Faith: Belief vs. Knowing

A Cup of Tea said:
Can a person of faith know the true path? Or do they believe it is the true path? I find that these words are often mixed up, are there a difference?
You start life from the position of not knowing yourself and never finish the greeting. To live our sense of reality comes from our relationships and to a lesser extent our surroundings. The most real thing is a relationship. Reality extends outward from that center.
 
Can a person of faith know the true path? Or do they believe it is the true path? I find that these words are often mixed up, are there a difference?
As I read and experience it, faith is a quality in the relations between individuals. I wouldn't think of faith as a path: more like the creation of paths. I wouldn't think of faith as a solo activity: more like taking part in a dance where you don't really know the steps that everyone will take. There is potential freedom for a wide variety of dance moves. Every path taken is true, but not everyone is true about the paths they have taken, are taking, or will be taking.
 
..Can a person of faith know the true path?..

Firstly, Jesus spelt out the core beliefs of Christianity-
"Love God, love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"

And billions around the world think "Hey I like that!" and become Christians.
After all, if there's a truer, better path, what on earth could it be?

Furthermore, once someone becomes a proper Christian (and remember Jesus said most are NOT proper), they experience a sense of inner strength, calmness, self-confidence and power like it says on the tin-
"for our gospel came not with words, but with power"
which indicates they're definitely on the right path..:)

"My Christian faith is my backbone"- said by Bear Grylls on TV and on his website
b-grrylls.gif





"God is my best friend, the reason I live, my inspiration and the reason I do what I do"- Rebecca Saint James
chr-wom.gif
 
I think I get what you're saying Lunitik, some things are so true for people that it is there is no longer room for faith, faith is, redundant in those instances.

But would you say that these truths are very subjective, and that you and I know gravity to be a fact as the same time wil is taking it by faith.

I have seen faith simply defined as "a belief not founded on fact", the post I tried to remove basically iterated this, but the dictionary also defined it as a trust. I still am not sure how valid it is to trust something without any reason to do so...

With the example of the rope bridge, I certainly wouldn't trust it unless I saw someone else cross without issue. If I have no reason to believe in something, why put my faith in it?

Most religious groups dictate certain laws without a real explanation, if i except these words as fact, I am then obligated to obey these rules. What if I'm wrong? I have vastly deteriorated my enjoyment of life based on my own error, it isn't like I can take this back in the future. Meanwhile, there are various traditions that focus on experiencing truth for yourself, through these traditions I can understand the basis of laws and thus apply them directly to me life. I have experienced a kensho, and thus understand oneness deeply, I don't need laws to shape how I relate to the world because I know how I relate. Laws serve to repress when there are no explanations behind them, this is seen most clearly in the molestation cases in various traditions.

Truly, the worst thing about religions today is the stories attached, there is so little on the actual alchemy of religion in most traditions that they argue about the most pathetic things. This shows how poisonous faith is compared to real experience. Think of how many people through history have been killed based on not completely understanding a given scripture, know that every scripture essentially describes the same thing, and understand complete how dangerous blind faith can be.
 
"Love God, love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"

What is sick about this is that the Church NEEDS such people to continue existing... they need hungry, homeless, destitute, sick and poor people to give purpose to their tradition. Rather than raising the standards of living for all, they go about such actions as can raise their stock in heaven. Without such people, there can be no more Saints.

You call these people Saints, I say they are some of the most selfish people to ever exist. This is the foundation for the economics structures in the West, where extremes of poverty and wealth are accepted as part of our society. If there weren't these extremes, Christianity wouldn't be sustainable because you have to buy your way into heaven in this tradition through helping those you yourself have assisted in becoming poor... it is disgraceful! If these people had shared their wealth more effectively they wouldn't have to help the less fortunate - there simply wouldn't be any!

Meanwhile, the Vatican has an estimated $50 billion at its disposal. Every other Church takes money from its people, but the Christians still have to pay out of pocket in addition to this if they want to help people.

And billions around the world think "Hey I like that!" and become Christians.
After all, if there's a truer, better path, what on earth could it be?

Truth, oneness.

Any tradition that says "I am the only way" is flawed from the start... they automatically set themselves against every other path. Wars have been fought on these 5 words alone!
 
A Cup of Tea said:
Now we are arguing over the exact definition of words, which I'm not very fond. A word can have very different meaning in different contexts.
or in two different brains in the same context.
 
Any tradition that says "I am the only way" is flawed from the start... they automatically set themselves against every other path. Wars have been fought on these 5 words alone!

