OK, I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but I'm definitely in the Pro camp. I would say that will comes before desire, so choices made from desire- even from programming are still free. To deny free will you would have to start from some point of predestination BEFORE the human experience begins. Just because we're carried along unthinkingly by our programming doesn't mean we're not choosing from a platform of free will. To be clear, I'm saying that even if choice is unconscious and completely coerced it's still an exercise of free will because there is an underlying possibility, however submerged, of autonomous will.
Chris
You suggest that will comes 'before' desire, but I think this is an impossibility. "Will" is defined as,
"The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action". If will comes before desire, then what exactly determines the decided course of action? In other words, if a desire was not first present, then how could one possibly decide to choose any action at all?
I think your thoughts on predestination before the human experience began is a very good point, though. I personally view existence to be much like a machine, geared to work a certain way. We (Humanity) may very well be mechanisms within this enormous machine, having a determined role within the machine itself. Although there seems to be random occurrences taking place, what if these occurrences are simply part of the predetermined inner workings of other mechanisms that have a particular role? I often wonder and think about how everything in existence connects, and how if one thing in the past wasn't like it was, then another thing in the present would not be like it is.
I then take that thought and apply it on a worldwide scale from past, present, to future, and I think about how even the slightest action I take can effect our world (Good or bad) on a global scale, reaching far into the future. Then I think about the concept of freewill, and how we are quite possibly driven by our desires and how our desires are driven by life circumstance, and I wonder if we are all just tiny mechanisms connected to the whole and working according to our intended purpose.
Just knowing that my actions effect the lives of others, even those who will live long after I am gone drives me to desire to be a better person. It makes me desire to change my self. The wheels of our lives never quit spinning, and the turbulence from the spin cycle reaches the four corners of the earth and beyond x infinity. And I truly believe that although our desire driven lives are a bit mechanical, we are also capable of making mistakes, which suggests we are also free. I also believe that it is our mistakes that ultimately motivate our desire to strive for something better, something more perfect than what we currently experience.
It is our mistakes that will eventually help lead us to create a better world, and the thought that our actions are determined by our circumstances makes me feel far less guilt when I fall short, just as it makes me better able to forgive others who have harmed me, knowing that they had no choice but to do what they did at that particular moment. Further more, why 'should' I feel guilty about a mistake I had no control over? Had my mistake harmed another, then I believe compassion for that person would drive me to make amends, but I see no reason to be hard on myself for something out of my control. Some may view this as having no conscience, but it is more complex than that I think.
It boils down to understanding that we are all imperfect, that we all make mistakes, and that our mistakes should serve as an example to learn from, but they should not be a reason to beat ourselves up. Using guilt as such a utility is not the ideal way to learn from our mistakes. I think a better approach would be to examine where we fell short and then to take the necessary steps in order to avoid making the same mistake again. I find our imperfections and our ability to make mistakes to make life much more interesting. They force us to examine ourselves (At times) and they push us to strive for better, more perfect things. Without imperfections, we would have nothing to strive for and our daily lives would be a monotonous nightmare as far as I'm concerned.
Mistakes are what make us human .... They are essentially our only true freedom in life (Imo).
"Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from."
-- Al Franken,
"Oh, the Things I Know", 2002
-- GK
