China Cat Sunflower
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Former atheist, turned deist
- Thread starter keithzworld
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China Cat Sunflower
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There's something that's always bugged me about theistic apologetics. It's the idea that since one cannot know for certain, belief and disbelief have the same intellectual value, so why not choose belief? It's like saying that since I don't know for sure that holding a banana to my ear won't keep the alligators off Sesame Street, why not do it just in case? (Pascal's wager) Or, SG, since I don't know exactly how gravity works, why not nail my foot to the floor just in case? Extrapolating to the deist position, why not keep a banana and a nail handy 'cuz you never know. This doesn't seem like an intellectually honest position to me. I can't just believe in something because I want to, and kowtowing to superstition just in case isn't conducive to freethinking. OTOH, I don't like the dirty feeling I get from throwing in with the anti crowd just to have a political identity, so I guess I'm stuck in the no-man's-land of just saying "I don't know."
Chris
Chris
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
It's not like that for me. The more closely I examine just about anything, the more freaking miraculous everything appears. You can gloss all this miraculousness over and call it all mundane, but is that really honest?
China Cat Sunflower
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No. There is always the innate fear of the miraculous. Labeling it doesn't help, though.
Chris
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Innate fear of the miraculous? I don't understand. You don't notice this supposed fear among babies, which would suggest its supposed "innateness."
tychomorpheus
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does affiliation really help one's effort for understanding the superior sense of life, or enlightenment?
do we somehow evolve by affiliating to a group such as the ones enlisted above?
or do we only affiliate because of promises we're being sold on?
An hunch based list:
affiliation - promise
___________________________
atheism - courage
agnosticism - respect
christianity - heaven
pantheism - harmony
zen - enlightenment
budhism - choice
hindu - escape
and so on
Hi Chris —
For kids, everything is wonderful, everything is miraculous, everything is real; the left hemisphere has not yet learned to discriminate ... it's having a feeding frenzy, and loving every minute of it.
It's also a reference to your prior comment about 'voices' and schizophrenia.
The right hemisphere sees everything at once, the left focusses and discriminates, both in unison are required ... but we can already see the left hemisphere offers a commentary on what the right hemisphere apprehends and delivers to it for analysis (again, these are very general terms, but none the less they apply), the right then absorbs the findings of the left.
Schizophrenia is when the left hemisphere begins its own commentary, ignoring the input from the right, and soon sees this input as something other, alien, and untrustworthy ... all empahy and social engagement is lost ... and this commentary is interpreted as 'voices'.
For the sage, the prophet, the seer, these 'voices' are actually inuitions, they're not the fruit of internal commentary, but the surfacing of a kind of dialogue in the conscious mind, especially minds that have been left-hemisphere language-oriented (analysis and representation) as ours have for the last millennia or so ... this dialogue takes place below and prior to language — it's the language of 'knowing without understanding'.
Many commentators are noting that 'Western civilisation' is showing deep and troubling schizophrenic tendencies at the cultural level — and American culture leads the field (the need for peer recognition, and for closure, are two such signs).
The longer it goes on, the more disengaged from nature and the real, the more we retreat into the mental landscape where we try and make the ever-changing moment fixed and manageable.
Life is dynamic. Nothing is fixed. The river is the river, but it's never the same from one moment to the next, it's constant flux and change ... and we stand on the bank, effectively want to stop the water, contain it, quantify it, analyse it, prove it, test it ... we want to abstract it, reduce it to a clear-cut concept ...
... meanwhile, life flows by ...
God bless,
Thomas
Apprehension of the miraculous, empathy, intuition ... are all right hemisphere activities. Analysing and representing what is experienced (actually re-presenting) is left hemisphere broadly speaking, as the whole mind (and indeed body) is engaged in the process.
For kids, everything is wonderful, everything is miraculous, everything is real; the left hemisphere has not yet learned to discriminate ... it's having a feeding frenzy, and loving every minute of it.
It's also a reference to your prior comment about 'voices' and schizophrenia.
The right hemisphere sees everything at once, the left focusses and discriminates, both in unison are required ... but we can already see the left hemisphere offers a commentary on what the right hemisphere apprehends and delivers to it for analysis (again, these are very general terms, but none the less they apply), the right then absorbs the findings of the left.
Schizophrenia is when the left hemisphere begins its own commentary, ignoring the input from the right, and soon sees this input as something other, alien, and untrustworthy ... all empahy and social engagement is lost ... and this commentary is interpreted as 'voices'.
For the sage, the prophet, the seer, these 'voices' are actually inuitions, they're not the fruit of internal commentary, but the surfacing of a kind of dialogue in the conscious mind, especially minds that have been left-hemisphere language-oriented (analysis and representation) as ours have for the last millennia or so ... this dialogue takes place below and prior to language — it's the language of 'knowing without understanding'.
Many commentators are noting that 'Western civilisation' is showing deep and troubling schizophrenic tendencies at the cultural level — and American culture leads the field (the need for peer recognition, and for closure, are two such signs).
