Assignment: "Freewill" (Pro/Con)

[seattlegal]

Also, we are coerced by life circumstance, not by our desires. How can we be coerced by a want?

Your argument is structured in such a way that our choices are coerced by our desires. Realizing and asking how we can be coerced by a want is the first step in overcoming our desires/cravings.

Life itself (Existence/reality) is what forces, manipulates, and/or shapes our desires. We simply choose our course of action after a desire has been established.

From Snoopy's link:

the experimental data of Benjamin Libet(now professor emeritus of physiology at University of California, Davis), which show that the neural activity that begins an action starts up around a third of a second before the agent's conscious decision to act. Neuroscientists have frequently interpreted this as showing that decisions are somehow illusions: Consciousness is "out of the loop." They maintain that the action is originally precipitated in some part of the brain, and off fly the signals to muscles, pausing en route to tell you, the conscious agent, what is going on (but like all good officials letting you, the bumbling president, maintain the illusion that you started it all)

This would suggest that the brain is not the seat of our agency!

 

[Gatekeeper]

I don't agree that we are ultimately driven by our desires. I know you asked for no outside sources, but I'm gonna quote Plato and Aristotle's opinions here for more perspectives:

"Human behavior flows from three main sources: desire, emotion, and knowledge”--Plato
“All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion and desire.”--Aristotle​

We are speaking of freewill choice, and how our desires ultimately determine what we choose. Human action and human behavior certainly stem from desire, knowledge, and emotion, but the underlying determinant of our choices is a desire to choose "something". Whether chance plays a role, or nature, or compulsion, or habit, or reason, or passion, we are still choosing to act because we desire to act.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Your argument is structured in such a way that our choices are coerced by our desires. Realizing and asking how we can be coerced by a want is the first step in overcoming our desires/cravings.

Our conscious choices are determined by our desires plain and simple. There is no need to make it anything other than what it is.

This would suggest that the brain is not the seat of our agency!

What exactly is your point, seattlegal?

 

[Gatekeeper]

Your argument is structured in such a way that our choices are coerced by our desires. Realizing and asking how we can be coerced by a want is the first step in overcoming our desires/cravings

Overcoming desires/cravings? It can certainly be done, but other factors are at play. For one, your desire to overcome your desires/cravings is what determines your course of action.

 

[seattlegal]

Our conscious choices are determined by our desires plain and simple. There is no need to make it anything other than what it is.




What exactly is your point, seattlegal?

We simply choose our course of action after a desire has been established.

The portion of the article I quoted says that our actions begins before the brain shows signs making the conscious decision to do it!

the experimental data of Benjamin Libet(now professor emeritus of physiology at University of California, Davis), which show that the neural activity that begins an action starts up around a third of a second before the agent's conscious decision to act. Neuroscientists have frequently interpreted this as showing that decisions are somehow illusions: Consciousness is "out of the loop." They maintain that the action is originally precipitated in some part of the brain, and off fly the signals to muscles, pausing en route to tell you, the conscious agent, what is going on (but like all good officials letting you, the bumbling president, maintain the illusion that you started it all)
​

 

[OAT]

The portion of the article I quoted says that our actions begins before the brain shows signs making the conscious decision to do it!

the experimental data of Benjamin Libet(now professor emeritus of physiology at University of California, Davis), which show that the neural activity that begins an action starts up around a third of a second before the agent's conscious decision to act. Neuroscientists have frequently interpreted this as showing that decisions are somehow illusions: Consciousness is "out of the loop." They maintain that the action is originally precipitated in some part of the brain, and off fly the signals to muscles, pausing en route to tell you, the conscious agent, what is going on (but like all good officials letting you, the bumbling president, maintain the illusion that you started it all)
​

How would this argue for pro freewill since something is "forcing" a certain action before an actual conscious intention/will?

 

[seattlegal]

OK, here is something that will make things clearer:

From dictionary.com

de·sire
–verb (used with object)
1. to wish or long for; crave; want.
2. to express a wish to obtain; ask for; request: The mayor desires your presence at the next meeting.
–noun
3. a longing or craving, as for something that brings satisfaction or enjoyment: a desire for fame.
4. an expressed wish; request.
5. something desired.
6. sexual appetite or a sexual urge.
----------------
de·cide
the act or process of deciding; determination, as of a question or doubt, by making a judgment: They must make a decision between these two contestants.
2. the act of or need for making up one's mind: This is a difficult decision.
3. something that is decided; resolution: He made a poor decision.
4. a judgment, as one formally pronounced by a court.
de·cide
–verb (used with object)
1. to solve or conclude (a question, controversy, or struggle) by giving victory to one side: The judge decided the case in favor of the plaintiff.
2. to determine or settle (something in dispute or doubt): to decide an argument.
3. to bring (a person) to a decision; persuade or convince: The new evidence decided him.
–verb (used without object)
4. to settle something in dispute or doubt: The judge decided in favor of the plaintiff.
5. to make a judgment or determine a preference; come to a conclusion.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------​

Decision involves a judgement, whereas desire is simply a craving. If it was simply a struggle between the strongest desires, there would be no need for a judgement.

