Assignment: "Freewill" (Pro/Con)

PS

Sorry if I'm not playing by the rules,

think of it as an example of free will at work!!!

s.
 
OK, I think it is safe to say that we have determined:
  • We are not always ultimately driven by our desires.
  • The strongest desire does not always win out.
  • We are free to make mistakes and learn from them, but have mechanizisms built in to help us to keep from harming ourselves too much by certain actions
  • We can use what we have learned to help us overcome harmful desires or embrace helpful desires, or become indifferent to either
  • Through our mental processes, we can choose which desires to embrace and which to resist, regardless of the relative strength of said desires. However, we have no guarantee of success
 
OAT said:
Assumption: Freewill exists because one can make random choices.

Imagine that you are asked to choose between a red paper and a green paper. Assume that as far as you are aware, you have no preference whatsoever between a red paper and a green paper. The choice that you make as far as you are concerned is random. Therefore you have made a choice free of any forces. Therefore you have freewill.

How would you argue against this?
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I, like most people I believe, am only aware of one universe. I can make no comparisons.

Whatever I do (choose the red, choose the green, choose neither, choose both, eat one and set fire to the other, jump up and run off screaming...) it does not prove free will, nor prove the absence of free will (proving a negative???)...

It only shows, after the event, what I did (eg chose the red). It is no proof in respect of "free will", one way or another. Of course if there were other, identical universes to access perceptually to see if the same choices are made there and what happens afterwards...we could be onto something.

But so far that sort of fiddling only happens in films...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120148/

(a good film too!)



s.
 
Snoopy said:
I know what you’re saying GK, but I do not think it is possible to not utilise outside sources as you put it. We are each a part of this universe, always have been and always will. So how do I separate my “self” (not utilising “outside” sources) from every moment of my life’s experience so far as part of this universe? More simply, how do I remove my past influences and gained “knowledge” from my thinking (and hence, speech)?
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What I mean by outside sources is using other peoples minds and arguments to defend your personal convictions. I want your personal thoughts, your personal convictions, and your personal reasons for your particular stance (Pro or Con). This is not only meant to help me think critically for myself, but also everyone else participating in this "assignment".

If we continually stand only on the shoulders of the great thinkers of times past, and never venture out on our own, then will we ever move beyond their influence? Will we ever grow past what they themselves discovered - about themselves or about life itself? If you have already been influenced by an outside source, then please utilize that part of 'you' in this discussion. I simply want to hear your convictions in your words, through your unique lens, ya know?

GK
 
Gatekeeper said:

“Freewill is essentially defined as being able to make choices not determined by prior causes, or is the ability to make a choice free of external and/or other physical forces.”
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OK then.

So first off there needs to be an agreed definition of the topic, or as the starter of the discussion you can determine the definition.

Is this the definition then?

If it is, as I intimated, based on such a hard determinist outlook free will is an illusion IMO. On this definition the answer is contained in the definition, it precludes the possibility of free will.

s.
 
seattlegal said:
OK, I think it is safe to say that we have determined:
  • We are not always ultimately driven by our desires.
  • The strongest desire does not always win out.
  • We are free to make mistakes and learn from them, but have mechanizisms built in to help us to keep from harming ourselves too much by certain actions
  • We can use what we have learned to help us overcome harmful desires or embrace helpful desires, or become indifferent to either
  • Through our mental processes, we can choose which desires to embrace and which to resist, regardless of the relative strength of said desires. However, we have no guarantee of success
Click to expand...


  1. If we are not driven by our desires, then what drives our decisions as it relates to freewill choice? Also, can you make a case against our mental process and reflexive reaction being quicker than our conscious thought?
  2. Our strongest desire will always win out when we are able to effectively utilize intended choice. Otherwise it would be considered a mistake which has nothing to do with freewill.
  3. We are able to learn from our mistakes and those mechanisms, such as our ability to feel pain play on our desires; they help us learn from our misguided actions.
  4. We have no willful control over our desires, but our life circumstances do determine what we desire most in any given situation.
  5. Our mental processes are simply one factor when it comes to our desires; we have no control over these processes. They are determined by our circumstances.
 
