Former atheist, turned deist

Nobody has come close to saying "If science can't describe it, then it cannot be real."
Science continually can't describe stuff and has denied existence of things only to find out later there was a concern.

Science denied that nutriton had anything to do with heart disease up until 30-40 years ago...and even then they preferred writing presciptions to indicating a change in lifestyle.

Science denied the existence of life force, and meridians and any validity in accupuncture uptil about 20 years ago...once they got studies that showed it reduced back pain, it wasn't long before someone developed tools that tracked meridians and 'discovered' acupuncture points that TCM and 5 element have known for thousands of years.

When science learns and understands what G!d is....will that make any atheist change their mind??
 
Here is an example of one self-described positive atheist discounting the very defining tenants of positive atheism.

Indeed, at approximately 1:40 into the video he says...

I think anybody who would say that they are certain that as a strong atheist against deism or designer, distant far-away gods... it's... that's kind of absurd. That's an irrational belief. You can't say for certain there is no designer... there's no... sort of... creator of the universe.

Thank you for presenting an atheists who is rational in their assessment of what can or can't be known.

While irrationality can be found in all realms of belief and non-belief it shouldn't be presented as common without substantiating that claim with some form of proof... none of which has been presented in this thread yet.
 
There are over-lapping philosophies that I think relate to I, Brian's use of the term fundamentalistic atheism as this detail-rich blog post I found lays out...

And yet, from your link I'd like to point out last paragraph by Thomas W. Clark...


Because naturalists are driven by the quest for reliable knowledge, we are not in the business of defending a particular picture of what finally exists, a particular ontology. If the best, most transparent explanations of a phenomenon, for instance consciousness, should end up in some sort of mental-physical dualism, so be it. If, in our astrophysical explorations, we discover that a race of super-beings created the observable universe, so be it. We are ontological non-dogmatists, letting the ontological chips fall where they may just so long as the theory specifying the ontology is the best one going. We jealously reserve the right to be mistaken in our view of what exists, given that theories often change under pressure from further investigation.


If you follow the link to Clark's full thesis, you'll find things such as...

• Even though an ontological dualism might conceivably surface in our investigation of the world (there is thus far no indication that it necessarily will), the investigation itself militates against the possibility of a root metaphysical divide between the natural and supernatural.

• Note that such naturalism isn’t a philosophical bias imposed on science by naturalists, as some anti-naturalists like to claim,[2] but rather an entailment of the cognitive commitment to science as the basis for reliable beliefs.

Of course the naturalist doesn’t claim to be able to disprove the existence of the supernatural, but lack of disproof is not proof of existence. If it were, one’s ontology would necessarily expand to include all logically conceivable entities, however scant the evidence for them – an unwieldy universe indeed.

• Those wanting clear explanations can’t abide the spurious explanatory completeness that God supplies; such completeness is patently bought by sacrificing understanding, when after all understanding is the whole point! No, naturalists are happy to admit that in some cases – many cases actually, including the origins of existence itself – we don’t understand what’s going on. Far better an honest admission of naturalistic unknowing than a premature claim to knowledge that invokes the supernatural.
.

• If you want a picture of the world more or less as it is, insulated as much as possible from the distorting effects of your own all-too-human psychology, you will stick with science. Not that science is infallible, but it fully recognizes and tries to reduce the influence of wishful thinking when representing reality. Such caution in service to objectivity helps to keep explanations transparent, since only well-evidenced entities and processes get to play a role.


It all sounds pretty open-minded to me.
 
Indeed, at approximately 1:40 into the video he says...
I think anybody who would say that they are certain that as a strong atheist against deism or designer, distant far-away gods... it's... that's kind of absurd. That's an irrational belief. You can't say for certain there is no designer... there's no... sort of... creator of the universe.
Thank you for presenting an atheists who is rational in their assessment of what can or can't be known.

While irrationality can be found in all realms of belief and non-belief it shouldn't be presented as common without substantiating that claim with some form of proof... none of which has been presented in this thread yet.
Indeed. It seems that many atheists are admitting that the claim of the falsity of the statement "there is at least one god" is actually a belief. I have encountered many atheists who wouldn't even admit to that not that long ago (like a few years ago.) There are signs of the discernment between belief and fact, as well. Things are looking up. :)
 
I still find it interesting that atheists are as wanton toward conversion as born again evangelists...

and no comments on my science denying what they couldn't see/prove?
 
Yes. Because it finds any match for any of the words in that phrase. Please note the screen grab of results below. (And look. There we are at the top!) Those results demonstrate why I used quotes in my search. They help you find the needle in the haystack without going through 84 million pieces of straw.

You are only looking for one "unique" needle in the haystack. What about all the other needles that have the qualities that match by analogy the attitude you are describing?

Not everyone describes this attitude by putting the same words in the same order as you are suggesting. Human beings are more creative, imaginative and diverse than that. Not everyone uses "cannot" or "can't" or puts a comma in a particular position. You're trying to catch fish in the wrong part of the ocean!

