The Bible Code: What is it?

[bananabrain]

They get story lines for movies a lot of times from actual prophecies or theories

it does not therefore follow that that movie refers to this theory - logic fail.

As far as the counterpart dont you know your own history?

rather better than you do, i suspect.

The two staffs given to moses were ashera staffs which by the way is also associated with the medical symbol today.

the medical symbol is based on the caduceus of the greek deity apollo, not the nehushtan standard. as for your assertion about moses' staff, who says? merlin stone? there's nothing to suggest it in jewish texts; moses' staff turned into a "tanin" - this is not, in fact, a snake; in the context, especially given where he was at the time, it was almost certainly a crocodile.

Before the priesthood became more male dominated she (THE female counterpart in jewish texts called the jewishgoddess aka lady of the sea) was worshipped along side with GOD.

*sigh* i've read raphael patai as well as baring and cashford; this position is not news. the repudiation of the need to worship the asherah was part of the distinctiveness of prophetic judaism, despite the tendency of the populace to revert back to the surrounding canaanite idolatries. that is the *point*. it is quite simply not the case that judaism started off as asherah worship; this was a canaanite theological concept which was specifically prohibited under the "when you get to the promised land, don't copy the buggers that live there" rules. the fact that we know that people didn't heed these commandments is the subject of much of the post-exodus period and almost all of the first Temple period.

Everything needs an opposite.

except G!D. without G!D, there would be not even be a *concept* of "opposite". how can G!D be subject to such a law? i realise this is a bit sophisticated for some people - but then again, that is precisely the point.

Its the creative power and the flow of lifes energy.

which does not even require gender! the majority of life on the planet for most of its existence has not required gender. to G!D, it is a very recent and small development indeed.

The concept of an all male creator or some non sexual or combined sexual being is NOT reality.

with all due respect, you are not in a position to lecture anyone on what "reality" may or may not be. clearly we do not worshop an "all male creator", nor a "combined sexual being" - these concepts are not applicable to G!D. [pro]creative flows within the G!DHead are matters for recondite speculation by the mystically inclined; unless you have a great deal of familiarity with the complexities of lurianic kabbalah in particular, it is hard to see how you would know what we even think about this stuff. certainly we are not in a position to assert "this is reality".

Take a look around.

doing so will do you no good at all if you are in a cave situation, platonically speaking.

Human was created in the image, and if you know your own text the hebrew doesnt say GOD it says CREATOR(s) singular and plural at the same time, its two one GOD (male) and one GODDESS(female) that even though two are also one as well. Sometimes you can look around at the world and actually see heavenly realities as well instead of some made up concept about GOD

i think i know rather better than you do what it says in the hebrew and i can assure you it certainly does not mean what you think it means. G!D Is also called "HaRaHaMaN" (the All-Merciful, from the word rehem meaning "womb" - and G!D Doesn't have a womb) and, similarly "E-L ShaDaY" (from the word shadayim, meaning "breasts", likewise), as well as "HaMaQOM", the Place. all these are are Names. important, Divine Names, i grant you, but they are simply interfaces to the Divine, not the actual Divine. it is short-circuit, simplistic canaanite-peasant thinking that translates this into "god and mrs god". as for "made-up" - i think you have tremendous hutzpah to aim that at *me*, considering that i can provide textual backup for every single thing i've said, whereas *you* are referring me to a bruce willis film.

Jewish studies really needs to go back to wholeness.

oh, really? you're in a position to tell me about holistic thought within judaism? it's already been done, quite extensively as it happens.

I understand the protection of women part.

oh, so you can presumably refer to some of the halakhic structures that were introduced 2,000 years ago to protect women from exploitation in marriage, business and jurisprudence?

I worked at a jewish deli some years back and jewish men treat their wives very well.

*this* is your reasoning? generally speaking, jewish domestic abuse (which does unfortunately happen) rarely goes on in front of the deli counter. sheesh.

The thing is that GOD is totally equal with his counterpart but she is still the female half NOT the male half. There is more power in this than all male power or all female power. Its the power of creation itself. I think there is so much confusion with men thinking that if the female is equal she should be treated like a man. Interaction between men is different than interaction between men and women. When this is confused there are problems.

this is how the halakhah works, but it has very little to do with the G!DHead or the structure of Divine Emanations.

