her remarked, ‘One can, in effect, treat the sexes as if they were different species, the opposite sex being a resource relevant to producing maximum surviving offspring.’”...”But to a distressing extent--and an extent that was unclear before his paper--this metaphor does capture the overall situation; even with high MPI, and in some ways because of it, a basic underlying dynamic between men and women in mutual exploitation. They seem, at times, designed to make each other miserable.”

What Women Want. Starts with some discussion of women being attracted to wealthy and powerful men. Then “Of course, ambition and industriousness are things a female might look for even in a low-MPI species, as indices of genetic quality. Not so, however, for her assessment of the male’s willingness to invest. A female in a high-MPI species may seek signs of generosity, trustworthiness, and especially, an enduring commitment to her in particular.”
“Why should women be so suspicious of men? After all, aren’t males in a high-MPI species designed to settle down, buy a house, and mow the lawn every weekend? Here arises the first problem with terms like love and pair bonding. Males in high-MPI species are, paradoxically, capable of greater treachery than males in low-MPI species. For the ‘optimal male course...is a mixed strategy.’ Even if long-term investment is their main aim, seduction and abandonment can make genetic sense, provided it doesn’t take too much from the offspring in which the male does invest. The bastard youngsters may thrive even without parental investment; they may, for that matter, attract investment from some poor sap who is under the impression that they’re his. So males in a high-MPI species should, in theory, be ever alert for opportunistic sex.”
 
Re: The Moral Animal

:D That's funny ! I prefer not to do any other comment in respect for our 'males' interlocuters. ;)
 
Re: The Moral Animal

alexa said:
:D That's funny ! I prefer not to do any other comment in respect for our 'males' interlocuters. ;)

Yes, but not so fast! Here's a bit more. Perhaps this book should have been named "The Amoral Animal."

“That male commitment is in limited supply--that each man has only so much time and energy to invest in offspring--is one reason females in our species defy stereotypes prevalent elsewhere in the animal kingdom. Females in low-MPI species--this is, in most sexual species--have no great rivalry with one another. Even if dozens of them have their hearts set on a single, genetically optimal make, he can, and gladly will, fulfill their dreams; copulation doesn’t take ong. But in a high-MPI species such as ours, where a female's ideal is to monoplolize her dream mate--competition with other females is inevitable.” “Females in a high-MPI species will hardly be passive and guileless. And they will sometimes be the natural enemies of one another.”

What do Men Want?
Youth, for the obvious relationship to fertility, and beauty, which is related to youth. Preference for youth by males found in 37 out of 37 cultures studied by David Buss, 1989. And “when is comes to assessing character--to figuring out if you can trust a mate--a male’s discernment may again differ from a female’s...Whereas the woman’s natural fear is the withdrawl of his investment, his natural fear is that the investment is misplaced. Not long for this world are the genes of a man who spends his time rearing children who aren’t his.” Martin Daly and Margo Wilson tested the idea that “anitcuckoldery technology” might be built into men. Proposed that male and female jealousy would differ: males would not stand for sexual infidelity while females would not stand for emotional infidelity. Born out by folk wisdom and considerable data. “David Buss placed electrodes on men and women and had them envision their mates doing various disturbing things. When men imagined sexual infidelity, their heart rates took leaps of a magnitude typically induced by three successful cups of coffee....For women, things were reversed: envisoining emotional infidelity--redirected love, not supplementary sex--brought the deeper physiological distress.”

What Else Do Women Want? Why would a woman cheat on a man? What reward justifies the gamble of incurring her mate’s wrath and withdrawl of resources? One idea: for gift/resource extraction. More mates, more gifts. Also related to the fact of concealed ovulation (men don’t know when women are fertile)--extends the period of gift extraction and also keeps men guessing whether a baby is theirs. In primate species with concealed ovulation males treat offspring that might be theirs more kindly. At the other end of the spectrum, male langur monkeys kill the offspring of a potential mate that were not sired by them.
“In a high-MPI speices, the female seeks two things: good genes and high ongoing investment. She may not find them in the same package. One solution would be to trick a devoted but not especially brawny or brainy mate into raising the offspring of another male. Again, cryptic ovulation would come in handy, as a treachery facilitator.”
 
Re: The Moral Animal

It's difficult to believe all these things have been written by a male.

Unless, Robert Wright is in reality a woman determined for a revenge.

Even though, the author has a low opinion on women, too.

This is what I call a really cynic analyse of the human being. :(
 
Re: The Moral Animal

Kindest Regards, Alexa and Lunamoth!

Wonderful post, Luna!

alexa said:
This is what I call a really cynic analyse of the human being. :(
Yes, but at the same time, how brutally honest!