I would point out however that every tradition during the Kali Yuga has said this:

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” - Christianity, John 14:6
“This is the path. There is no other that leads to vision.” - Buddhism, Dhammapada 20:274
“Whoso seeks guidance elsewhere, God will lead him astray.” - Islam, Imam ‘Ali Hadith
“Abandoning all duties, come to Me alone for shelter.” - Hinduism, Bhagavad Gita 18:66

There are similar statement in other traditions as well... why do I say this is part of the Kali Yuga? Because this age is about fighting and destruction, if everyone thinks their way is the only way, they will fight to uphold what they think is right.

They cannot each be right, however, and Maitreya's "Unity" discusses this at length. He doesn't say his words are better, he in fact says we should all take what is valuable from every religion and drop what is not. This is the future of religion in my opinion, and there are many people attempting it - although all are creating a new tradition through merging the old which is erroneous.

He goes further in saying his words would also be damaging to accept blindly...
 
you have to buy your way into heaven in this tradition through helping those you yourself have assisted in becoming poor... it is disgraceful! If these people had shared their wealth more effectively they wouldn't have to help the less fortunate - there simply wouldn't be any!....
Meanwhile, the Vatican has an estimated $50 billion at its disposal.

Any tradition that says "I am the only way" is flawed from the start... they automatically set themselves against every other path. Wars have been fought on these 5 words alone!"

Firstly, if you've got a beef with catholics and the other fat cats of organised religion, go tell them not me, I rejected O.R. years ago and go my own way..:)
If it's any consolation to you, Jesus said that he's going to say to many people who think they're christians-"Get away from me!", and that "only a few" will find the true path through him.

Secondly. if you disagree with him saying that he's the Way and the Truth, tell him when you meet him..:)
 
..Most religious groups dictate certain laws without a real explanation, if i except these words as fact, I am then obligated to obey these rules..

Just walk out of the religious groups if you don't like them..:)
I've lost count of the churches I've walked out of over the years because they were a disgrace.
The bible actually TELLS US not to hang around with fools!
 
Just walk out of the religious groups if you don't like them..:)
I've lost count of the churches I've walked out of over the years because they were a disgrace.
The bible actually TELLS US not to hang around with fools!

I would be very much interested in hearing about your own practice, the books you like, the historical persons you find inspiring. I find people who can go their own way and not get taken hostage by the group mind very likable. :)
 
I would be very much interested in hearing about your own practice, the books you like, the historical persons you find inspiring. I find people who can go their own way and not get taken hostage by the group mind very likable. :)

I was a born rebel, so Christianity came easy to me because it's all about rejecting the world.
I drifted into becoming a self-styled 'internet evangelist' to take Jesus back from the boneheads of organised religion, and the feedback I get from people indicates I'm doing alright in that respect.
What books do I like?- Military history and exploration.
And the people I like are those with guts, no matter who or what they are, for example-

Stonewall Jackson
jacksnuj9.jpg


"My religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready, no matter when it may overtake me. That is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave"- Gen Thomas Stonewall Jackson

"There is Jackson standing like a stone wall !" - Gen Bernard Bee at 1st battle of Bull Run
 
Christianity rejects the world?

Did Jesus idolise miltary figures?
 
just asking your opinion on the difference between believing and knowing

I've always liked Voltaire's quote:
"Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to believe."


We prescribe medicine and design bridges based on science, not faith. I know the bridge will hold the weight of my car based on its design & testing, and can prove it to you following the scientific method. Same for any prescription medicine you take. It has been studied following the scientific method, no "blind faith" required.

Some people have "faith" in heaven and/or hell, or other religious beliefs not based on the scientific method. But these things cannot be proven using the power of reason, therefore are "beyond the power of reason to believe."

If we don't guide our lives by reason and scientific method, how do we know what to have "faith" in and what is true/false? How do you know which "prophet" or "holy book" to follow, which bridge is safe to cross, or how best to treat your wife's cancer?
 
Christianity rejects the world?
Did Jesus idolise miltary figures?

You'll have to ask Jesus about military figures yourself when you meet him mate, but as for rejecting the world, it's clear enough-

Jesus said:- "The world wants you to dance to its tune......God has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners...to release the oppressed" (Matt 11:16/17,Luke 4:18 )

"Jesus saved you from the empty way of life handed you by your forefathers" (1 Pet 1:18 )

"Don't conform to the pattern of this world" (Rom 12:2)

"As a soldier of Christ, please only God and not the world" (2 Tim 2:3/4)

"Don't love the world or the things in it,otherwise the love of God is not in you" (1 John 2:15-17)

"Set your mind on things above,not on things on the earth" (Col 3:2)

"You were bought at a price,don't serve men" (1 Cor 7:23)

"A friend of the world is the enemy of God" (James 4:4)

"You died with Christ from this world, so don't keep submitting to its rules" (Col 2:20)

"You were dead when you followed the ways of the world" (Eph 2:1/2)
 
What is sick about this is that the Church NEEDS such people to continue existing... they need hungry, homeless, destitute, sick and poor people to give purpose to their tradition. Rather than raising the standards of living for all, they go about such actions as can raise their stock in heaven. Without such people, there can be no more Saints.