I understand ancient judaism, as well as other ancient religions.

i'm sorry, but you really, really, don't.

Its the distortions and misconeptions along the way that have developed in these religons that I dont understand. A lot of these misconcepts just are not realistic.

again, you're the judge of what's realistic? you're the judge of what's a distorion or a misconception? i'm sorry, who exactly conferred the semihah of prophethood upon you?

If you were to take the female out of the equation then the male would cease to exist.

yet, strangely, bacteria seem to flourish.

It works this way for everything to include elements. The reality is that all life including elements and including the creator(s) has one basic pattern.

if G!D Is G!D, G!D Is not subject to patterns. what you are describing is some kind of gnostic demiurge.

Two one male and one female that even though are two are also one as well. Nothing else has infinite life. This is the only constant flow of life energy. So I do understand a lot more than you think, but do you understand?

i understand that you think you know a lot more than you actually do.

Bananabrain... I truly wish that Kabbalah and Ari and Zohar had remained hidden.

oh, they *are* hidden - hidden in plain sight. all that people can see are the texts. kabbalah is passed on orally. mekubalim do not yell about the fact - the one or two that i have met you would really not notice in the street. you can learn a great deal about kabbalah from the texts, but unless you're learning it within its jewish context, you're not really learning it at all. i mean, can you learn kung fu from a book, or do you have to go to a teacher? what annoys me is people thinking they understand what it's all about when they have no idea, or they are being financially exploited by charlatans. i mean, fancy tattooing hebrew letters on yourself - only someone who didn't know anything about judaism would try such a thing. "kabbalah water" in your radiators? and most of all, the "eroticism" of kabbalistic imagery. and that's just a tax on the rich and gullible. how about all these people who think they're kabbalistic adepts, but don't know how to parse a sentence in aramaic? do me a feckin' favour.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[radarmark]

Having read your posts, did not think anymore was required. The elders had it right "do not read Revelation until you are established with a family and over 36." Ditto for all of the mystical Jewish schools.

The problem really is that the words are chicken scratches without the meaning, look at the danger of a Frank or Koresh. But nowdays everyone wants everything so quickly, without effort (isn't it just like the "Pi" or whatever).

I have yet to ever hear (or that matter read) a "Christian Kabbalist" who began to understand what he was talking about.

b'shalom.......bb.........radarmark

 

[Saltmeister]

Similarly I wish that the Apocalypse of St John never was revealed.

From what I have read, there is one major difference between the Apocalypse of St John and the Gentile Gospel of John -- that it contains Hebraisms and is therefore probably not written by the same author. One major theme in this book is idolatry. A person with a Jewish background is more likely to be concerned about idolatry than a Greek. Christianity today is influenced more by the Greek ideas in the NT than the "Hebraic" and "Judaic."

The Greek component of Christianity has been used countless times to dominate, oppress and persecute, especially since Constantine declared Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire. Ever since then, Christianity became a religion of Roman imperialism. Christianity was about turning the Gentiles away from idolatry, but when it became a religion of imperialism, it introduced a different kind of idolatry into Christianity -- that of state and military power.

I think the Apocalypse of St John is a warning to Christians not to be too attached to the Greek component of Christianity. For 1,600 years, the Greek component has been the instrument for domination, oppression and persecution intermingled with state power. This association with state power is a kind of idolatry. Many Christians today abhor their loss of power in society and many of them seek to hold on to that power -- like for example evangelical Christians in America. Evangelical Christianity is a kind of Christianity mixed with American patriotism.

The idolatry of religious imperialism is not unrelated to that of theology. The Greek component (theological) of Christianity is idolatrous to Jews, although some say it isn't idolatrous for Christians (Gentiles). "Assigning partners to God" (shittuf or shirk) is forbidden to Jews because it may lead to idolatry, not because it is really idolatry. The theology by itself is okay, but when you combine it with religious imperialism, with social domination, persecution and oppression, it goes from being just a "literal idolatry" to "real idolatry." If the theology is promoted and used to dominate and oppress those who do not adhere to that theology, it becomes "real idolatry."

