Rapture reality or not?

[bananabrain]

Re: Ripples

My belief on the rapture is that no one that is going would be driving a bus at the time so that something like that wouldnt happen. Also its not going to be any one people or any one religion that will go but a mixture of people from all relgions and peoples that are all sealed for this event showing that its not about what religion or ethnic background you are but rather knowing who the creator truely is.

that's all very nice, not restricting it to born-again christians (that's unusual at least) but hang on, there's something practical about this too.

you're saying that nobody in a safety-critical job can be saved? you're saying that the rapture will happen at such a time that no saved heart surgeon is operating, or saved airline pilot flying a passenger jet, or no saved stevedore is moving a shipping crate in midair?

i know G!D Can Do anything, but we'd all really have to stop doing whatever we were doing at the right moment.

hmmmmmmm.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[radarmark]

The rapture, like the tribulation is a late (1800s) idea from the Irving-Darby-MacDonald unholy triad. It has very little historical predicessors (maybe the Witch-burning Mather clan). For 1700 years of pretty intense Christian debates, the doctrine was never fully devloped until the 1830s (by Darby). Okay, there are "precursors", searached for and "found" by various 19th and 20th century "Bilble Scholars". The non-Nicean, Orthodox, Catholic, pre -1800 Mainstream Protestant, and pre-1800 primativist curches have at no time had this as part of their creed.

What is really weird is that while most rapture-tribulation believers get really angry and upset with "Purgatory" as a non-canonical addition, they apply that criteria to themselves.

Pax et amore vincumt omnia.

 

[donnann]

The rapture, like the tribulation is a late (1800s) idea from the Irving-Darby-MacDonald unholy triad. It has very little historical predicessors (maybe the Witch-burning Mather clan). For 1700 years of pretty intense Christian debates, the doctrine was never fully devloped until the 1830s (by Darby). Okay, there are "precursors", searached for and "found" by various 19th and 20th century "Bilble Scholars". The non-Nicean, Orthodox, Catholic, pre -1800 Mainstream Protestant, and pre-1800 primativist curches have at no time had this as part of their creed.

What is really weird is that while most rapture-tribulation believers get really angry and upset with "Purgatory" as a non-canonical addition, they apply that criteria to themselves.

Pax et amore vincumt omnia.

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

 

[donnann]

The rapture, like the tribulation is a late (1800s) idea from the Irving-Darby-MacDonald unholy triad. It has very little historical predicessors (maybe the Witch-burning Mather clan). For 1700 years of pretty intense Christian debates, the doctrine was never fully devloped until the 1830s (by Darby). Okay, there are "precursors", searached for and "found" by various 19th and 20th century "Bilble Scholars". The non-Nicean, Orthodox, Catholic, pre -1800 Mainstream Protestant, and pre-1800 primativist curches have at no time had this as part of their creed.

What is really weird is that while most rapture-tribulation believers get really angry and upset with "Purgatory" as a non-canonical addition, they apply that criteria to themselves.

Pax et amore vincumt omnia.

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

 

[Gatekeeper]

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

To be grounded in truth (Reality/life) and to be grounded in Love (The Spirit of life/God) seems more reasonable than ascending into the clouds. I think the rapture is simply the gathering of God's children, whereby God's children are in unity of Spirit, grounded in reality and in love. The veil you mentioned in another post could very well represent our beliefs in the supernatural, such as being taken up in the clouds literally.


[youtube]wDZFf0pm0SE[/youtube]


These are my thoughts, anyway .......

 

[radarmark]

You are pretty close, Gatekeeper. It is the literalism and the inerrant faith in what we are told or have read that is the veil to be lifted (at least that is what I think). The odds that a belief so recent (like 19th century rapture or 20th century fundamentalism) given the wide spectrum of Christian or near-Christian beliefs over the last 20 centuries just doesn't pass my sanity check.

Like you said, if one looks at it symbolically it mnakes so much more sense.


Pax et amore vincunt omnia.... radarmark

 

[william b]

The rapture makes no sense. The Bible needed an exciting climax so they came up with a story about Jesus coming back and kicking evil's butt.

 

[donnann]

The rapture makes no sense. The Bible needed an exciting climax so they came up with a story about Jesus coming back and kicking evil's butt.

Lol cute way of putting it. It does make sense to those who know about it. Doesnt every story with a good ending have a climax? What is evil. To me its more like a viral consciousness not a living thing.

 

[donnann]

Re: Ripples

that's all very nice, not restricting it to born-again christians (that's unusual at least) but hang on, there's something practical about this too.

you're saying that nobody in a safety-critical job can be saved? you're saying that the rapture will happen at such a time that no saved heart surgeon is operating, or saved airline pilot flying a passenger jet, or no saved stevedore is moving a shipping crate in midair?

i know G!D Can Do anything, but we'd all really have to stop doing whatever we were doing at the right moment.

hmmmmmmm.

b'shalom

bananabrain

No eventually everyone will be there but the question is why isnt everyone now. When you find the answer to that one you have the answer to the reason why not everyone will go when this happens. I am simply saying that god will make sure those who go wont be controlling say a bus at the time.

 

[Gatekeeper]

You are pretty close, Gatekeeper. It is the literalism and the inerrant faith in what we are told or have read that is the veil to be lifted (at least that is what I think). The odds that a belief so recent (like 19th century rapture or 20th century fundamentalism) given the wide spectrum of Christian or near-Christian beliefs over the last 20 centuries just doesn't pass my sanity check.

