Faith: Belief vs. Knowing

[Lunitik]

I disagree. Christianity does not need such people to exist. This is a question of values. If these people existed, then your mission as a Christian is to eliminate that group. If these people did not exist, then your mission is to prevent such a group from coming back into existence.

Capitalism is an ownership-driven ideology. People work hard to own more stuff. People work to increase the size of their "barns" (so to speak) -- see the corresponding story in the New Testament.

Question: Could capitalism exist in a country where Christianity isn't the majority religion?

Do you think Christianity is doing a good job at eliminating such people? Bombing and killing them isn't a valid way to eliminate them.

 

[Snoopy]

The ten commandments don't SOUND like options or choices.

 

[Lunitik]

The ten commandments don't SOUND like options or choices.

Of course there are choices though, either follow the faith or don't - the rules of the faith are applied from there... patriotism is no different, and it seems we have a dual-religion person in this thread. If you don't like the rules, you have a choice - you can leave the country or abide by its laws. Even has the same fanaticism.

If you are saying that you can follow a faith and yet ignore its rules, well, I'd have to disagree. The stories have a purpose, they built your love for your particular tradition, but it is the laws in most faiths that are the real purpose of religion. Christianity is so popular because many Christians separate the Commandments of the Old Testament from the dispensation of Jesus... they see his sacrifice for their sins as permission to commit them in the future with the simple caveat that you love God, and your neighbor as yourself - yet, when they are against something, they are quick to jump to those laws to justify their hatred... very hypocritical.

I don't actually have anything against Christianity, there are some truly beautiful statements throughout the New Testament, even the Hasidic and Kabbalist groups around the Torah are beautiful traditions. I just think a lot of Christians are fooling themselves or merely going through the motions because it's how they were brought up. I personally gravitate towards Eastern traditions more because they actually provide methods of proof rather than saying "blessed are those who have not seen and still believe", it basically says right here that you don't have to put any effort in and in fact it's better if you don't, you'll be further blessed.

Eastern religions bring real encounters with truth, direct experience. They too, however, have their issues. I don't understand people that commit to a particular tradition, personally, because you're only getting one perspective. They all share truth, and they all contain cruft, disregard the cruft and discover the truth... this, for me, is the only path to God. Every founder of a religion was merely an enlightened man that gained substantial following - they all start out as cults, going against the orthodoxy. If these men can go against the orthodoxy, why are we so strict in following their rebellion? It makes no sense to me...

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Question: Could capitalism exist in a country where Christianity isn't the majority religion?

Do you think Christianity is doing a good job at eliminating such people? Bombing and killing them isn't a valid way to eliminate them.

I think a lot of people see a group of other people like a unified force, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, people are never all the same and they don't have any control over each other, not even they guys at the top.

I just finished a book called War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning by Chris Hedges. Good book, depressive outlook on humanity. From the authors perspective, it was clear that religion is not often the cause of the war even though it can be used as motivation and control.

I don't think it is fair to look at what a person or a group of people do and judge the religion to witch they belong, and thus, everyone who belong to that religion.

 

[Lunitik]

I know, I know, Jesus was God incarnate... every enlightened person is a deity in the East though.

In reality, Jesus was born a human in a human womb, he was intelligent in his youth as most enlightened people are, and he reached enlightenment probably during those 40 days of fasting and worshiping prior to his mission. Most traditions call this a retreat, it is very common. This is also how Muhammad and others reached enlightenment, and millions of other people through human history.

I would almost bet on this, since the story of Mara and the Devil during the retreats of Buddha and Jesus are vastly similar.

 

[Lunitik]

I think a lot of people see a group of other people like a unified force, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, people are never all the same and they don't have any control over each other, not even they guys at the top.

I just finished a book called War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning by Chris Hedges. Good book, depressive outlook on humanity. From the authors perspective, it was clear that religion is not often the cause of the war even though it can be used as motivation and control.

I don't think it is fair to look at what a person or a group of people do and judge the religion to witch they belong, and thus, everyone who belong to that religion.

I am of course making generalizations, yet you haven't actually answered my question...

I think it is entirely fair, however, because as Jesus said: judge them by their fruits. The fruits of Christianity are EXTREMELY materialistic and war is a materialistic pursuit: it is about gaining more land and resources. If you don't accept this, take a walk through Vatican City sometime.