Consider that the theology itself has no social value or benefits. It does not help you to become a better person. You must have the intrinsic desire to be a good person. Yet the theology is promoted despite the lack of social value or benefits. This is idolatry. Christian theology has been used countless times in the last 2,000 years to dominate, persecute and oppress others. I think there is a good reason to believe that the anti-Christ will do the same. The anti-Christ will try to use Christian theology itself to lead millions of Christians into idolatry. That gives us a good reason to resist the Greek influences in the NT.

I think there is a good reason why the Apocalypse of St John contains lots of Hebraisms. It's because whoever wrote it is not the kind of person who would look kindly on Christianity today. The Mother of Harlots and the little abominations collectively represent most of Christendom today. Let us not forget that Christianity started as a syncretism of Judaism and Hellenism. Tertullian himself once asked, "what does Athens have to do with Jerusalem?" The Apocalypse of St John tells us to "get out of Babylon." (Revelation 18:4) Babylon is Christendom itself. When the anti-Christ comes, we must get ready to leave Christendom (and maybe even Christianity itself).

If Jews avoid shittuf/shirk because it may lead to idolatry, it's because shittuf/shirk ultimately does lead or has led to idolatry (not because it is idolatry) -- especially when the anti-Christ is around. We are relatively safe now and have been relatively safe for 2,000 years (from the worst kind of idolatry) because the anti-Christ had not yet come.

The last 2,000 years was called "Times of the Gentiles" for a reason. It's our time to repent. The Jews were already safe. God turned His attention to us Gentiles. Christianity is a temporary, not an official or "true" religion. It was a religion introduced for "our" time.

They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:24

The NT may give the impression that it is "the truth," but it is only for the benefit of those who live before the anti-Christ. "Christianity" was not a "lie." It has simply been a "convenient truth" for the last 2,000 years. The truth was too complicated, esoteric or elusive for the common man so a dumbed-down version was propagated. The "real truth" has been hidden from us. The book of the Apocalypse is a hint.

Isn't it ironic that two books (Gospel of John and Apocalypse/Revelation) are attributed to the same author and yet seem to come from two different thought systems? One promotes the Greek. The other promotes the Hebraic/Judaic.

This is the Sign of Jonah. Jonah preached to the people of Nineveh (they were Gentiles) and they repented. Jesus said that no sign or miracle would be given to an "evil and adulterous generation" except the sign of Jonah (Matthew 16:4). It is a sign that has taken 2,000 years to manifest and God may yet spare us like He did with Nineveh. The Sign of Jonah was not Jesus' three days and three nights in the tomb because it simply doesn't add up to three days and nights.

Should the Apocalypse of St John not have been revealed? I think not if it is so important for us to avoid the great idolatry that will take place when the anti-Christ comes. Like Jonah warning Nineveh of its coming destruction, this book is a warning to Christians of their own destruction.

The Old Testament contains plenty of examples of God punishing people for oppressing, persecuting and dominating. He punished the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Edomites, etc. The irony is that God often gave these people power in order to punish Israel and Judah. So why won't God punish Christendom/Christianity itself? Clearly, this favour is only temporary.

In Romans 11:20, Paul says "do not be arrogant, but be afraid." That is another warning in the NT -- a warning to Christians. Sooner or later, God gets around to punishing everyone for the wrong they do. Nebuchadnezzar was driven out of his palace for bragging, when it was God who gave him all that power. The Book of the Apocalypse is about God punishing Christians just before the messianic age. It is only by the mercy of God that we have not been punished yet. God will use the anti-Christ to punish us.

The Abrahamic God is a "two-faced God." He loves, but He also punishes. He can be gentle, but also tough. He loved the Jewish people for a long time, then He punished them. He has loved Christians for 2,000 years .... and I hate to say this, but I think we have it coming. What goes up has to come down.

Again, I ask, should the Apocalypse of St John not have been revealed?

 

[donnann]

it does not therefore follow that that movie refers to this theory - logic fail.


rather better than you do, i suspect.


the medical symbol is based on the caduceus of the greek deity apollo, not the nehushtan standard. as for your assertion about moses' staff, who says? merlin stone? there's nothing to suggest it in jewish texts; moses' staff turned into a "tanin" - this is not, in fact, a snake; in the context, especially given where he was at the time, it was almost certainly a crocodile.


