Faith: Belief vs. Knowing

Waymarker quote- No disrespect to Buddha, but why on earth should we listen to him rather than the Son of God?



Yup, I'm asking not just for myself but for the popcorn-munching audience who are following this thread with fascination.
Now tell us why Buddhism is better than any other religion..:)

That wasn't the question you asked, but I can answer this one as well.
Quite simply, it isn't.
It is never a matter of this over that, Buddhism better than Christianity. Many wonderful Christian writers who loved Christ with all their might read about other religions as well, and found that their own faith grew deeper.
But perhaps the shallow end of the pool is more comfortable after all.
 
Yup, I'm asking not just for myself but for the popcorn-munching audience who are following this thread with fascination.
Now tell us why Buddhism is better than any other religion..:)

I've been authorised by Paladin to put the audience to sleep by saying:

No-one is saying there is superiority of one approach over another.

This is not an arm-wrestle to establish the winner and sole rightful owner of the one true way.
 
Wanna go get a glass of stout? I know a great little place, good vegetarian food.

The head'll have gone by the time I get there! And a stout without its head is...well... unthinkable!!!
 
Waymarker quote- No disrespect to Buddha, but why on earth should we listen to him rather than the Son of God?

I kissed the ring of my local Cardinal years ago ---and I knew why I was doing it ---yet again during this present lifetime.

With all due respect for the remnents of World Christians ---You all accomplished very little then other then establishing the Red-Cross and the Geneva Conventions.

You all have been repeatedly getting your grandchildren in one conflagration after the other ---check the History books and notice that each generation has had to be conscripted and enter into war.

I am not taking about any religious minded war ---but as the Head turns so goes the body.

At least we can say about both the good and the bad components: they are our good and the bad components.


In Breve:
You listen to Buddha's instructions to gain more wisdom than your provincial tradition utilised.
 
The head'll have gone by the time I get there! And a stout without its head is...well... unthinkable!!!

Agreed, but what shall I do with two glasses of good Colorado stout brewed with chocolate and hazlenut?
 
..Many wonderful Christian writers who loved Christ with all their might read about other religions as well, and found that their own faith grew deeper..

Such as who?
I know a little bit about other religions too, and they leave me stone cold..
 
...With all due respect for the remnents of World Christians ---You all accomplished very little then other then establishing the Red-Cross and the Geneva Conventions.
You all have been repeatedly getting your grandchildren in one conflagration after the other ---check the History books and notice that each generation has had to be conscripted and enter into war..

Firstly- the 'remnants' (as you call them) of Christians are a pretty big 'remnant', cue pie chart..:)-

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And secondly pictures like this of Buddhists running riot in the streets of the Far East were all over our TV screens not too long ago.
(Christians don't run riot in the streets)..:)

budd-riots.jpg




Incidentally our British Labour Party sent our troops to invade Afgh, and our Tory Party are keeping them there but my conscience is clear because I never voted for either of them..
 
Such as who?
I know a little bit about other religions too, and they leave me stone cold..

Ever read Merton? Brother David Steindl Rast? Even some of the folks round here like Seattle Gal, and Thomas are quite well versed in other religions beside their most beloved Christianity.
The fact that these other religions leave you cold doesn't tarnish the light that shines through them at all.
I find the poetry of Rumi very inspiring, the Haiku of Bassho most rewarding. But if you so choose to close your heart to these things, no one will argue against your choice.
Christianity holds much rewarding literature as well. Thomas could give you a fine list for the study of Patristics (sp?) I particularly enjoy "The Cloud Of Unknowing" and most beloved anything by Meister Eckhart. There is Julian Of Norwich, St. John of the Cross, I could go on.
 
Such as who?
I know a little bit about other religions too, and they leave me stone cold..
You do realize that you go about your faith differently than most of the faithful here. As with your favourite subject, military history, you absorb fact that you can measure and compare. You probably choose Christianity as your religion a long time ago, or it was chosen for you, and now you have it in your head that you need to point out to everyone why your faith it 'better' than any other.
Firstly, why? I don't presume to judge you, but from where I'm sitting you seem to hold on to your faith by 'winning' over others, 'proving' your way is correct. This is, as said before, not very hard in religious texts. There is always arguments going both ways. I really hope your faith is stronger than this though and I only tell you what I see for your benefit, and I want to hear your side of the story.
Secondly, I don't think this is in the spirit of this forum. I see this place more of a cooperation and what you do as a competition. And you have nothing to gain by going on like you do, you won't actually convert anyone, and your aggressive points of view can put people of. Like me.

I do write this with respect in my heart. A lot of what you write annoy me to no end, but I truly want to discuss this with you.
With regards
A, Ordinary, Cup Of Tea
 
And secondly pictures like this of Buddhists running riot in the streets of the Far East were all over our TV screens not too long ago.
(Christians don't run riot in the streets)..:)

You know, filling up pages with pictures is not great forum conduct but this one does have a point. Armed militia and unarmed monks. Do you know why such incidences occur?
 
Hinduism lets the Caste System go on under its nose which holds that the low-born are not as equal as everybody else and that beggars must stay in the gutter.Sorry but I therefore see no 'enlightenment' in Hinduism and think I prefer Christianity

This is a valid complaint, of course, and I have much more negative things to say about their take on reincarnation. You must not judge an entire faith on a few people however, for today there are almost 7 billion people on the earth and estimates of 600 enlightened people. It is a very small percentage to say the least. Governments have a vested interest in separating the people, if all the people unite against a government it is overthrown quickly.