Is there greater spiritual value in brutal honesty, or in kindhearted subtlety? Is a lie, a lie? Is a "little white" lie as much an improper wrong as a deliberate deceit is?

Is there greater spiritual value in understanding this brutally honest nature of ourselves and "awakening" our inner animal, or in suppressing our animal nature (generally among the masses as well as individual self-delusion)? That is, on the social level as well as the individual level.

Is it better, or only easier, to comfort ourselves with the mental distraction of a corporate logo to ignore the fact that the hamburger we just ate was once a living breathing creature that was ritually slaughtered? (but that's ok, we didn't kill it, we just ate it)

Or maybe I just think too much? ;)
 
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Re: The Moral Animal

juantoo3 said:
Is there greater spiritual value in brutal honesty, or in kindhearted subtlety? Is a lie, a lie? Is a "little white" lie as much an improper wrong as a deliberate deceit is?
Hello Juan,

In my modest opinion, we cannot associate something of a spiritual value with "brutal" and whatever comes after this word.

A spiritual value is supposed to grow you up, upper than your usual menthal state. A spiritual value is supposed to help you realize your devine nature hidden deep inside of you.

An animal lives only to eat and reproduce. It cannot realize the beauty of the spirituality in the world. That's why the human being is, at least in theory, on a higher level of evolution. Those humans who live only to eat and reproduce are on the same level as an animal. :D

Regards,

Alexa
 
An interesting quote by John Stuart Mill, a utilitarianist of Darwin's day:

"In the golden rule of Jesus of Nazareth, we read the complete spirit of the ethics of utility. To do as one would be done by, and to love one's neighbour as oneself, constitute the ideal perfection of utilitarian morality."

Utlitarianism, I gather, is the assertion that happiness is better than suffering and morality is based in achieving the greater happiness (least suffering) for the greatest number of people. In The Moral Animal, Wright postulates that this is the lowest common denominator for all moral systems, "the only basic part that we all share." Mill surmised that the way to maximize overall happiness was for everyone to be self-sacrificing.
 
And another quote from R. Wright (throughout The Moral Animal Wright brings in Darwin's personal insights and private life):

"Once Darwin fathomed natural selection, he surely saw how deeply his ethics were at odds with the values it implies. This insidius lethality of a aprasitic wasp, the cruelty of a cat playing with a mouse--these are, after all, just the tip of the iceberg. To ponder natural selection is to be staggered by the amount of suffering and death that can be the prices for a single, slight advance in organic design."
 
Another on point quote from TMA:

"We are potentially moral animals--which is more than any other animal can say--but we aren't naturally moral animals. To be moral animals, we must realize how thoroughly we aren't."

Is this the basis/need for the story of The Fall? Is this why we have a "God-shaped hole?"

And where did this need for morality come? It seems that the evolution of self-consciousness would be fairly detrimental to a selfish gene. Why all the extra baggage of morality? It seems to me that here is better "evidence" for God than in any claim from Intelligent Design about the structure of the eye. Not that we are perfectly created, but that we are imperfectly so. And yet, here we are.
 
lunamoth said:
"We are potentially moral animals--which is more than any other animal can say--but we aren't naturally moral animals. To be moral animals, we must realize how thoroughly we aren't."
I agree with that.

Let's hope Juan agrees too. If not, we'll have to work hard to find another answer. :D

Just kidding Juan,

Alexa
 
Kindest Regards, Luna and Alexa!
lunamoth said:
And where did this need for morality come? It seems that the evolution of self-consciousness would be fairly detrimental to a selfish gene. Why all the extra baggage of morality? It seems to me that here is better "evidence" for God than in any claim from Intelligent Design about the structure of the eye. Not that we are perfectly created, but that we are imperfectly so. And yet, here we are.
Wow! Awesome contribution!

I'm working on another question in my head, but I have company visiting so posting it before I can think it through is not gonna happen. Yuck, my syntax is horrible this morning, apologies! :)
 
what "god shaped hole"?


what shape is God?

besides which, though i know that physicists don't like it, the Anthropic Principle would be another method of explaning the how of our physical being.
 
More on eugenics . . .

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics)

"However, the initial principle defined by Galton, was directly in connection with the teaching and work of Darwin, himself very influenced by Malthus. According to Darwin, the mechanisms of the natural selection are thwarted by human civilization. One of the objectives of civilization is somehow to help the underprivileged ones, therefore to be opposed to the natural selection responsible for extinction of the weakest. According to eugenicists, the loss of effectiveness could lead to an increasing number of individuals who would have normally been eliminated through natural selection processes. Eugenicists thus propose to promote actions to balance effects of natural selection mechanism loss within civilizations. This basic principle inspired numerous and very diverse philosophies, scientific or pseudo-scientific theories and social practices."