*sigh* i've read raphael patai as well as baring and cashford; this position is not news. the repudiation of the need to worship the asherah was part of the distinctiveness of prophetic judaism, despite the tendency of the populace to revert back to the surrounding canaanite idolatries. that is the *point*. it is quite simply not the case that judaism started off as asherah worship; this was a canaanite theological concept which was specifically prohibited under the "when you get to the promised land, don't copy the buggers that live there" rules. the fact that we know that people didn't heed these commandments is the subject of much of the post-exodus period and almost all of the first Temple period.


except G!D. without G!D, there would be not even be a *concept* of "opposite". how can G!D be subject to such a law? i realise this is a bit sophisticated for some people - but then again, that is precisely the point.


which does not even require gender! the majority of life on the planet for most of its existence has not required gender. to G!D, it is a very recent and small development indeed.


with all due respect, you are not in a position to lecture anyone on what "reality" may or may not be. clearly we do not worshop an "all male creator", nor a "combined sexual being" - these concepts are not applicable to G!D. [pro]creative flows within the G!DHead are matters for recondite speculation by the mystically inclined; unless you have a great deal of familiarity with the complexities of lurianic kabbalah in particular, it is hard to see how you would know what we even think about this stuff. certainly we are not in a position to assert "this is reality".


doing so will do you no good at all if you are in a cave situation, platonically speaking.


i think i know rather better than you do what it says in the hebrew and i can assure you it certainly does not mean what you think it means. G!D Is also called "HaRaHaMaN" (the All-Merciful, from the word rehem meaning "womb" - and G!D Doesn't have a womb) and, similarly "E-L ShaDaY" (from the word shadayim, meaning "breasts", likewise), as well as "HaMaQOM", the Place. all these are are Names. important, Divine Names, i grant you, but they are simply interfaces to the Divine, not the actual Divine. it is short-circuit, simplistic canaanite-peasant thinking that translates this into "god and mrs god". as for "made-up" - i think you have tremendous hutzpah to aim that at *me*, considering that i can provide textual backup for every single thing i've said, whereas *you* are referring me to a bruce willis film.


oh, really? you're in a position to tell me about holistic thought within judaism? it's already been done, quite extensively as it happens.


oh, so you can presumably refer to some of the halakhic structures that were introduced 2,000 years ago to protect women from exploitation in marriage, business and jurisprudence?


*this* is your reasoning? generally speaking, jewish domestic abuse (which does unfortunately happen) rarely goes on in front of the deli counter. sheesh.


this is how the halakhah works, but it has very little to do with the G!DHead or the structure of Divine Emanations.


i'm sorry, but you really, really, don't.


again, you're the judge of what's realistic? you're the judge of what's a distorion or a misconception? i'm sorry, who exactly conferred the semihah of prophethood upon you?


yet, strangely, bacteria seem to flourish.


if G!D Is G!D, G!D Is not subject to patterns. what you are describing is some kind of gnostic demiurge.


i understand that you think you know a lot more than you actually do.


oh, they *are* hidden - hidden in plain sight. all that people can see are the texts. kabbalah is passed on orally. mekubalim do not yell about the fact - the one or two that i have met you would really not notice in the street. you can learn a great deal about kabbalah from the texts, but unless you're learning it within its jewish context, you're not really learning it at all. i mean, can you learn kung fu from a book, or do you have to go to a teacher? what annoys me is people thinking they understand what it's all about when they have no idea, or they are being financially exploited by charlatans. i mean, fancy tattooing hebrew letters on yourself - only someone who didn't know anything about judaism would try such a thing. "kabbalah water" in your radiators? and most of all, the "eroticism" of kabbalistic imagery. and that's just a tax on the rich and gullible. how about all these people who think they're kabbalistic adepts, but don't know how to parse a sentence in aramaic? do me a feckin' favour.

b'shalom

bananabrain

I understand a lot more than you know not only about divine realities but human ones as well. Believe me , place the female element where it belongs and thats the most powerful force that exists , otherwise , yes like in the movie the fifth element you have extinction.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

I understand a lot more than you know not only about divine realities but human ones as well. Believe me , place the female element where it belongs and thats the most powerful force that exists , otherwise , yes like in the movie the fifth element you have extinction.

