Former atheist, turned deist

Please point one out. I'd love to see someone say that if, "science cannot describe it, then it cannot be real."

Science cannot describe gravity.

They know its effect but not what it actually is.

Science cannot describe gravity... but I think most people would agree that it is real.

So please.... show me one of these "Atheist fundamentalists" that you see so many of.
I believe he is referring to "strong atheists", or "positive atheists," who assert that the statement "There is at least one god" is a false statement. Keyword: assert

(from Merriam-Websters)
Definition of ASSERT

transitive verb
1
: to state or declare positively and often forcefully or aggressively

2
a : to demonstrate the existence of <assert his manhood — James Joyce> b : posit, postulate

the forcefully or aggressively part is often associated with fundamentalism, as can be seen in definition #2 of fundamentalism: (again from Merriam-Websters)

Definition of FUNDAMENTALISM

1
a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs

2
: a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles <Islamic fundamentalism> <political fundamentalism>​

The basic principle being the that the statement "There is at least one god" is false.
 
Agnosticism is the only intellectually honest opinion - a statement of fact atheist fundies care to ignore.

From Wiki:

Types of agnosticism

Agnosticism can be subdivided into several categories. Recently suggested variations include:

Agnostic atheism

Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist.[17]

Agnostic theism

The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.[17]

Apathetic or Pragmatic agnosticism

The view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic.[citation needed][18]

Ignosticism

The view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition is not coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable.[19] A.J. Ayer, Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and agnosticism accept "a deity exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be argued for or against. An ignostic cannot even say whether he/she is a theist or a nontheist until a sufficient definition of theism is put forth.[20][not in citation given]

Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent agnosticism")

The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."

Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal agnosticism")

The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence we can find something out."

Agnosticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, this is basically where I'm at: "Ignosticism

The view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition is not coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable."

I have yet to see a coherent definition of deity be put forward. The best I have seen is the apophatic approach that Thomas suggested to me which defines God in terms of what It is not, but that too requires an acceptance of an initial existential proposition.

God (whatever That may be) is a mystery that belongs in a metaphysical space. So long as it stays in metaphysical space, like a character in a story, it can be super meaningful and perform all sorts of useful functions. The question of literality remains un-begged and unnecessary. I only start to have a problem with God when it's dragged across the hall into the physical sphere. That's when I start needing a coherent definition and theory of what exactly It is and does.

Strictly speaking, though, the physical and metaphysical worlds are always inter-penetrative. The life of mind and hands isn't two separate things. I suppose that the positioning of the fulcrum between the mental and physical worlds is a matter of personal choice based mostly on occupational and philosophical needs.

Chris
 
I believe he is referring to "strong atheists", or "positive atheists,"...

I'll bet he has to walk back his statement one way or another.

Let's see if he settles for one of your descriptions.

Though it seems far from what he described.

It'll be a long walk back.
 
ef·fec·tive·ly

1. In an effective way.
2. For all practical purposes; in effect: Though a few rebels still held out, the fighting was effectively ended.

effectively

1: in an effective manner; "these are real problems that can be dealt with most effectively by rational discussion" [syn: {efficaciously}] [ant: {inefficaciously}, {inefficaciously}]

2: in actuality or reality or fact; "she is effectively his wife"; "in effect, they had no choice" [syn: {in effect}]


I think you need to try again CCS... unless you'd like to say that a horse with a paper towel tube hot-glued to its forehead is "effectively" a unicorn. :rolleyes:

Funny stuff!

"effectively" in this context means that you won't find the specific words, but rather a paraphrase of some sort which "effectively" renders the same rhetorical result.

Don't mess with Grammar Man!
 
Yes atheistic fundies...many are, but more confusing to me is so many are biblical literalists as well, baffling. Tell them Genesis is definitely allegory and metaphor and the rest contains hyperbole and tribal mythology and they blow their stack.

Fundamentalists like using straw men arguments, so I like using straw men to describe them.

Science cannot describe gravity.

I disagree. Science can describe gravity. It just can't define it. You can describe a lot of things that you can't define. Choose your words carefully.

Science cannot describe gravity... but I think most people would agree that it is real.

Reality is subjective. Nothing is real if you can't experience it first. When you do experience it, it becomes real to you.

So please.... show me one of these "Atheist fundamentalists" that you see so many of.

They do exist, at least in theory.

You gotta help me out.

This is the internet. You'd think everything's been said at least once around here.

EDIT: Wow. It took a little work, but I finally got some results. Four to be exact. Sure, I had to reduce my search to "If science can't describe it". But I think I'm getting closer to those Atheist Fundamentalists you were talking about. Check out the bottom screen grab...

Google search string: "if science cannot describe it, then it cannot be real"
Google search string: "if science cannot describe it, then it doesn't exist"
Google search string: "if science cannot describe it, then it isn't real"
Google search string: "if science can't describe it"

Your experiment was deliberately rigged to be misleading.

