Why not? You are not interested in obeying God, so you are not interested in God obeying you?
That would be a solo event. No interaction there. There are plenty who read and don't interact, or hear and don't respond.
A spiritual person is...
- Thread starter Kenneth
- Start date
L
Lunitik
Guest
Don't you think it is kinda presumptive to assume you know better than God? It seems extremely egotistical to me... meditation is not about a mutual interaction, it is about losing your personal interests and being open to the cosmos.
Your perception of yourself and others is far more than what you wish to wrap up and attribute to your ego. I am sorry to hear that you perceive yourself, your ego, as bad.
I see denial with dishonesty. I'd normally throw your words together in a blender and hit frappe to try to show you, but I'll just repeat what I've heard. You infer that purpose is good, meditation is good if it serves a purpose, advancement is good, and cessation of sense-desire is good if it leads to advancement. You perceive that suffering is not advancement. You say that the separation of good and bad is meaningless. You say that obsession is always bad, and that nothing is either always good or bad.
It is kinda presumptive, and my experience says it is false, to assume that you have to know anything, to ask something of God, and for God to obey you. It sounds egotistical to not ask: for otherwise, where do you expect your knowledge to come from? Yourself? Meditation?
Whoever said meditation was an interaction? I agree with you: it is a solo pursuit. It is like hiding in the bushes. Not that you don't want to see and experience the cosmos, but that you don't want the cosmos to see and experience you.
L
Lunitik
Guest
I do not perceive my self as bad, I do see with a certainty that everything that has brought me strife in life is due to ego, however. Is this bad? It depends how much you enjoy strife I guess, if this is enjoyable to you, you would certainly view it as good. Again, everything is about perception.
I am restricted to certain wordings if I wish to portray something to another, this is all you point out here. I lack a purpose, although of course when I started meditating I had a reason. I have grown as a person as a result of meditation, but some people prefer comfort to movement. Desire is something I personally have experienced pain due to, thus I have ceased it. Some people like temporary fulfillment. I am a result of prior suffering, and thus I am grateful for it. I say there is no good or bad, other than in language - portraying ideas. Perhaps obsession has brought you joy in your life? It has not in my case however.
I am not sure what you are trying to point out really.
L
Lunitik
Guest
I do not desire knowledge, you would be surprised how much you are rewarded with if you do not chase it.
You have a very warped sense of meditation, it is very obvious that you have not given it a real shot.
greymare
Well-Known Member
Perhaps meditation and prayer are similar in that they are a personal experience.
Years ago, i tried meditation, I couldn't experience it. I was lacking... something?. lol.
but sometime later, I did experience what i call "true prayer". I had "troubles", I went for a walk, (always helps me clear my mind), and I talked to God (insert any name that suits you), I didnt get a definitive answer to my actual trouble, but I basically said to God, I have this problem and I don't know the solution on my own, so, I give it up to You(God). I did feel a calming release. I am not sure if this could be labelled as a prayer or a meditation, but either way, it felt good. (the problem didnt seem so big after that.)
Just wanted to add my own experience.
Please carry on...
Love the Grey
Years ago, i tried meditation, I couldn't experience it. I was lacking... something?. lol.
but sometime later, I did experience what i call "true prayer". I had "troubles", I went for a walk, (always helps me clear my mind), and I talked to God (insert any name that suits you), I didnt get a definitive answer to my actual trouble, but I basically said to God, I have this problem and I don't know the solution on my own, so, I give it up to You(God). I did feel a calming release. I am not sure if this could be labelled as a prayer or a meditation, but either way, it felt good. (the problem didnt seem so big after that.)
Just wanted to add my own experience.
Please carry on...
Love the Grey
It was in Post 122: "For many years of his teaching, there were absolutely no rules at all... I have repeatedly pointed towards this."
This is the issue (time-line) I was asking for clarification on. The Sangha was open to all, I believe, throughout his 45 years of teaching. Consider the case of Angulimala, the killer who wore a necklace of fingers taken from his victims.
As far as I am aware, specifically monks of the Theravadan tradition, not all. They only cease to apply if a monk disrobes.
Did the Awakened one not abide by the rules he created, throughout his life-time?
If a person remains a Theravadan monk then the Vinaya continues to apply throughout their life.
It is simply some clarification and basis for this that I was requesting.
So do you avoid knowledge thinking you are rewarded? Asking someone, like God, to do something is not necessarily a pursuit of knowledge, though it could be. Seeking the approval of someone, like God, could be regarded as a pursuit of knowledge.
If you say so. Is it, or is it not, a solo pursuit?