This is very frustrating to me, BB just brought up about 20 good points and you answer that with a 'trust me', and yet another reference to the fifth element. I'm loosing interest in discussing with you, quickly. Why don't you take time and go through some of the things he has stated?

 

[donnann]

I understand a lot more than you know not only about divine realities but human ones as well. Believe me , place the female element where it belongs and thats the most powerful force that exists , otherwise , yes like in the movie the fifth element you have extinction.

Hebrew Goddess; Asherah, the Shekinah, consort of Yahweh

Heres some jewish history on the goddess since we live in a time where women have rights and everyone has basic human rights according to international law and US law I think its safe to talk about it now.

 

[donnann]

This is very frustrating to me, BB just brought up about 20 good points and you answer that with a 'trust me', and yet another reference to the fifth element. I'm loosing interest in discussing with you, quickly. Why don't you take time and go through some of the things he has stated?

I posted a site with some history that talks about the points I have been making. If you are a female this should definately be of interest of you. Your not just a part of a male your literally the other half of the whole thing.

 

[donnann]

Hebrew Goddess; Asherah, the Shekinah, consort of Yahweh

Heres some jewish history on the goddess since we live in a time where women have rights and everyone has basic human rights according to international law and US law I think its safe to talk about it now.

I do however believe that the holy father would protect his daughter as well as the true husband when shes being ganged up on by a bunch of men along with subservient women to them.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

I posted a site with some history that talks about the points I have been making. If you are a female this should definately be of interest of you. Your not just a part of a male your literally the other half of the whole thing.

I will let bananabrain comment on the text as I know little about the origins and impact of what the site talks about. As I'm not religious and don't believe in a god or gods and thus never had any theories concerning the sex of this/these beings, I don't feel it has effected my self worth, whether I'm male or female. Thanks for the thought though, I appreciate it.

 

[Saltmeister]

Having read your posts, did not think anymore was required. The elders had it right "do not read Revelation until you are established with a family and over 36." Ditto for all of the mystical Jewish schools.

The problem really is that the words are chicken scratches without the meaning, look at the danger of a Frank or Koresh. But nowdays everyone wants everything so quickly, without effort (isn't it just like the "Pi" or whatever).

I don't think anyone should start preaching about the New Testament in general without some basic understanding of what the Second Temple world was like using information external to the NT itself. Reading it is fine, but forming strong opinions without background information is what leads to some very unhelpful ideology coming mostly from Protestant Christianity. Biblical Christianity without good hermeneutics is a misguided ideology. The Five Solas are a poor hermeneutic.

 

[Dream]

Donnan, after many years of living with myself know that I'm very stubbborn. I'm not sure if I can trust the whole blueprint thing, and could be unable to reach out to what you're talking about however.... Since you are clearly a person of many interests and have high curiosity I wonder if you've heard of Lovingkindness meditation? The things you are saying somehow made it come up in my mind. Any idea if there is a connection?

 

[donnann]

Donnan, after many years of living with myself know that I'm very stubbborn. I'm not sure if I can trust the whole blueprint thing, and could be unable to reach out to what you're talking about however.... Since you are clearly a person of many interests and have high curiosity I wonder if you've heard of Lovingkindness meditation? The things you are saying somehow made it come up in my mind. Any idea if there is a connection?

That sounds interesting. Is the purpose to manifest the loving kindness you have inside on the outside?

 

[Dream]

That sounds interesting. Is the purpose to manifest the loving kindness you have inside on the outside?

I do not know its purpose but just feel it could be related. I don't think it is a meditation in the popular Star Wars sense of the word meditation.

 

[donnann]

I do not know its purpose but just feel it could be related. I don't think it is a meditation in the popular Star Wars sense of the word meditation.

Maybe it is kinda like star wars love is an energy ....meditation may be a way of activating so you can use the force

 

[Saltmeister]

Maybe it is kinda like star wars love is an energy ....meditation may be a way of activating so you can use the force

May the Force be with you, donna

 

[donnann]

May the Force be with you, donna

 

[donnann]

Also may the force be with you also

 

[bananabrain]

Heres some jewish history on the goddess

to be precise - this is some editorialising of the patai material which, i think it is fair to say, can easily be interpreted in accordance with our views on things. let's take a look:

Her sacred pillars or poles once stood right beside Yahweh's altar, embracing it.

they were certainly introduced into the first Temple sanctuary, a fact which is complained about both explicitly and euphemistically by the prophets. however, this does not prove that they had *always been there* - rather it fits our narrative that the people "went astray after the gods of the canaanites". so, this phrasing is suggestive and tendentious.