I disagree. Christianity does not need such people to exist. This is a question of values. If these people existed, then your mission as a Christian is to eliminate that group. If these people did not exist, then your mission is to prevent such a group from coming back into existence.

It's relative. What is poverty today was wealth and riches yesterday. The industrial revolution increased the living standards of millions and billions of people around the world.

This however does not eliminate the problem. The problem is not the absolute living conditions of a particular group of people but the laziness and lack of action. We no longer encourage the general population to engage in acts of charity and hospitality. We leave this to the government. That's the function that social security performs.

Social security takes away the need for the general population to look after the poor, homeless and oppressed. It becomes the government's job. Instead of looking after the underclass directly, we vote for policies that we think will help them.

What this does is eliminate the need for the direct experience of engaging in acts of charity and hospitality. Our generosity becomes less personal. We donate our money to some organisation and never meet the people who need our help. We become disconnected from those people and never know their real issues.

What I regard as "saints" are those brave enough to seek that direct experience, rather than going through some organisation. The true saints are those who experience everything first hand. They work hard so they can earn enough money to help the poor and homeless and they are also the ones to meet them personally.

It's like the way of the sword versus the way of the gun. In the good old days of fighting with swords, you got close and personal. You went the distance, charging forward to meet the enemy. When firearms came along, people did not have to rush the full length of the battlefield to meet their foe. They could kill them at a distance.

You call these people Saints, I say they are some of the most selfish people to ever exist. This is the foundation for the economics structures in the West, where extremes of poverty and wealth are accepted as part of our society.

The problem is capitalism. That's why you've got it wrong.

Capitalism is an ownership-driven ideology. People work hard to own more stuff. People work to increase the size of their "barns" (so to speak) -- see the corresponding story in the New Testament.

Poverty exists because people never really cared enough to do anything about it, not because the idea of an underclass is itself the reason why an underclass exists. Poverty exists because people were too busy getting rich rather than making sure everyone was getting fed and living comfortably.

Poverty exists because people aren't satisfied with what they have. Enough is never enough. People always want more.

Having a $10,000 isn't enough. You want a $100,000 home. Yesterday's new stuff is today's old stuff. The market value of a car, home, computer, etc. keeps going down. People keep having to buy and sell and so the cycle keeps repeating itself.

Technological progress is the reason why "poverty" and "underclasses" continue to exist. People keep wanting more and are satisfied with less. Today's underclass was yesterday's middle class and so on and so on. Eventually we are going to end up with few resources left and will start fighting wars to get the last remaining drops of energy. That's what nuclear weapons are for -- to get the last of the last.

If there weren't these extremes, Christianity wouldn't be sustainable because you have to buy your way into heaven in this tradition through helping those you yourself have assisted in becoming poor... it is disgraceful! If these people had shared their wealth more effectively they wouldn't have to help the less fortunate - there simply wouldn't be any!

This isn't about earning your way into heaven. This is about values. People today are more focused on getting rich than helping the underclass. They are too busy making sure the market value of their property and quality of life either keeps going up or doesn't come down. That to me is a form of economic slavery. You will never have enough, not because it's technologically impossible. It's psychologically impossible. These people never believe they have enough. They are never satisfied.

They are too busy building bigger barns.......:rolleyes:

If we lived on mana from heaven, we would have solved this problem ages ago.

I believe we have all the technology, energy and resources to eliminate "poverty" in the world. The reason why we have failed so far is because those of us in the West are not willing to sacrifice our comfort for those in Africa.

The economic model of the West is not designed to combat poverty. It's designed for profit and continual maintenance and development.

Most of us think Mao Zedong failed in his economic policies. I think he may have succeeded. The reason why people think communism is a failure is more because of a difference in measuring economic performance. Economic performance was measured by developments in infrastructure and technological progress rather than "human satisfaction."

No, it wasn't a technological success. It was a success in propaganda. Mao Zedong tricked his people into thinking they had enough. They were more focused in fighting capitalists than in getting rich. That's all that was needed to solve poverty in China. Get rid of the capitalists.:D

Yes, there would have been plenty of health issues and people dying. But I think people were far more satisfied with their lives than they are now. When Deng Xiaoping introduced capitalism to China, things changed. "To get rich is glorious" was the slogan. That is actually the cruelest slogan ever invented -- to tell people that your life isn't good enough, that you have to have more.