As regards Buddhism, Buddha was just a mortal man giving us his own thoughts and words, whereas Jesus gave us Gods, THAT's the major difference between Buddhism and Christianity.

You should look in to the Trikaya, you will notice that its very similar to the trinity, yet about 500 years older. Can you prove Jesus gave God's word? No more so than I can prove Buddha gave Dharmakaya's words... Jesus tells us to judge by the fruits however, and Buddhism has resulted in many people becoming enlightened. In the Christian world, theosis is barely known, let alone taught as a goal.

Jesus wasn't even fully enlightened, even, for if he was he would be incapable of returning. I do believe he'll be returning as he came first time - through a womans womb - and will become fully enlightened at that time. What is humorous, however, is that you have chosen to compare faiths which teach the same ultimate end. Why do you separate them in this way?
 
Jesus wasn't even fully enlightened, even, for if he was he would be incapable of returning. I do believe he'll be returning as he came first time - through a womans womb - and will become fully enlightened at that time. What is humorous, however, is that you have chosen to compare faiths which teach the same ultimate end. Why do you separate them in this way?

I do not even think the ultimate goal of Jesus' teachings was enlightenment. Enlightenment is your paradigm, but not the paradigm of Jesus. Consider this passage:

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matthew 11:28-30

It doesn't sound like Jesus wants to teach "enlightenment." Jesus taught people "the way," but "the way" is not enlightenment. Enlightenment sounds like a pretty big hurdle to me. "Enlightenment" seems to imply "intellectual" and if that is what you mean by enlightenment, then that was not Jesus' goal. Intellectualism is not for everyone. Jesus' followers were not intellectuals. If by enlightened you mean "educated," then again, Jesus' followers were not educated. Education is not for everyone.

If the ultimate goal was not to educate or to be intellectual, then I think the concept of enlightenment is incompatible with Jesus and Christianity. I have been reading some of your posts and it seems you are proposing something you consider universal. From what I have seen however, your concept doesn't seem universal enough to include either Jesus or Christianity.

The Nazarene Way does not exclude education or intellectualism but nor does it require education or intellectualism. If enlightenment requires education or intellectualism then it doesn't match the Nazarene Way. The Nazarene Way was a path that included both great and small, the simple and intellectual, rich and poor, the strong and the weak. It was not elitist.
 
I do not even think the ultimate goal of Jesus' teachings was enlightenment. Enlightenment is your paradigm, but not the paradigm of Jesus. Consider this passage:

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matthew 11:28-30

It doesn't sound like Jesus wants to teach "enlightenment." Jesus taught people "the way," but "the way" is not enlightenment. Enlightenment sounds like a pretty big hurdle to me. "Enlightenment" seems to imply "intellectual" and if that is what you mean by enlightenment, then that was not Jesus' goal. Intellectualism is not for everyone. Jesus' followers were not intellectuals. If by enlightened you mean "educated," then again, Jesus' followers were not educated. Education is not for everyone.

If the ultimate goal was not to educate or to be intellectual, then I think the concept of enlightenment is incompatible with Jesus and Christianity. I have been reading some of your posts and it seems you are proposing something you consider universal. From what I have seen however, your concept doesn't seem universal enough to include either Jesus or Christianity.

The Nazarene Way does not exclude education or intellectualism but nor does it require education or intellectualism. If enlightenment requires education or intellectualism then it doesn't match the Nazarene Way. The Nazarene Way was a path that included both great and small, the simple and intellectual, rich and poor, the strong and the weak. It was not elitist.

You understand that "yoke" is the most direct translation of "yoga" in the English language? Nothing about Christianity is aimed at the intellectual though, this simply isn't its focus, it is a faith founded on devotion and service - bhakti and karma yoga respectively.

I agree, my statements do not include modern Christianity, but they do encompass many statements in the Bible. I merely look at them from a more universal perspective, and thus I see a supremely mystical statement in 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 where most Christians seem to see... uhh, I'm not entirely sure. I also see 1 John 4:8 as quite mystical, amongst many other statements. There are Catholic mystic schools which understand these things, but Christianity as a whole pays them little mind it seems, or at least fails to grasp them fully.

That said, I am quite against any organized religion, a common thread in my posts is that of rejecting group-think. Jesus was a Jewish rebel - he was killed because of this - you simply cannot organize a rebellion. It isn't even useful to try, for Christ has merely shared his own experience and understanding, you must find your own. I think this is where it can be useful to venture into other texts, for you can gain a better understanding when you see that all point to the same thing, you see what is actually conveyed rather than relying on a group to tell you how to understand it.

There is nothing wrong with any scripture, I uphold them all, what I cannot allow for myself is a conforming to the understandings of those which have no experienced themselves. How can you tell me what is intended when you do not have direct knowledge yourself? It makes no sense to me, and yet billion of people world wide frequent places that try to tell you how to worship the Ultimate. It is very necessary to start out in such a scenario, you must gain some familiarity, but this is like elementary school compared to what is available. Eventually, you must pursue your own career utilizing that education.

You will know when this is appropriate for yourself, it is not a guessing game. I only share what I know based on interfaith motivations, to truly have successful discussion here we must not focus on a particular tradition. To do this, sometimes it is appropriate to almost attack such a tradition, merely to show some absurdities within it and permit a disconnect that enables useful discussion. Of course, this can backfire in some cases because the other party becomes defensive, I only know what I say is what must be said and will be utilized as appropriate.
 
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