Moses and Aaron both carried one of these Asherah "poles" as a sacred staff of power.

this is assertion. there is no source for this, therefore it is an editorial leap of logic, explained perhaps by the fact that the "staff" of moses and aaron carried "staffs" ("MaTeH") these were "pillars" ("MaSeBaH") - furthermore, where an "asherah pole" is mentioned, these are specifically referred to as an "ASheRaH". in other words, it's an entirely different word in hebrew.

Daughter of Zion, a term found numerous times in the Old Testament, was perhaps a term for a priestess of Asherah.

"perhaps"? i don't think patai makes any such claim. you might be on safer ground were you to equate this with a "QaDeShaH" or temple prostitute.

As the "official" state worship became increasingly male oriented

at no point is it stated that there are female priestesses - although you don't seem to notice the female prophetesses of this so-called "male" worshop, such as deborah or huldah. numerous criticisms are made of attempts by both male and female worshippers from the royal family down to the regular worshippers to introduce idolatrous elements into the Temple cultus, sometimes successfully, sometimes not - but nobody suggests that this was once a *reputable* part of jewish worship, only that it was a regular flirtation with or wholesale slide into the surrounding canaanite idolatries.

Exercise 5: (Extra Credit) If you're really brave, not worried about being called a "heretic Jezebel," try making some Asherah cakes. Add raisins if you can! "Even as the LORD loves the people of Israel, though they turn to other gods and are fond of raisin cakes." Hosea 3:1 The commentary for that verse says: "Raisin cakes: offerings to the fertility goddess Ashera, the female counterpart of Baal; cf Jer 7:18; 44:19." The name Baal means simply Lord or husband. In modern hebrew, the word for husband is baal, used by millions of Israel wives to refer to their hubbies.

yes, but they're not talking about G!D, are they? the idolatrous deity ba'al (it means "master", not husband, if you're going to take a feminist approach) is one thing and the Divine we worship is another - viz. elijah's famous challenge in 1 kings 18:

"How long will you hesitate between two opinions? If HaShem Is G!D, follow; but if it is Ba'al, follow him instead." But the people did not answer him a word."

obviously, elijah is clear on the difference, but "the people" are not.

her cult was matronized by Jezebel who, supposedly, imported it from her native Phoenician homeland.

if you're going to suggest otherwise (there is ample evidence of jezebel's proclivities available from phoenician archaeology) you'll need to do better than "supposedly"

Linguistically, Margalit claims (1989), 'Asherah' signifies '[she] who walks behind', displaying a prototypic if divine attitude that befits a wife

ah, yes, it's so empowering of women.

As Dr. Patai states, "... it would be strange if the Hebrew-Jewish religion, which flourished for centuries in a region of intensive goddess cults, had remained immune to them."

indeed it would, which is why our texts testify that we did not!

And then there's the matter of the Cherubim that sat atop the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies. Fashioned by Phoenician craftsmen for Solomon and Ahab, an ivory tablet shows two winged females facing each other. And one tablet shows male and female members of the Cherubim embracing in an explicitly sexual position that embarrassed later Jewish historians ... and even the pagans were shocked when they saw it for the first time. [The Star of David, two triangles "embracing" became the coded symbol for God & Goddess locked in a "creating" posture....!]

i note that this does not, in fact, relate to "asherah" in the patai book - the mystery of the keruvim "facing each other" was kept secret - because people would do exactly what you've just done! in the talmudic period, however, this became widely known, but was not as dangerous any more, because asherah worship had died out by then.