You put your search string in quotation marks, which means that Google has to find an exact match. What is the chance of someone writing an article with a passage that precisely matches your search string? Very low.

I got between 21 and 91 million results without the quotation marks for the four search strings above.
 
Science can describe gravity. It just can't define it.

Science can describe its effect. But they cannot describe what causes that effect. No one has pointed to X and said "This is the fundamental part of gravity... it is a wave... it is this big... it has this much force."

Reality is subjective. Nothing is real if you can't experience it first. When you do experience it, it becomes real to you.

I think most people accept gravity as real. That's why I used it as my example.

Your experiment was deliberately rigged to be misleading.

You put your search string in quotation marks, which means that Google has to find an exact match. What is the chance of someone writing an article with a passage that precisely matches your search string? Very low.

I would have been happy to find "very low". Instead I found zero.

Brian claimed that there are many AFs out there who hold that belief. And Wil corroborated Brian's notion that there are many out there. If that is the case, then it shouldn't be too hard to find a string of text that matches... unless that string is built on someone's wild imagination, and not reality.

I got between 21 and 91 million results without the quotation marks for the four search strings above.

Yes. Because it finds any match for any of the words in that phrase. Please note the screen grab of results below. (And look. There we are at the top!) Those results demonstrate why I used quotes in my search. They help you find the needle in the haystack without going through 84 million pieces of straw.
 

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You gotta help me out.

This is the internet. You'd think everything's been said at least once around here.

EDIT: Wow. It took a little work, but I finally got some results. Four to be exact. Sure, I had to reduce my search to "If science can't describe it". But I think I'm getting closer to those Atheist Fundamentalists you were talking about. Check out the bottom screen grab...

Here you go:

Naturalism (philosophy) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
So, this is basically where I'm at: "Ignosticism

The view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition is not coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable."

I have yet to see a coherent definition of deity be put forward. The best I have seen is the apophatic approach that Thomas suggested to me which defines God in terms of what It is not, but that too requires an acceptance of an initial existential proposition.

God (whatever That may be) is a mystery that belongs in a metaphysical space. So long as it stays in metaphysical space, like a character in a story, it can be super meaningful and perform all sorts of useful functions. The question of literality remains un-begged and unnecessary. I only start to have a problem with God when it's dragged across the hall into the physical sphere. That's when I start needing a coherent definition and theory of what exactly It is and does.

Strictly speaking, though, the physical and metaphysical worlds are always inter-penetrative. The life of mind and hands isn't two separate things. I suppose that the positioning of the fulcrum between the mental and physical worlds is a matter of personal choice based mostly on occupational and philosophical needs.

Chris

Wow, Chris! Do you have the same problem with gravity? :eek:
 
Here you go:

That doesn't sound very AF to me.

From the link...

Hypotheses based on supernatural forces are commonly viewed as worthless by the scientist because they imply no testable predictions. However, the methodological naturalist is not committed to a denial of God's existence. Possibly God will show up as promised in the Bible or someone will demonstrate the ability to cast a spell. There are no scientific laws that say this is impossible.


That isn't saying "If science can't describe it, then it cannot be real".
 
That doesn't sound very AF to me.

From the link...
Hypotheses based on supernatural forces are commonly viewed as worthless by the scientist because they imply no testable predictions. However, the methodological naturalist is not committed to a denial of God's existence. Possibly God will show up as promised in the Bible or someone will demonstrate the ability to cast a spell. There are no scientific laws that say this is impossible.
That isn't saying "If science can't describe it, then it cannot be real".
Did you miss this part of the link, Citizenzen:

The Oxford English Dictionary defines naturalism as:
2. Philos. The idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world." Natural laws are those we live with daily, e.g., it gets dark at night. Natural laws, arguably, also include the "laws" of modern science, e.g., those describing electrons, black holes, DNA, and the like. In contrast, supernatural laws refer to acts of God, witchcraft, and the like. The strict naturalist believes that there are no supernatural agents or events, i.e., that there are only natural objects and events.
The naturalism that insists that "nature is all there is" is called metaphysical naturalism or ontological naturalism or philosophical naturalism. Ontology is the philosophical study of being and existence.
A related but different form of naturalism is called methodological naturalism.
The methodological naturalism would not be the view held by the Positive Atheists, which I earlier showed to be the fundamentalist atheists Brian was referring to. The first definition of naturalism posits that "only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."

This fits your request.
 
The methodological naturalism would not be the view held by the Positive Atheists, which I earlier showed to be the fundamentalist atheists Brian was referring to.

Nobody has come close to saying "If science can't describe it, then it cannot be real."

So no. It doesn't fit my request.

Your Positive Atheist was simply an atheist. What did he say in that video that qualified him for the label "fundamentalist"? And what are you even trying to describe by the term "fundamentalist"?

Is every Christian a fundamentalist simply because they believe Christ is their savior?

Seems like the kind of category you're trying to shoehorn all atheists into.
 
Nobody has come close to saying "If science can't describe it, then it cannot be real."

So no. It doesn't fit my request.