I would say the same about Islam and Judaism, the former lost their way with the Umayya and Abisad Caliphates, and Judaism has always fought to protect what God has provided them. Again, the former has pursued taxes for anyone not part of their faith, and the latter puts emphasis on land their book tells them they own... neither are spiritual affairs. Please don't think I am singling out Christianity!

Hindu monarchs have slaughtered Buddhists, Buddhists have participated in various unjust wars, every faith has its dark sides... my only issue is that man still aligns with a particular tradition rather than going his own way and using these resources merely to learn and be pointed in the right direction. Humans seem to really need to align with groups though, and this is vastly poisonous, we forget to think for ourselves. We have each been given the ability to discern for ourselves, aligning to someone elses truth is not going to allow you to know truth. All it permits is the vague hint of truth, and only then if it doesn't go against what you've been told to believe by someone who hasn't known truth themselves. It is all a very sick cycle in my eyes.

 

[Waymarker]

I personally gravitate towards Eastern traditions more because they actually provide methods of proof rather than saying "blessed are those who have not seen and still believe", it basically says right here that you don't have to put any effort in and in fact it's better if you don't, you'll be further blessed....

Which of those Eastern traditions provide proof that it's the correct one?
I mean, they can't ALL be correct, surely? What is this 'proof' anyway?

Regarding Christianity, Jesus was solid flesh and blood seen performing mind-blowing miracles by the entire nation of Israel plus the Roman military garrison, so I'd say his credentials are pretty good as proof goes..

"..even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."- John 10:38

Bringing little girl back to life
Bringing widows son back to life
Bringing Lazarus back to life
Stilling the storm
Feeding 4000
Walking on sea
Feeding 5000
Coin in fishes mouth
Withering fig tree
Big catch of fish
Water into wine
Another big fish catch
Healing leper
Healing Centurions servant
Healing Peters mother-in-law
Healing sick at evening
Healing paralysed man
Healing haemorraging woman
Healing two blind men
Healing mans withered hand
Healing Canaanite womans daughter
Healing boy with seizures
Healing blind man
Healing deaf and dumb man
Healing another blind man
Healing crippled woman
Healing man with dropsy
Healing 10 lepers
Restoring a cut-off ear
Healing noblemans sons fever
Healing crippled man at Bethesda
Healing a born-blind man
Casting out demons into pigs
Curing a mute lunatic
Casting out dirty spirit
Curing a possessed blind-dumb man
Appeared to his followers after his death

 

[Waymarker]

[Jesus].. reached enlightenment probably during those 40 days of fasting and worshipping...This is also how Muhammad and others reached enlightenment, and millions of other people through human history..

Mohammed said to stone adulterers, we can see it on youtube even today, is that "enlightenment"?
I think I prefer Jesus's brand of enlightenment above anybody elses..

 

[Dream]

I just finished a book called War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning by Chris Hedges. Good book, depressive outlook on humanity. From the authors perspective, it was clear that religion is not often the cause of the war even though it can be used as motivation and control.

You need something to cheer you up after reading that.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

I am of course making generalizations, yet you haven't actually answered my question...

This one?

Question: Could capitalism exist in a country where Christianity isn't the majority religion?

I don't know, I don't have any knowledge of how they relate to each other. What you call religious defects I call human. For me, religion is an expression of both good and bad in humanity. Religion isn't the source of greed or charity, but a tool.
I just think you and I have very different understanding to agree on this. The important thing is that we understand and respect each others point of view.

You need something to cheer you up after reading that.

Yes.

 

[Dream]

Yes.

OK, no problem. Just hang on while I think of a joke.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

OK, no problem. Just hang on while I think of a joke.

I really like the book though. I have very little experience with human suffering, but everything he writes makes a lot of sense to me. I bought the book a long time ago and only skimmed the first pages to get an idea what it was about. Now I have gotten it into my head to join the military and they only take people who are prepared to participate in our countries peace keeping assignments. We are there as a buffer zone rather than an invading force. But it's still an armed group of people telling people what to do in a sense and I think it would do me good to dispel as many myths as I can if I ever have to go to a war zone.
This book has left me with a lot of questions, most of them surrounding how my countrymen are affected in this situation when they are not actually encouraged to kill people. I mean, they are still a authority and power probably corrupts a lot quicker in a place of despair.

I'm still waiting on that joke...

 

[Waymarker]

..I have gotten it into my head to join the military and they only take people who are prepared to participate in our countries peace keeping assignments...