A quartic equation has four roots. Doing the Google search you suggested is like finding only one of those roots. What about the other three roots?

Seems like the kind of category you're trying to shoehorn all atheists into.

Everybody in this discussion is very determined to paint atheists as "fundamentalists"... "evangelizers"...

Everybody? Really? Everybody in this discussion? Including you?:D

I thought the point of having a term like "fundamentalist atheist" was to refer to those atheists who were fundamentalists, not to describe them all as fundamentalists.

Why do I sometimes talk about so-called "fundamentalist Christians?" It's to distinguish the Fundies from those who aren't (I am Christian myself BTW, just not a Fundie).

Some so-called "atheists" can be quite pushy. A term like "fundamentalist atheist" is supposed to distinguish the polite and nice ones from the abrasive and aggressive ones.

Not all atheists who express "atheist views" are ones I consider "fundies." Many of them are mild. Can I fault people for just speaking their mind? The fundies, however can be quite critical to the point of putting down adherents of various religions, like for example, saying that these adherents worship a "psychopathic God" or that their God practices child abuse. These are extreme examples and people may still be offended by less extreme cases but I am talking about the deeper end of the spectrum.
 
CZ,

Speaking of the Google searches you suggested, here is one interesting page I found in the results.

Arrogance and scientific rules of thumb | Energy Bulletin

After reading the article, I wonder if the laws of thermodynamics can be applied to human opinions?

I found Rule #4 particularly interesting, where it refers to the Second Law, that things tend toward chaos and disorder.

Do all atheists necessarily have the same views? If all atheists have the same view, this could be seen as a high level of order. If they tend to have different views, it could be seen as a high level of chaos.

While I did study some physics at university level (only first year), I didn't study thermodynamics.

Suppose there are two rooms, one filled with atheists and another filled with Christians. All atheists and all Christians initially start off with exactly the same views. A door connecting the two rooms is opened and the two groups start talking.

Differences in opinion can be seen as potential energy. Large differences in opinion between two individuals are more likely to cause changes in opinion than small differences. Some of the atheists and Christians will change their opinion during the interaction. Order will decrease and chaos will increase as each individual develops his/her own unique views. Entropy (chaos or amount of non-convertible energy) increases.

Does this fit the social processes happening in the human race right now? Every atheist and Christian will start off with the same simplistic and naive view of the other, but as they start talking, the entropy of the entire system increases.

Not all atheists and Christians are likely to be the same because as each person seeks their own individuality and starts to dislike the idea of conforming to their own group/tribe and developing sympathies with the other, each becomes less like a copy of a straw man and more unique individually. The desire to evolve and be different will keep us from copying each other.

Some will conform, but others will be disgusted by that conformity and rebel. Naturally, not everybody will ever be the same, no matter what you try to do inside the system.

If you are outside the system, you can "play God" and force everyone to have the same opinion, but eventually people will rebel anyway so it's an exercise in futility.
 
And yet, from your link I'd like to point out last paragraph by Thomas W. Clark...

Because naturalists are driven by the quest for reliable knowledge, we are not in the business of defending a particular picture of what finally exists, a particular ontology. If the best, most transparent explanations of a phenomenon, for instance consciousness, should end up in some sort of mental-physical dualism, so be it. If, in our astrophysical explorations, we discover that a race of super-beings created the observable universe, so be it. We are ontological non-dogmatists, letting the ontological chips fall where they may just so long as the theory specifying the ontology is the best one going. We jealously reserve the right to be mistaken in our view of what exists, given that theories often change under pressure from further investigation.
If you follow the link to Clark's full thesis, you'll find things such as...
• Even though an ontological dualism might conceivably surface in our investigation of the world (there is thus far no indication that it necessarily will), the investigation itself militates against the possibility of a root metaphysical divide between the natural and supernatural.
• Note that such naturalism isn’t a philosophical bias imposed on science by naturalists, as some anti-naturalists like to claim,[2] but rather an entailment of the cognitive commitment to science as the basis for reliable beliefs.
Of course the naturalist doesn’t claim to be able to disprove the existence of the supernatural, but lack of disproof is not proof of existence. If it were, one’s ontology would necessarily expand to include all logically conceivable entities, however scant the evidence for them – an unwieldy universe indeed.
• Those wanting clear explanations can’t abide the spurious explanatory completeness that God supplies; such completeness is patently bought by sacrificing understanding, when after all understanding is the whole point! No, naturalists are happy to admit that in some cases – many cases actually, including the origins of existence itself – we don’t understand what’s going on. Far better an honest admission of naturalistic unknowing than a premature claim to knowledge that invokes the supernatural.
.
• If you want a picture of the world more or less as it is, insulated as much as possible from the distorting effects of your own all-too-human psychology, you will stick with science. Not that science is infallible, but it fully recognizes and tries to reduce the influence of wishful thinking when representing reality. Such caution in service to objectivity helps to keep explanations transparent, since only well-evidenced entities and processes get to play a role.
It all sounds pretty open-minded to me.
CZ, my intent was not to debate the implied philosophies but merely to point out certain attitudinal stances. I know nothing of either the blogger or the guy he was ripping. But, if you're intent was to imply that there aren't atheists out there whose attitudes are until science confrims a phenomenon I'm not going to consider the possibility it exists, then you're being intentional dense.;) earl
 
You are only looking for one "unique" needle in the haystack... Not everyone describes this attitude by putting the same words in the same order as you are suggesting.