The idea for many adherents of the school of Eugenics was to actually and deliberately "override" morality in the name of biological progress. The implicit argument was that a morality that condoned helping the poor and the weak was contrary to the evolutionary process. It was particularly wide-sweeping in its application and acceptance when it was married with the concept of human "races."

It's important to note that the philosophy of eugenics gathered its earliest steam in America, long before Hitler came across it. Indeed, according to American Eugenicist and author of "The Case of Sterilization", Leon Whitney, both he and fellow American Eugenicist Madison Grant both received personal letters of thanks from the Fuhrer. According to Whitney, Grant's letter from Hitler included the statement that the Fuhrer considered Grant's "The Passing of the Great Race" as his "Bible."
 
Kindest Regards, Abogado!

I don't know why I have a problem remembering the term "eugenics," but I thank you for the reminder.

It appears you are wise enough to make the distinction, but for the sake of others I think it is important to remind that out of respect because of some recent events on this forum, we need to take care this conversation doesn't place any great focus on the political aspects.

The question still remains however, even in the light just presented. Would a eugenic focused moral philosophy be a better path for humanity in general? Or is it better for the most in disregarding our natural propensities and reach beyond?

I did think the connection with Malthus interesting. :) Malthusian population control carries its own moral implications not easily resolved.
 
I'm going to take a stab at forming my most recent question.

In terms of seeking spirit, of attempting to be most in harmony with the universal IS, is it better to pursue a path that stresses our inherent human nature, of being "more human?" Or it is better to pursue a path that transcends our human nature, to "rise above" our human-ness?
 
juantoo3 said:
Kindest Regards, Abogado!

The question still remains however, even in the light just presented. Would a eugenic focused moral philosophy be a better path for humanity in general? Or is it better for the most in disregarding our natural propensities and reach beyond?
That's an odd question on several levels I think. First, what is a "better path for humanity" and does such a term have any meaning when we are talking about an amoral biological system? If humanity as we know it is "selected out" is that a moral "good" or "evil" or is it just evolution doing its business?

Second, is "evolution" responsible for Eugenics? Is our greater genetic representation in the biosphere achieved through applying our knowledge to override the innate sentiments of "morality?" And should that be our goal? Or should we have any "goal"?

Third, has "morality" outlived its biological usefulness and primed itself for extinction?

The paradigm shift between the amorality of ecology and a discussion of "morality within evolution" may simply be impossible. Eugenics tried to make that shift - to build a "morality" out of the amorality of the "evolutionary process." Did it work? Some would argue that Eugenics brought about such a crisis of conscience through WWII that it marked the beginning of end of overt European and American Colonialism and the racist ideologies that justified it.
 
juantoo3 said:
I'm going to take a stab at forming my most recent question.

In terms of seeking spirit, of attempting to be most in harmony with the universal IS, is it better to pursue a path that stresses our inherent human nature, of being "more human?" Or it is better to pursue a path that transcends our human nature, to "rise above" our human-ness?
Interesting question juan.

Does the question presuppose, however, that we switch from one moral paradigm to another? Such a paradigm shift seems to be written into the question ("is it better"). Is a different moral paradigm the answer or is embracing no moral paradigm and reconnecting with ecology by going beyond reason and beyond "good" and "evil" the only means to "rising above our human-ness?" And is my own last question also self-contradictory in the same way?
 
Kindest Regards, Abogado!

Abogado del Diablo said:
Interesting question juan.

Does the question presuppose, however, that we switch from one moral paradigm to another? Such a paradigm shift seems to be written into the question ("is it better"). Is a different moral paradigm the answer or is embracing no moral paradigm and reconnecting with ecology by going beyond reason and beyond "good" and "evil" the only means to "rising above our human-ness?" And is my own last question also self-contradictory in the same way?
Conceptually, yes. The difference being "which way is up?"
 
Kindest Regards, Vaj!

Vajradhara said:
what "god shaped hole"?
What shape is God?
besides which, though i know that physicists don't like it, the Anthropic Principle would be another method of explaning the how of our physical being.
True Vaj, but yet while I do not in any way presume to speak for Luna, does she not mean the circuit, the connection back to the source? The difference as I see it, is that all of nature, every living thing, is tied back to the source. Different "plugs" maybe, but all life (chi) is tied together, and to the source. Is this not the "web of life?"

Consider the time Jesus cast the devils into the swine.

Or the talking ass that belonged to a prophet in the OT.

Spirit interacts with the whole of nature, down to and including the earth. Stones are alive. :)
 
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