Mao Zedong was like Jesus to the Chinese. They probably thought he was divine. Who doesn't worship a great leader?

The trouble with Western Christians is that they never got rid of capitalism. They didn't engage in class struggle. They allowed themselves to become slaves of capitalism. They allowed the culture of private individual ownership of property to exist and persist rather than promoting collective ownership of property.

The idea that capitalism is better than communism is a lie. Only as long as we have an abundance of energy and resources is capitalism better. If we didn't have huge oil wells, if the earth was smaller or there was less water, capitalism may not have been such a great success. Aren't we lucky to have planet earth!!!
 
I wonder what Stonewall Jackson would have made of:

Exodus 20:13: Thou shalt not kill.

Deuteronomy 5:17: Thou shalt not kill.

Matthew 5:21: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.

Romans 13:9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
 
You call these people Saints, I say they are some of the most selfish people to ever exist. This is the foundation for the economics structures in the West, where extremes of poverty and wealth are accepted as part of our society. If there weren't these extremes, Christianity wouldn't be sustainable because you have to buy your way into heaven in this tradition through helping those you yourself have assisted in becoming poor... it is disgraceful! If these people had shared their wealth more effectively they wouldn't have to help the less fortunate - there simply wouldn't be any!

Just to make what I said clearer ....... the idea of Christianity helping the underclass is not the problem and this isn't about buying your way into heaven.

It is about Christians missing the point. The trouble with Christians today is that they live just like everyone else when it comes to communal economics. Christians today consume just as much as non-Christians.

If poverty and underclasses are about satisfaction with one's quality of life, Christians have failed.

If there was more collectivisation of community resources, Christians would need less and would therefore be able to send the surplus elsewhere. They would also have more time to travel to help those in need.

They would also not need to buy as many houses and bunch together in collective shelters to minimise costs and debt. Home loans and mortgages would be smaller.

If only we were socialists and communists.

Jim Jones did the brave thing of rebelling against capitalism. Unfortunately, he got violent. Actually no, he should be regarded as a hero, willing to die, even to kill a senator to prove his point. Jim Jones and his community were martyrs -- like Jesus.

The other guy I admire is the South-Korean gunman at Virginia Tech and what he said about Jesus and the dehumanising culture of capitalism.
 
It's relative. What is poverty today was wealth and riches yesterday.

Perceived poverty is relative in historical terms as you suggest (for instance I have a far wider variety of foods to choose from than did Napoleon or Rockefeller, not to mention air travel, etc). Perceived poverty is also relative to the standards of those around us, and those of different countries.

Several years ago the Wall Street Journal had a great article called "America has the World's Richest Poor People." Bottom line was people who were considered "poor" in this country still had air conditioning, heating, washer/dryer, dishwasher, microwave, TV, car, etc. People in many other countries would be considered middle or upper class with those amenities.

I lived for a year in Mexico as a college student and witnessed true poverty (what it looks like with no "social security" as you mention). Young kids begging on the street when they should be in school. "Houses" in the Mexico City barrios made from recycled plywood and tin, and raw sewage literally running down the street (millions there don't have flush toilets). Many people not having met their basic needs of food, clothing, shelter. Got to know people who lived very happily on income levels that would be considered dire poverty in this country, they seemed to value friends and family more than most Americans I've met. Changed my perspective on how much money one needs to be happy in life.
 
Saltmeister said:
The trouble with Western Christians is that they never got rid of capitalism. They didn't engage in class struggle. They allowed themselves to become slaves of capitalism. They allowed the culture of private individual ownership of property to exist and persist rather than promoting collective ownership of property.
Its too soon to be talking past tense.
It is about Christians missing the point. The trouble with Christians today is that they live just like everyone else when it comes to communal economics. Christians today consume just as much as non-Christians.
Everything is so complicated. Mommas keep having babies, and there are distracting political struggles frequently, countries keep attacking each other and threatening. Old wise people keep dying and getting replaced by new kids.
 
I wonder what Stonewall Jackson would have made of:
Exodus 20:13: Thou shalt not kill.
Deuteronomy 5:17: Thou shalt not kill.
Matthew 5:21: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill...
Romans 13:9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill..

It's all a matter of personal conscience and soul-searching, so clearly Jackson thought his cause was just, as do other soldiers in other wars since time immemorial, only God can judge..

"Raise a banner on a bare hilltop, I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath..they come from faraway lands..to destroy the whole country..and destroy the sinners within it" (Isaiah ch 13)

iwoflag.jpg
 
Back
Top