Your Positive Atheist was simply an atheist. What did he say in that video that qualified him for the label "fundamentalist"? And what are you even trying to describe by the term "fundamentalist"?

Is every Christian a fundamentalist simply because they believe Christ is their savior?

Seems like the kind of category you're trying to shoehorn all atheists into.
Negative and positive atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Positive atheism is a term popularly used to describe the form of atheism that maintains that "There is at least one god" is a false statement.
Negative atheism refers to any other type of non-theism, wherein a person does not believe any deities exist, but does not claim that same statement is false.

I'm sorry if my earlier explanations were not clear to you. I was referring specifically to Positive Atheism as being the fundamental atheists Brian was referring to. Then I showed you the philosphy of naturalism (Scientific Materialism) that they adhere to, and that it fits the definition of fundamentalism. I did not paint all atheists with a broad brush, but was rather specific. On the other hand, you were the one who tried to substitute methodological naturalism for the definition of naturalism.

I'm sorry, but I am not going to admit to your contrived broadbrushing that you are accusing me of. I will point out your attempt to make it appear that I am broadbrushing, and hope you will recognize it as a product of your own mind. :)
Nobody has come close to saying "If science can't describe it, then it cannot be real."
Oh, see post #31 for the definition of naturalism.
 
Nobody has come close to saying "If science can't describe it, then it cannot be real."
Really? I have met that objection so often I've lost count. The weight of scientific knowledge is presented to me as somehow demonstrating God does not exist.

If I argue that God is not an object accessible to empirical determination, I am told that argument is somehow flawed.

Amergin and I have battled on this forum over that very point.

Richard Dawkins has shown himself to be an atheist fundie ... the scientific community has distanced itself from his views, and his methodology, as both are flawed.

Anthony Flew, after revising his view of nature, was accused by atheists as being senile, which seems a pretty fundie kind of response — no-one tacked the point he made, just attacked him for being old.

Flew's deism was based on two things:
One was the view that nature seems too well co-ordinated to be a matter of chance. He was not advocating 'intelligent design' per se, but he was saying there seems to be too much evidence to discount the idea of a Creator.

The other was that the contra argument that things have developed as they have by virtue of the fact that this particular cosmos is just one of an infinite number of cosmoses, and that therefore the 'hand of God' or 'intelligent design' can be put down to random chance, is intellectually bankrupt ... it's the equivalent of saying 'it is, because it is.'

So whilst the voice cry 'senility', I don't see the intellectual insight addressed.

The argument that things are the way they are because we happen to occupy the particular cosmos in which things are this way, seems a weak argument to me.

Especially when I see no evidence of the existence of any other universes.

God bless,

Thomas
 
Really? I have met that objection so often I've lost count.

Yet you can't give me one direct quote.

Curious.


Positive atheism is a term popularly used to describe the form of atheism that maintains that "There is at least one god" is a false statement.

I don't recall that actually being said in the video you linked to.

Could you please point to the time in that video where it is said?
 
Yet you can't give me one direct quote.

Curious.




I don't recall that actually being said in the video you linked to.

Could you please point to the time in that video where it is said?
The video was an example of a self-described positive atheist evangelizing. Nothing more, nothing less. If he is a self-described positive atheist, then one would reasonably assume that he ascribes to the tenants of the belief. (Unless it was someone posing as a self-described positive atheist who really wasn't one. There is always that possibility)

Did you notice in post #21 were I did specify "positive atheism or strong atheism" as being the fundamental atheism Brian was referring to, and demonstrated how its defined beliefs fits into Brian's post.

You seem to be the one positing that adherents to this defined philosophy do not exist. Are you saying that the self-described positive atheist really isn't one?
 
The video was an example of a self-described positive atheist evangelizing.

So by evangelizing you'd include anybody talking about their faith... or lack of faith?

Everybody in this discussion is very determined to paint atheists as "fundamentalists"... "evangelizers"...

It's really quite curious to me. Why the added spin?

I don't refer to every believer as a "fundamentalist" or "evangelizer".

I think it's important to understand the difference.
 
lol, my apologies, Citizenzen. I have found several examples on YouTube of those who describe themselves as "positive atheists" who back down from the defined definition of "positive atheism" right away. :p
 
So by evangelizing you'd include anybody talking about their faith... or lack of faith?

Everybody in this discussion is very determined to paint atheists as "fundamentalists"... "evangelizers"...

It's really quite curious to me. Why the added spin?

lol, no, not all atheists are fundamental atheists, nor do all evangelize. I never posited that was the case. I was quite specific in identifying the defined tenants of "positive atheism" and the defined parameters of the philosophy of naturalism (scientific materialism) as being the "fundamental atheism" to which Brian was referring.

It seems that if you try to pin the self-described followers of "positive atheism" down to the defined tenants of this belief, they will often discount the very defining tenants.

Here is an example of one self-described positive atheist discounting the very defining tenants of positive atheism.

YouTube - Yes I am a positive atheist and here is why
 
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