This area of making a judgement is where free-will comes in, perhaps?

from etymonline.com

intelligence late 14c., "faculty of understanding," from O.Fr. intelligence (12c.), from L. intelligentia "understanding," from intelligentem (nom. intelligens) "discerning," prp. of intelligere "to understand, comprehend," from inter- "between" + legere "choose, pick out, read" (see lecture).​

Hmm, intelligent choices.....are desires intelligent?

 

[seattlegal]

How would this argue for pro freewill since something is "forcing" a certain action before an actual conscious intention/will?

I'm suggesting that this evidence shows that the brain is not the actual seat of our agency! If it is not in the brain, it must be elsewhere!

Gatekeeper asked that we look at all sides, which is what I am doing!

 

[Gatekeeper]

The portion of the article I quoted says that our actions begins before the brain shows signs making the conscious decision to do it!

the experimental data of Benjamin Libet(now professor emeritus of physiology at University of California, Davis), which show that the neural activity that begins an action starts up around a third of a second before the agent's conscious decision to act. Neuroscientists have frequently interpreted this as showing that decisions are somehow illusions: Consciousness is "out of the loop." They maintain that the action is originally precipitated in some part of the brain, and off fly the signals to muscles, pausing en route to tell you, the conscious agent, what is going on (but like all good officials letting you, the bumbling president, maintain the illusion that you started it all)
​

O.k. lets say our mental process is influenced by touching a hot pan, which starts the entire process. Our brain activity is quicker than our conscious thought, but the action is driven by what our brain desires, whether we are yet conscious of that desire or not. The entire text you quoted is a Con argument against freewill choice, and it pretty much validates my previous thoughts.



(but like all good officials letting you, the bumbling president, maintain the illusion that you started it all)

 

[Gatekeeper]

I'm suggesting that this evidence shows that the brain is not the actual seat of our agency! If it is not in the brain, it must be elsewhere!

"neural activity"

 

[seattlegal]

O.k. lets say our mental process is influenced by touching a hot pan, which starts the entire process. Our brain activity is quicker than our conscious thought, but the action is driven by what our brain desires, whether we are yet conscious of that desire or not. The entire text you quoted is a Con argument against freewill choice, and it pretty much validates my previous thoughts.



(but like all good officials letting you, the bumbling president, maintain the illusion that you started it all)

Then who makes the judgement that leads to the choice?

 

[Gatekeeper]

Then who makes the judgement that leads to the choice?

The choice is made by our (Brain) which must first be influenced by something else, some other internal or external force. Our actions are not voluntary, however, they are driven/motivated/determined by many factors.

Say a signal is sent to the brain, the brain then begins to act in its appointed manner, sending out signals to the rest of the body until it finally becomes a conscious desire.

The entire point is that our desires are a product of life circumstance; life circumstance determines our desires, and although our brain activity is quicker than conscious thought, the end result is the same (A conscious desire) on which we act.

 

[seattlegal]

Our conscious choices are determined by our desires plain and simple. There is no need to make it anything other than what it is.

Yes there is, because I do not see this as the reality. Many have presented evidence on this thread that this is not the case. If you want to close your eyes to it, and detatch yourself from reality, that is your choice! {pun intended}

 

[Gatekeeper]

Yes there is, because I do not see this as the reality. Many have presented evidence on this thread that this is not the case. If you want to close your eyes to it, and detatch yourself from reality, that is your choice! {pun intended}

Evidence (?) I simply haven't seen any compelling evidence to suggest that our "conscious" choices are not motivated and/or driven by our desires. Nothing thus far presented suggests that desire does not drive such choices.

There has been some evidence presented that freewill choice is a myth, however, and posted by you in an attempt to prove that our conscious decisions are NOT ultimately driven by desire.

Lets not do the whole ad hom thing, o.k? Pretty please? You are also using strawman arguments that do nothing to support your Pro stance. Why not make a case for your position instead resorting to ad homs and straw man tactics?

May I ask you something? Do you truly think I'm detached from reality and that my eyes are closed?

"The entire point is that our desires are a product of life circumstance; life circumstance determines our desires, and although our brain activity is quicker than conscious thought, the end result is the same (A conscious desire) on which we ultimately act. "


GK

 

[seattlegal]

Evidence (?) I simply haven't seen any compelling evidence to suggest that our "conscious" choices are not motivated and/or driven by our desires. Nothing thus far presented suggests that desire does not drive such choices.

Once would hope that our conscious choices are driven by intellect, rather than cravings. We would never progress, otherwise.

There has been some evidence presented that freewill choice is a myth, however, and posted by you in an attempt to prove that our conscious decisions are NOT ultimately driven by desire.

You asked that we look at all sides. Desires do not soley make the judgement that leads to choice. You yourself mentioned circumstance, etc. Others have mentioned chance, instinct, reflex, reason, and other factors other than desires.

Lets not do the whole ad hom thing, o.k? Pretty please? You are also using strawman arguments that do nothing to support your Pro stance.