This cult of the feminine goddess, though often repressed, remained a part of the faith of the Jewish people.

or, to put it a more productive way, was eventually understood correctly, finding its proper place in the more recondite mysteries of jewish esotericism, where short-circuit thinking and the proper safeguards would prevent its perverting into idolatrous cults.

since we live in a time where women have rights and everyone has basic human rights according to international law and US law I think its safe to talk about it now.

you mean, you can't be massacred by "rabid yahwists"? look, if it's a matter of raisin cakes, go right ahead if you must; but if you're not going to a temple and making yourself available for sex with any male worshippers for a month every year (ooh, how very feminist that is - there was no "women's rights" that prevented you having to do that whether you liked it or not), or indulging in human sacrifices, you're not indulging in the sort of idolatry we object to - not that we think attempts to reconstruct or recreate the worship of ba'al and asherah are anything but bizarre, misconceived and somewhat pathetic. i don't believe ba'al has preserved his worshippers for 3,000 years, or done anything very much worth worshipping. this is a huge, huge waste of time just as it was back in bronze age canaan. on the other hand, the contribution of judaism to concepts of women's rights and human rights is a matter of considerable record.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[donnann]

to be precise - this is some editorialising of the patai material which, i think it is fair to say, can easily be interpreted in accordance with our views on things. let's take a look:


they were certainly introduced into the first Temple sanctuary, a fact which is complained about both explicitly and euphemistically by the prophets. however, this does not prove that they had *always been there* - rather it fits our narrative that the people "went astray after the gods of the canaanites". so, this phrasing is suggestive and tendentious.


this is assertion. there is no source for this, therefore it is an editorial leap of logic, explained perhaps by the fact that the "staff" of moses and aaron carried "staffs" ("MaTeH") these were "pillars" ("MaSeBaH") - furthermore, where an "asherah pole" is mentioned, these are specifically referred to as an "ASheRaH". in other words, it's an entirely different word in hebrew.


"perhaps"? i don't think patai makes any such claim. you might be on safer ground were you to equate this with a "QaDeShaH" or temple prostitute.


at no point is it stated that there are female priestesses - although you don't seem to notice the female prophetesses of this so-called "male" worshop, such as deborah or huldah. numerous criticisms are made of attempts by both male and female worshippers from the royal family down to the regular worshippers to introduce idolatrous elements into the Temple cultus, sometimes successfully, sometimes not - but nobody suggests that this was once a *reputable* part of jewish worship, only that it was a regular flirtation with or wholesale slide into the surrounding canaanite idolatries.


yes, but they're not talking about G!D, are they? the idolatrous deity ba'al (it means "master", not husband, if you're going to take a feminist approach) is one thing and the Divine we worship is another - viz. elijah's famous challenge in 1 kings 18:


obviously, elijah is clear on the difference, but "the people" are not.


if you're going to suggest otherwise (there is ample evidence of jezebel's proclivities available from phoenician archaeology) you'll need to do better than "supposedly"


ah, yes, it's so empowering of women.


indeed it would, which is why our texts testify that we did not!


i note that this does not, in fact, relate to "asherah" in the patai book - the mystery of the keruvim "facing each other" was kept secret - because people would do exactly what you've just done! in the talmudic period, however, this became widely known, but was not as dangerous any more, because asherah worship had died out by then.


or, to put it a more productive way, was eventually understood correctly, finding its proper place in the more recondite mysteries of jewish esotericism, where short-circuit thinking and the proper safeguards would prevent its perverting into idolatrous cults.


you mean, you can't be massacred by "rabid yahwists"? look, if it's a matter of raisin cakes, go right ahead if you must; but if you're not going to a temple and making yourself available for sex with any male worshippers for a month every year (ooh, how very feminist that is - there was no "women's rights" that prevented you having to do that whether you liked it or not), or indulging in human sacrifices, you're not indulging in the sort of idolatry we object to - not that we think attempts to reconstruct or recreate the worship of ba'al and asherah are anything but bizarre, misconceived and somewhat pathetic. i don't believe ba'al has preserved his worshippers for 3,000 years, or done anything very much worth worshipping. this is a huge, huge waste of time just as it was back in bronze age canaan. on the other hand, the contribution of judaism to concepts of women's rights and human rights is a matter of considerable record.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Heres the thing the female half always existed and if you totally split it everyone would die.

 

[bananabrain]

there is no need to quote my entire post to say that; you've "got a high iq" so you ought to be able to work out how to make quotes work. besides, nobody's talking about splitting anything. i really don't think you understand what i'm saying.

b'shalom

bananabrain