Like you said, if one looks at it symbolically it mnakes so much more sense.


Pax et amore vincunt omnia.... radarmark

An empty cup is a good place to start over, eh? We are filled with so much garbage from the time we are infants to adults that it is extremely difficult to start over and let the new wine fill us til it overflows unto others.

 

[donnann]

An empty cup is a good place to start over, eh? We are filled with so much garbage from the time we are infants to adults that it is extremely difficult to start over and let the new wine fill us til it overflows unto others.

I believe the garbage is just a skin thing but like you go to the bathroom you periodically get rid of the waste.

 

[Gatekeeper]

I believe the garbage is just a skin thing but like you go to the bathroom you periodically get rid of the waste.

So you literally believe that our literal flesh is garbage? We are said to represent Christ's body, so I'll have to disagree that our earthen vessels are garbage, but rather a part of the vine which Jesus represented.

 

[donnann]

So you literally believe that our literal flesh is garbage? We are said to represent Christ's body, so I'll have to disagree that our earthen vessels are garbage, but rather a part of the vine which Jesus represented.

No but the bad things go out of it like waste. Sorry you misunderstood me. But how do you represent christs body?

 

[Gatekeeper]

No but the bad things go out of it like waste. Sorry you misunderstood me. But how do you represent christs body?

I believe that the body of Christ (Humanity) make up the vine that Jesus represented. Only, the branches that do not abide in the same love Jesus himself abode in wither away and are purged. To me this suggests that Gods love is indeed our source of life, our living waters, as Jesus was graced with Gods love. We are but mere branches of a greater vine called humanity (The body of Christ).


Jesus tells us that he who abides in his love are those who keep his commandments -- To love God (Our source of life) and each other as we love ourselves. This is what it means to be a part of His body. If we neglect Gods love, we are soon cast away from the vine, from those alive in Christ, and we wither away (Die Spiritually).


I believe that all men are born alive in the vine as branches, but also that the state of our world, our pursuit for riches and pleasures soon hinder our growth, seemingly removing us from our source of life altogether. In short, to be a part of Christ's body, we must be filled with and abide in the love of God. Otherwise we are removed from the body (The vine) spiritually.

 

[donnann]

I believe that the body of Christ (Humanity) make up the vine that Jesus represented. Only, the branches that do not abide in the same love Jesus himself abode in wither away and are purged. To me this suggests that Gods love is indeed our source of life, our living waters, as Jesus was graced with Gods love. We are but mere branches of a greater vine called humanity (The body of Christ).


Jesus tells us that he who abides in his love are those who keep his commandments -- To love God (Our source of life) and each other as we love ourselves. This is what it means to be a part of His body. If we neglect Gods love, we are soon cast away from the vine, from those alive in Christ, and we wither away (Die Spiritually).


I believe that all men are born alive in the vine as branches, but also that the state of our world, our pursuit for riches and pleasures soon hinder our growth, seemingly removing us from our source of life altogether. In short, to be a part of Christ's body, we must be filled with and abide in the love of God. Otherwise we are removed from the body (The vine) spiritually.

So being reborn would be like the vine sprouting a new leaf?

 

[Gatekeeper]

So being reborn would be like the vine sprouting a new leaf?

I like that! It insinuates that we have been changed and have started anew. We are born innocent, but the world we live in is so corrupt that we often become corrupt ourselves. To be reborn is to turn over a new leaf; it is a new beginning, and a new life.

 

[donnann]

I like that! It insinuates that we have been changed and have started anew. We are born innocent, but the world we live in is so corrupt that we often become corrupt ourselves. To be reborn is to turn over a new leaf; it is a new beginning, and a new life.

Yes but sometimes when you do that the opposing thing attacks you like a virus only attacks a healthy host. There is stregnth in numbers though.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Yes but sometimes when you do that the opposing thing attacks you like a virus only attacks a healthy host. There is stregnth in numbers though.

We will always have trials to face, but we are strengthened by the Spirit of life (The Father/God) who dwells in us, just as Jesus was strengthened by the Father who dwelled in him. But yes, there is strength in numbers also, and I believe it will be those who have been "raptured" (Born again) that will free creation from its bondage to corruption. This is the destiny of humanity (IMO).

 

[donnann]

We will always have trials to face, but we are strengthened by the Spirit of life (The Father/God) who dwells in us, just as Jesus was strengthened by the Father who dwelled in him. But yes, there is strength in numbers also, and I believe it will be those who have been "raptured" (Born again) that will free creation from its bondage to corruption. This is the destiny of humanity (IMO).

Well I dont disagree with you on that point. So maybe the body of christ should start doing something as a group to change things?

 

[Gatekeeper]

Well I dont disagree with you on that point. So maybe the body of christ should start doing something as a group to change things?

That would be awesome! How do we get the children of life organized and working together towards the goal at hand? Do we simply reach out in our communities or do we go bigger? I might suggest that there are children of life in most every community, which if they all reached out locally much change would be accomplished.


I guess another question would be; how do we go about making change and creating a better world even in our own communities? I think we all have different abilities, so perhaps using our unique abilities to make change would be ideal. Paul suggested that each member of the body has a unique purpose, so by using our unique abilities much can be accomplished as a body, as a group.


Perhaps extending love towards others would be a good place to begin also, as in helping those who are in need, comforting the wounded in heart, and leading the week and weary gently into Gods grace, minus the religious luggage. Keep it simple and show others the power of love in other words.