Prayer, Magick, Spells etc, whats the difference ?

[NiceCupOfTea]

Prayer, magick, spells, witchcraft etc, are these all labels for the same thing the power of belief ?

 

[wil]

If one understands the only person one can change is themselves, the only way to change a situation is to change your perception....then, yes.

If one believes that certain ways of holding your tongue and burning incense and chanting phrases will incite the patron of lost things to find something, or make another well, or raise the dead or stop a flood or provide a bumper crop....then, yes as well.

 

[radarmark]

My left-brain says "this is crazy".
My right-brain says "this is right".

So my whole being says "It is crazy right!"

Pax et amore vincunt omnia... radarmark

 

[IowaGuy]

Prayer, magick, spells, witchcraft etc, are these all labels for the same thing the power of belief ?

I think of them as a type of self-fulfilling prophecy for those that believe in them, on either the doing or receiving end...

 

[Dream]

I'm not sure that belief is really what we are talking about. Maybe there are similarities but sometimes people pray without believing. With prayer there is an awareness that someone is listening or may be listening and respond. Spells seem to require a certain state of mind (that you are casting a spell) that prayers don't always, and they are harder to define. Spells are much more broad. For some people putting on shoes is a spell. Pouring ketchup can be a spell, or having sex can be a spell.

 

[IowaGuy]

I'm not sure that belief is really what we are talking about. Maybe there are similarities but sometimes people pray without believing.

Can you give an example where someone prays without believing? What would be the point of that? Isn't that just talking to yourself? Or if someone prays without believing is that really just another form of meditation?

I'm no expert on witchcraft, but it seems to me that all these examples require "belief" in order to have any perceived effect by those participating in them; either those doing the prayer/spell/magick, or those on the receiving end of the prayer/spell/magick.

Everyone I know that prays believes someone/something is listening and may respond. This is what creates the placebo effect/self-fulfilling prophecy, IMHO. This self-fulfilling prophecy can also work on the receiving end, i.e. if someone believes that others are praying on their behalf.

If they didn't believe then what is the benefit of prayer? I don't believe in prayer/deities, so when my sister tells me she's praying for me I don't attribute any perceived benefits in my life to her praying; while a fellow church member of hers might.

What do you see as the difference between meditation and prayer from a believer's standpoint and non-believer's standpoint?

 

[radarmark]

"Maybe there are similarities but sometimes people pray without believing. With prayer there is an awareness that someone is listening or may be listening and respond." Dream.

If you are defining prayer in the second sentence, the first one is a contradiction.

If one is aware, this implies belief if aware means "conscious of".

If it is prayer and not meditation or comptemplation, then one must be aware (which implies belief) IMHO. Like IG says, praying w/o belief (specifically in something to listen and perhaps respond) is either talking to yourself (I did that a lot in chrch as a kid, lo these many years ago, or some form of meditation or comptemplation.

So "prayer, magick, spells, witchcraft etc" are a form of the power of belief if yoiu use "prayer" the way I think you mean to. Meditation and comptemplation are something else I think.

 

[wil]

Can you give an example where someone prays without believing? What would be the point of that? Isn't that just talking to yourself? Or if someone prays without believing is that really just another form of meditation?

Our thoughts are prayers
And we are always praying
Our thoughts are prayers
Take charge of what your saying

Seek a higher consciousness
A state of peacefulness
As every thought becomes a prayer



What you think about you bring about.....



Objects in mind appear in kind.....


If I can conceive it and believe it, I can achieve it.

 

[Dream]

Can you give an example where someone prays without believing? What would be the point of that? Isn't that just talking to yourself? Or if someone prays without believing is that really just another form of meditation?

Praying without believing can work --- if there is someone listening. People can pray without believing and then become believers as a result, or not. It happens. I think in modern times it has become problematic to tell congregants that belief is necessary for them to pray. The meanings of words have changed so that now belief (instead of faithfulness) has become a matter of obedience, which is backwards.

I'm no expert on witchcraft, but it seems to me that all these examples require "belief" in order to have any perceived effect by those participating in them; either those doing the prayer/spell/magick, or those on the receiving end of the prayer/spell/magick.

'Prayer' incorporates more than 'Believing prayer'. Sometimes a prayer isn't a request at all but merely being thankful and not necessarily to a divine being. It doesn't preclude a non-response though.

Everyone I know that prays believes someone/something is listening and may respond. This is what creates the placebo effect/self-fulfilling prophecy, IMHO. This self-fulfilling prophecy can also work on the receiving end, i.e. if someone believes that others are praying on their behalf.

You find solid ground in saying there is placebo effect. Yes, there can be that effect and I've seen it. Not all prayers are believing prayers and perhaps not all believing prayers have a placebo effect.

If they didn't believe then what is the benefit of prayer? I don't believe in prayer/deities, so when my sister tells me she's praying for me I don't attribute any perceived benefits in my life to her praying; while a fellow church member of hers might.

If you do not believe yet you pray, then there is the possibility for someone to answer the prayer -- or not. That is the 'Benefit' of praying without believing. Believing while you pray is a different kind of prayer.

What do you see as the difference between meditation and prayer from a believer's standpoint and non-believer's standpoint?

I'm not a college graduate, but here is what I think at the moment.