The longer it goes on, the more disengaged from nature and the real, the more we retreat into the mental landscape where we try and make the ever-changing moment fixed and manageable.
Life is dynamic. Nothing is fixed. The river is the river, but it's never the same from one moment to the next, it's constant flux and change ... and we stand on the bank, effectively want to stop the water, contain it, quantify it, analyse it, prove it, test it ... we want to abstract it, reduce it to a clear-cut concept ...
... meanwhile, life flows by ...
God bless,
Thomas
Would you call that a scientific method? It sounds like you don't believe the knowledge from experiment, experience, or education has too much bearing on wisdom.And that wisdom that you gained from mindless meditation... did you say "I will become wise now," and have it pop into your head at your command?
I've always found that wisdom can't be commanded, but comes when it comes... on its own accord.
Your results may vary.
Reminds me of the phrase: "Wisdom was justified from all her children."
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
I treated it like a scientific method--kept notes and such--and did mindfulness meditation for observations. (Not the easiest thing to do under the influence of hormones!)
That is what it sounded like. I would say you are taking command, and I imagine some form of knowledge or wisdom comes from it. I'd have to look in awe at the child that takes themselves to the timeout chair to look deeper into things. Perhaps you may be setting an example at home?!
Thomas:
The longer it goes on, the more disengaged from nature and the real, the more we retreat into the mental landscape where we try and make the ever-changing moment fixed and manageable.
Life is dynamic. Nothing is fixed. The river is the river, but it's never the same from one moment to the next, it's constant flux and change ...
...otherwise called dukkha and anicca
Is this coming from that book you've been enthusing about?
s.
The longer it goes on, the more disengaged from nature and the real, the more we retreat into the mental landscape where we try and make the ever-changing moment fixed and manageable.
Life is dynamic. Nothing is fixed. The river is the river, but it's never the same from one moment to the next, it's constant flux and change ...
...otherwise called dukkha and anicca
Is this coming from that book you've been enthusing about?
s.
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I don't believe I said that at all.
I believe that my point was that maturation... ripening... is not something one wills into existence, but something that comes naturally, in it's own time.
Now I would agree that some aspects of behavior can facilitate that transformation. But I don't think it's something you can simply arrive at by force of will.
For instance, why aren't you (pardon me if I assume incorrectly) a fully enlightened being? Why can't you simply will yourself into a state of enlightenment or grace?
That sounds like an interesting choice. What do you mean by maturation or ripening, as it relates to a person, but compares to a rotting apple?
Did you say you chose to not have kids? I can't imagine meditating under the tree, waiting to have children. I suggest that is one transformation that takes at least a little bit of effort.
Fully enlightened? You think it possible? Should we want to? Whose grace do you think we should seek?
citizenzen
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Who said the apple was rotting? Why not young, puckery and tart? Why not perfectly ripe and sweet?
The Buddha was enlightened, as are many who've practiced my religion, Buddhism. My teacher once said, "progress doesn't happen at an even, steady pace. Sometimes the dharma seems to sweep you off your feet and carries you along. Sometimes it seems like you're never going to move ahead."
I never heard her say, "just will it, and make it happen."
Moments of self-realization don't happen by force of will. Good practice may set the stage for moments of insight and allow you to understand and make the most of them, but they come and go according to their schedule, almost always taking you by surprise.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
True. Were we talking about grace, or about free-will? Even if we are blessed with grace, we are always free to reject it, and go back to our unenlightened ways.
Why not rotting so that it nourishes the seeds to make a new tree? Are you suggesting aborting the offspring?
Sweet... a teacher willing to raise students. That had to have been fruitful for the Buddha... so back to the apple: apple's willful choice to plant the seeds?
Yes, I find venturing into new things is full of surprises. Now, you say 'by force': do you mean aborting the apple's seeds against the apple's free will? Having children against a mate's free will? Waiting for something to forcefully bring you enlightenment against your free will?
I was responding to your posts because you compared a person and an apple indirectly. From my perspective, enlightened or not, there appears to be a difference or two between a person and an apple. Would you agree?
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I use the term "grace" (perhaps incorrectly) because I know that for some people "enlightenment" may not be appropriate. By grace I mean a form of divine grace... a connection with God's wisdom and benevolence.
IMO, The saying "knock and the door will open" doesn't mean the knocking itself opens the door... it means that when that door finally does open you aren't at the local tavern downing another beer. You can pound on that door all you'd like, but it will open when it opens. At least if you're still knocking, you're more likely to notice when it does.
But maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this matter. It certainly doesn't need to be beaten into the ground.
Maybe... just a little.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
agree to disagree? lol, I agree with your opinion. (funny how we both use the term 'grace')
Does maturation... ripening... enlightenment... wisdom... grace... require knocking on a door? If a person does not willfully knock, do you think the door still naturally opens for them?
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I think it goes hand-in-hand.
The closer we get, the more we knock, trying to break down that last barrier between "it" and ourselves.