You asked everyone in the opening post to view the issue from all sides. That is what I'm doing. I am examining the issue from all sides. If you want to chastize me for following your instructions, then whatever.

Why not make a case for your position instead resorting to ad homs and straw man tactics?

I'm after truth, not victory. This would involve examining all the evidence presented, theorizing, and punching holes in theories in order to refine them.

May I ask you something? Do you truly think I'm detached from reality and that my eyes are closed?

If you are not recognizing other causal factors than desire, you are closing your eyes to reality, imo.

"The entire point is that our desires are a product of life circumstance; life circumstance determines our desires, and although our brain activity is quicker than conscious thought, the end result is the same (A conscious desire) on which we ultimately act. "

Methinks we have different definitions and of ideas of what desire means. I also disagree that life circumstance determines soley determines our desires.

 

[seattlegal]

Now, if you want me to defend my stance on being pro free-will, I can make the argument for the need for free-will. This is not the same as being able to point and say "this is free-will."

Would that be more acceptable?

 

[Gatekeeper]

Now, if you want me to defend my stance on being pro free-will, I can make the argument for the need for free-will. This is not the same as being able to point and say "this is free-will."

Would that be more acceptable?

I do appreciate you participation in this thread, seattlegal. I was simply not fond of your suggestion that I am detached from reality and that my eyes are closed.

You had mentioned intellect, and I agree that we use our intelligence when making some choices. What I disagree with is that intellect is the factor that motivates us to choose. I think if we have a desire to use our intellect instead of our gut, then intellect we will use. Even so, our choices to act intelligently are driven by our want/desire/need to do so.

Imagine humanity having the understanding, and realizing that our choices are not made freely. Imagine humanity understanding that all we have done and all we will ever do (Right or wrong) was unavoidable given our circumstances. How much more forgiving would we be of others? How much more would we pursue rehabilitation as opposed to retribution for those who display anti social behavior?

Furthermore, how much more easily would it be to forgive ourselves of our own shortcomings, knowing we couldn't help but to fall short? You want to give me reasons why we need freewill? I'll give you a few why we don't.

Our freedom, mankind's freedom, humanities freedom rests solely in our ability to make mistakes. It is what makes us human. If we could embrace our mistakes and not beat ourselves up over them, we would be more apt to learn from our experiences. The reason is that far too many haven't the desire to examine where they fall short, therefore they never learn from their mistakes.

It is when we miss the mark that we have the greatest potential. That potential is our ability to not only recognize where, how, and why we fell short, but also in our ability to learn from those shortcomings. If we can embrace instead of punishing ourselves with guilt, and then examine our mistakes we will be far less likely to make them again.

The idea that we are able to freely choose causes a great deal of suffering in the world. Believers condemning others for not believing, victims seeking vindictive retribution for a wrong committed against them. Refusal to forgive one's self for a mistake made, and the list goes on.

Knowing we have no freewill, accepting our mistakes and the mistakes of others would not only open the door for forgiveness, but it would also make it much easier to love the so called sinner, knowing that they, although misguided, are like us and cannot be blamed for their shortcomings.

Penalties for anti social behavior? Absolutely, but not punishment ... Rehabilitation! Real rehabilitation - not prisons, or jails, or death penalties, but love, compassion, mercy, forgiveness, and true justice.

We are what we are (Imperfect) and if we can accept and acknowledge that our actions are a product of desire and life circumstance, we can then take the necessary steps to change our desires into something better.

Our desires ultimately determine how we live, and the quality of our lives. If we can focus our thoughts and efforts on developing healthy desires, we will as individuals come to find peace in life.

Of course not all will come to this paradigm shift, but those who do will know the root cause of mankind's suffering, whereby they will be able to reshape their desires, and retrain their thoughts and eventually know a life free of guilt, shame, bitterness, hate, anger, pride, etc.

Can I prove all this? No, but I can certainly live it.

 

[seattlegal]

My arguement for the need for free-will is to make love real. If love is not freely given, then it is an illusion. If this is the case, I'll be the first one to be damned and will jump into the lake of fire saying, "failed experiment, time to clean out the petri dish."

YouTube - Nine Inch Nails - Wish

 

[Gatekeeper]

My arguement for the need for free-will is to make love real. If love is not freely given, then it is an illusion. If this is the case, I'll be the first one to be damned and will jump into the lake of fire saying, "failed experiment, time to clean out the petri dish."

YouTube - Nine Inch Nails - Wish

Love is not an illusion, it is (In part) a value and if we value love enough, we will desire to give it. Our choices are not coerced by want/desire, they are simply motivated by desire. Our desires, however, are determined by life circumstance, both by past experiences and present.

This is why it is so important to extend love towards our enemies, as receiving love by others will help develop their desire to love others themselves.

In short, If you value love then love will be your desire and you will act accordingly. Knowing that when I am loved by another, it is because that person desires to love me, which kinda gives me the warm fuzzies. .

 

[OAT]

@Gatekeeper
Is desire something that exists independently or is it dependent on other forces and factors?
If so, desire could also be affected by choices. And therefore, desire is not free and neither are choices. So, no free anything all round.