Snoopy said:
OK then.

So first off there needs to be an agreed definition of the topic, or as the starter of the discussion you can determine the definition.

Is this the definition then?

If it is, as I intimated, based on such a hard determinist outlook free will is an illusion IMO. On this definition the answer is contained in the definition, it precludes the possibility of free will.

s.
Click to expand...

We could use a more simplistic definition if you like, such as one's ability to make voluntary choices, or done of one's own accord; voluntary.

Is this agreeable?
 
Gatekeeper said:
We could use a more simplistic definition if you like, such as one's ability to make voluntary choices, or done of one's own accord; voluntary.

Is this agreeable?
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Oh well now you've outed me as a Pro.

But "proof"?

I'm an agnostic. :)

s.
 
Snoopy said:
or Free Won't ? ;)

Who's in Charge? » American Scientist

s.
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Nice, so what are you trying to demonstrate with this post, that you are free to post what you like in attempt demonstrate freewill choice? May I ask what moved you to make this decision, and why you think it helps your case in light of my original post, or even the more simplistic definition of freewill I provided?
 
Gatekeeper said:
  1. If we are not driven by our desires, then what drives our decisions as it relates to freewill choice? Also, can you make a case against our mental process and reflexive reaction being quicker than our conscious thought?
  2. Our strongest desire will always win out when we are able to effectively utilize intended choice. Otherwise it would be considered a mistake which has nothing to do with freewill.
  3. We are able to learn from our mistakes and those mechanisms, such as our ability to feel pain play on our desires; they help us learn from our misguided actions.
  4. We have no willful control over our desires, but our life circumstances do determine what we desire most in any given situation.
  5. Our mental processes are simply one factor when it comes to our desires; we have no control over these processes. They are determined by our circumstances.
Click to expand...
Desire is "craving or want." We have power to strengthen or weaken desires, and choose which ones to strengthen or weaken, which ones to act on, and which ones not to act on. Therefore strength of desire can be controlled by the individual, dependant upon the skill of the individual, the will-power of the individual, and whatever outside help and support is accepted or rejected by said individual. So, we can have willful influence over our desires, if not outright control.

If you say we have no willfull control over our thought processes, I would show you copies of eeg's showing people willfully producing alpha waves, beta waves, etc., if such evidence were permissible under this controlled exercise. :p
 
Gatekeeper said:
Nice, so what are you trying to demonstrate with this post,
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Just thought I'd throw in the neurophysiological aspect, as it's current and relevant.

that you are free to post what you like in attempt demonstrate freewill choice?
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It wasn't meant as a demonstration of free will; it was just meant as, uh, a contribution, like what you've asked for!:p:eek:


May I ask what moved you to make this decision,
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It just popped into my mind cos I've heard about Libet's work of late. Can't be more specific than that.


and why you think it helps your case in light of my original post, or even the more simplistic definition of freewill I provided?
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I don't think it helps my "case." It was just to throw in the mix should anyone care to run with it, probably sg if I know that little minx. ;)

Although I may be a Pro, I don't feel the need to defend or promote. It's not something I'm attached to emotionally.

s.
 
seattlegal said:
Desire is "craving or want." We have power to strengthen or weaken desires, and choose which ones to strengthen or weaken, which ones to act on, and which ones not to act on. Therefore strength of desire can be controlled by the individual, dependant upon the skill of the individual, the will-power of the individual, and whatever outside help and support is accepted or rejected by said individual. So, we can have willful influence over our desires, if not outright control.

If you say we have no willfull control over our thought processes, I would show you copies of eeg's showing people willfully producing alpha waves, beta waves, etc., if such evidence were permissible under this controlled exercise. :p
Click to expand...

Voluntary willful control over our thought processes and having internal and/or external influences playing on our desires, and therefore changing our thought processes are two different things. Desire must come before any conscious choice is made choice, and before desire there must be underlying influences that determine our desires, whether internal or external. It begins with a simple influential factor, and then that influential factor plays on our desires or on what we want most, and then the desire itself leads us to make the choices we make.
 
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