Keeping the peace is a worthwhile job, and sometimes peace can only be kept or restored by tackling the people who are disrupting it..
"The spider taketh hold with her hands, and is in kings palaces"- Proverbs 30:28 KJV

US troops near one of Saddam Hussein's abandoned palaces in Bayji,Iraq 2008

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Keeping the peace is a worthwhile job, and sometimes peace can only be kept or restored by tackling the people who are disrupting it..

I try to be mindful of the hippocratic oath. We go in and mess with peoples lives and the road to hell is bricked by good intentions as they say.

 

[Tamar]

Can a person of faith know the true path? Or do they believe it is the true path? I find that these words are often mixed up, are there a difference?

I personally don't believe the general population know right from wrong in science. There are always scientists arguing from both sides of a dispute. And reading a report about the population growth of a certain rodent in a specific area won't give me the knowledge to know that it is true. I can learn the different markers and signs that there is a population growth and I can trust that the scientist is telling the whole truth, and I can believe that they made all necessary experiments and made the the propper conclusions based on this. But I don't believe that I can know that they didn't miss a vital fact.

But Faith don't work like this, and since I have next to no experience with faith I wish to learn.

Faith is what we have, it cannot be proven. Religion espouses beliefs that folks in that group need to believe in order to be members of a group. I don't believe there is truth and I don't believe religions who say they have the truth are right. I believe that each of us chooses our path and for us it is right.

As a Jew I have a faith, but I am part of a people. Both for me are connected but if I were to lose my faith tomorrow I would still have my connection to my people and that would never go away. It would give me peace.

 

[Quahom1]

Can a person of faith know the true path? Or do they believe it is the true path? I find that these words are often mixed up, are there a difference?

I personally don't believe the general population know right from wrong in science. There are always scientists arguing from both sides of a dispute. And reading a report about the population growth of a certain rodent in a specific area won't give me the knowledge to know that it is true. I can learn the different markers and signs that there is a population growth and I can trust that the scientist is telling the whole truth, and I can believe that they made all necessary experiments and made the the propper conclusions based on this. But I don't believe that I can know that they didn't miss a vital fact.

But Faith don't work like this, and since I have next to no experience with faith I wish to learn.

Faith: Belief is like a Royal Flush in poker. One thinks they have what it takes to win the game, but there is still a tiny bit of doubt.

Knowing is like Five of a kind (say, four aces and a joker as the wild card). Regardless what everyone else thinks, this one has already won the game...

 

[Waymarker]

I try to be mindful of the hippocratic oath. We go in and mess with peoples lives and the road to hell is bricked by good intentions as they say.

Sorry you've lost me, you want to be a combat medic or what?
PS- how do we look up peoples profiles in this forum to see their age, location, sex, background etc so we have some idea who we're talking to?

 

[Quahom1]

Sorry you've lost me, you want to be a combat medic or what?
PS- how do we look up peoples profiles in this forum to see their age, location, sex, background etc so we have some idea who we're talking to?

Upper left corner where the person's avatar is, click on the name...

 

[Snoopy]

I'm still waiting on that joke...

Three men died and went to heaven. The first man stood before St. Peter, and St. Peter said to him, "Our records show that you never cheated on your wife. You get to cruise around heaven in a Ferrari." The second man approached St. Peter, and St. Peter said to him, "You cheated on your wife twice, which isn't too bad. You can ride around heaven in a BMW."
The third man approached St. Peter, and St. Peter said to him, "Ooh... you cheated on your wife twenty times. You only get a Nissan Micra."

Later on, the man with the Micra sees the first man sitting in his parked Ferrari, sobbing like a baby. 

"What's wrong?" asks the man with Micra. 

"I just saw my wife," came the reply "and she was riding around on a bicycle."

 

[Quahom1]

Three men died and went to heaven. The first man stood before St. Peter, and St. Peter said to him, "Our records show that you never cheated on your wife. You get to cruise around heaven in a Ferrari." The second man approached St. Peter, and St. Peter said to him, "You cheated on your wife twice, which isn't too bad. You can ride around heaven in a BMW."
The third man approached St. Peter, and St. Peter said to him, "Ooh... you cheated on your wife twenty times. You only get a Nissan Micra."

Later on, the man with the Micra sees the first man sitting in his parked Ferrari, sobbing like a baby.

"What's wrong?" asks the man with Micra.

"I just saw my wife," came the reply "and she was riding around on a bicycle."

Now that's funny, lol, pathetic, but funny...