Yes. I think I understand how quotes function in a Google search. I never said that my search technique was the only method one should use. I did in fact ask others to help me find these "Atheist fundamentalists" that Brian spoke of, but I didn't tell you what method you should employ. I simply showed you what method I used.

Regardless of method, I can't help but notice that nobody has yet produced an example like the one Brian described. In fact, any attempts to produce examples that fit Brians description, like Earl's post, proved just the opposite. It's very difficult to paint someone as a fundamentalist when they say, "...we are not in the business of defending a particular picture of what finally exists..." Can you imagine a Christian fundamentalist saying "I'm not in the business of defending Christ as my savior... or God as the creator"?

I'm not saying that Atheists Fundamentalists don't exist and I'm frankly baffled why dozens of examples haven't been produced already. What I am saying is that it shouldn't be put forth as the norm. Fundamentalists are irrational, whether believer or non-believer. But it is also irrational to imply that those on the margins represent the whole. I know that Brian and Wil didn't specifically say that, but I was determined to head them off before they had a chance.


When science learns and understands what G!d is....will that make any atheist change their mind??

I already quoted an example from Earl's linked article that covers that very question...

We are ontological non-dogmatists, letting the ontological chips fall where they may just so long as the theory specifying the ontology is the best one going. We jealously reserve the right to be mistaken in our view of what exists, given that theories often change under pressure from further investigation.


CZ, my intent was not to debate the implied philosophies but merely to point out certain attitudinal stances.

Earl, if your point was to clearly illustrate the open-mindedness of the writer in question, then I'd say you did a marvelous job.
 
Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum, my name is Keith. Well I guess I'm just looking for some advice.

I regarded myself as an atheist for about 9 years and now after all of that time I find myself believing in God. I accept that the big bang is the event which allowed the universe to be, but science has no answers to what may have caused it. I think such an event like that would need a cause, and I believe some sort of higher being or God is the cause of this.

I consider myself as a deist, like many deists I don't believe God interferes with the affairs of humanity and is merely responsible for getting the ball rolling in the creation of the universe. I'm also non-religious as I don't agree with organized religion.

But I've been getting a lot of slack form other atheists online about me, converting to deism (so to speak). I'm not sure how I go about explaining to them why I no longer deny the existence of a God. Many of them say I'm using an "argument from ignorance" or use the argument of "god of the gaps".

Any advice on how to explain this to them? So maybe they can understand it on some level, while obviously not sharing my beliefs.
Open mind...that is a wonderful change of scenery.

1. You cannot convert anyone, so don't bother trying.

2. All you can do is explain how you see things (they might not accept it). And then let it go...(what is personal to you, is for you).

3. Seek out other "Diests" in various versions, to find what you think you have discovered.

4. Distance yourself from those that say there is nothing...

there is nothing absolute in this life...get it? But "Life" IS absolute. (I know, a play on words, but so is life) :p In any event, Welcome to IO.

v/r

Q
 
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i thnk my only advice to you is to get personal with God. Just get somewhere, it could be while you are outside alone walking, inside alone at your computer.... and just ask out loud... " Hey God, what do yo want to show me..... what do you want me to do?...etc.. (whatever question you might have)." See what happens... it cant hurt!

Love the Grey
 
i thnk my only advice to you is to get personal with God.

I'm sorry...

Get personal with what?

How does one differentiate between the outside and God?

Or do you just mean to get personal with the outside?
 
i thnk my only advice to you is to get personal with God. Just get somewhere, it could be while you are outside alone walking, inside alone at your computer.... and just ask out loud... " Hey God, what do yo want to show me..... what do you want me to do?...etc.. (whatever question you might have)." See what happens... it cant hurt!

Love the Grey

But... this requires some sort of preconception of God as a personality that can "speak" to you inside your head. My observation is that these other voices sound very much like another "me." Who puts the words in "the God inside my head"'s mouth? Seems quite schizophrenic and self-serving.

Chris
 
But... this requires some sort of preconception of God as a personality that can "speak" to you inside your head. My observation is that these other voices sound very much like another "me." Who puts the words in "the God inside my head"'s mouth? Seems quite schizophrenic and self-serving.

Chris
Genesis 1:26...God does...
 
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