What led you to think that you, or your ego, are the only thing that can bring you strife?
I understand. However, pain is a sense, and the desire to not have it is likewise a desire. I see two desires that were in conflict. Life is full of decisions.
L
Lunitik
Guest
Oh, then I apologize, this is at best an assumption on my part - entirely unsubstantiated, only based on non-specific statements.
Actually, each tradition has their own set of rules, however I was intending to infer that a monk is not expected to remain so their whole life - only until they have gone to the other shore.
Can it be considered abiding? This infers some effort, which I doubt was necessary else I don't think they'd have been given to the others.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
L
Lunitik
Guest
That's what I'm saying, any pursuit is flawed because it takes us away from this moment. In this very second eternity can be experienced, but most miss it because they are thinking about their future or past. The past is done, and the future isn't here, so what purpose is there in considering either? To request something from God is to not trust his wisdom, to not take up the opportunities he provides shows fear and thus lack of loyalty.
It is my perception of a situation that brings me strife, its divergence from my desired outcome. Another cannot give me strife, for they cannot control my perception. It is a lack of honesty, the unwillingness to accept the actual situation and deal with it which continues strife.
You can overcome pain quite easily, for once you are aware of it its purpose is finished. The very fact you continue to experience the pain once you are aware of its cause proves your attachment to it. You are only refusing to let it go because you wish to protect your body. The body is impermanent, what purpose is there in clinging to it? No matter what, it will someday be necessary to depart from it. You can relieve pain by stopping attachment to the body. Of course, this is scary without meditation, for you believe you are your body.
This is provably false, any amount of research into things like near death experiences or out of body experiences make this undeniable. It is merely an illusion based on clinging to perception.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
lol. You obviously have not given birth.
L
Lunitik
Guest
lol. You obviously have not given birth.
Well, I am physically incapable, but its intensity should not effect the truth of my statement. Al-Hillaj Mansoor is a testimony to this detachment, upon his enlightenment, the Sultan heard of his claims to be the Truth - God. He was sentenced to death, for this was an offensive claim to the Sultan. His method of execution was quite torturous, his arms and legs were cut off, he smiled, his eyes were gauged out and he remained smiling. When asked why, he repeatedly reiterated that he was not this body, they were killing someone else.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Ah, the dissociative state of shock.
L
Lunitik
Guest
It depends on the source for what he actually said, this account clearly shows it was not related to shock:
Mansur Al-Hallaj - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
OK, how does this rule out shock? (I've experienced shock myself. Nothing here suggesting that shock was not involved)
L
Lunitik
Guest
Well, for me, his discussion on the topic shows non-disassociation, which is more what I was trying to display. The calmness of his response also says to me that he wasn't in shock... however this reply has made me reconsider this conclusion...
Based on your experience, did it seem almost like you were absent from the body, more as a watcher of whatever was causing the pain? This would also comply with what this story is supposed to depict. Perhaps you would like to describe your experience in more detail, did it relieve pain at all?
What this story depicts I can only associate with an out of body experience I had in my early teens. I had drank almost a bottle of vodka to myself, and due to the creeping effect of the drink I was not at all prepared for its effects. When I got home, I became quite sick and recall going to the bathroom to puke. My parents stood at the door watching over me, then after one episode of vomit I went to look up but I found myself looking back at myself quite pitifully from the position of my folks. I recall them asking me if I was ok, but I didn't answer, the boy on the floor mumbled in reply. Really strange experience, but based on how I discovered the story of this man - descriptions of several enlightened beings describing themselves as only 'watchers' of the actions of their body - I have always correlated it to this event in my life. He didn't feel the pain because he was not attached to his body, quite literally.
Similar?
Observation is in reality. Observation is on the record. Every observation is requiring energy, and increasing entropy. Even digging up a memory takes energy. Every observation, and every thought, is on the record. Observing alone is not interaction with another person or another spirit. It is a solo event. If you spy on someone then that is your energy expenditure.
L
Lunitik
Guest
An experiment repeated thousands of times by scientists disagrees with you, but you might be right?
There are actually two experiments that observe this, what I list above is about projecting carbon 40 molecules towards a sheet with slits - when observed they react as particles and thus only are traceable in correlation to the slits. When not observed, they react more like waves, their pattern is non-predictable.
Another example is that of observing atoms, when we measure the atoms speed, it has no direct location, when we measure its location is has no direct speed. You cannot measure both at the same time.
(On clicking the article, the first example here is another test based on the same premise - I have merely chosen the largest molecule to date to comply to this finding.)