Let me bring up the subject of the very dangerous modern worship service. When Hypnosis became a serious subject, it was found that the simplest hypnotic trigger to induce hypnosis was asking a subject to focus their eyes for several minutes.* This made the eye muscles tired and opened the way for hypnotic patter, a lulling of the concious mind through repetitive and comforting words. There were other triggers and the subject has since deepened. I think this eye-strain trigger has been used successfully by shrewd businessmen and women to build strong cultlike church meetings in which congregants must keep their attention focused forward for long periods. In such meetings the 'Worship leader' will use patter, like repeately saying 'Amen' or 'Praise the Lord' and so on while the members are encouraged to hold their arms up in the air (very tiring and not necessarily Biblical even). The members are encouraged to relax and to drive out their random thoughts. This does, for certain, open many members to hypnotic suggestion. I would call this neither prayer nor meditation. Would you say that your sister is a member of one of these types of meetings?

*see page 42 of Hypnotism By John Milne Bramwell written in 1852 and available on google books free of charge.

 

[IowaGuy]

Sometimes a prayer isn't a request at all but merely being thankful and not necessarily to a divine being.

Agreed, I did this last night while eating heirloom tomatoes in the garden

Praying without believing can work --- if there is someone listening......perhaps not all believing prayers have a placebo effect.....If you do not believe yet you pray, then there is the possibility for someone to answer the prayer

Your concept of prayer without believing is interesting to me. If you don't attribute all answered prayer to the placebo effect, does that mean that you believe a deity/supernatural power is intervening to answer prayer, even for non-believers?

Do you think prayer by all faiths (Christians, Jews, Moslems, Pagan religions, Hindus, etc) can be "answered"? Is the prayer of any one faith more/less likely to be answered than others? Is prayer of believers of a given faith more likely to be answered than prayer of non-believers?

Would you say that your sister is a member of one of these types of meetings?

I hope not (I haven't been to her new church since she recently moved) but some of your descriptions do fit a conservative Southern Baptist worship service. And sometimes folks speak in tongues in Southern Baptist services, which I have always thought a little strange... Maybe they are being hypnotized just before the offering tray is passed around

 

[Dream]

"Maybe there are similarities but sometimes people pray without believing. With prayer there is an awareness that someone is listening or may be listening and respond." Dream.

I'm adding you to my collection. If you view my posts, you can see I'm an author who's been quoted internationally by many esteemed persons, including yourself.

If you are defining prayer in the second sentence, the first one is a contradiction.

I understand what you are saying, yet there is a difference in expecting something to happen and being neutral. The awareness would be a sort of belief, but you could also pray even without that. Some people do.

If one is aware, this implies belief if aware means "conscious of".

I will clarify what I meant to say. It is possible to pray with words only and without believing. I think this is much more common than it would be to cast a spell without believing, unless you count being alive as a spell and so forth. Its nearly impossible to compare spells to anything, because people who 'Cast spells' often don't like to classify them as they seem to think it has a dampening or mixing effect and view naming as a type of spell casting -- if there are types. You have to come up with your own definition of what spells are.

If it is prayer and not meditation or comptemplation, then one must be aware (which implies belief) IMHO. Like IG says, praying w/o belief (specifically in something to listen and perhaps respond) is either talking to yourself (I did that a lot in chrch as a kid, lo these many years ago, or some form of meditation or comptemplation.

I see where you're going. So a prayer without belief would be meditation? That is a convenient definition if you want to say that prayers and spells are the same thing. Many spell casters and prayer practitioners would disagree if you put that into a dictionary.

So "prayer, magick, spells, witchcraft etc" are a form of the power of belief if yoiu use "prayer" the way I think you mean to. Meditation and comptemplation are something else I think.

I hope I'm not missing your point, addressing a different subject than you or getting off track. Meditation and contemplation are new concepts for me. So are spells and to a lesser degree, prayers.

 

[Dream]

I hope not (I haven't been to her new church since she recently moved) but some of your descriptions do fit a conservative Southern Baptist worship service. And sometimes folks speak in tongues in Southern Baptist services, which I have always thought a little strange... Maybe they are being hypnotized just before the offering tray is passed around

In SBC churches the pastor's position and salary traditionally are controlled by votes, and the new worship formats give pastors extra persuasive ability that hymns can't provide. It used to be that Southern Baptists traditionally sang hymns and focused on fellowship, but many pastors lately have been adopting modern worship formats since the mid-80's and paying 'Worship leaders' instead of organists.

They say the new worship format is a gift from God, a modern 'Wave of the spirit' passing through the church and their church shouldn't miss it. Churches that have too much fellowship focus are being derided as 'Social clubs' instead of 'Real churches.'

This is taking place not only in the SBC but in many other denominations that traditionally sing hymns. Pastors chide their congregations for not worshiping with enough vigor and introduce worship leaders and worship with a more podium-centered focus.

 

[Ahanu]

podium-centered

Reminds me of teacher-centered: do not question and I will write upon your blank slates everything you need to know.

I'm definitely not a fan of the SBC.

 

[Dream]

Reminds me of teacher-centered: do not question and I will write upon your blank slates everything you need to know.

Like having a low end job with no possibility of promotion.

 

[william b]

It's all make believe. "Oooo, I can cast spells. You are a frog now." "Ooooo. I prayed to God and he is giving me wishes and going to get me a pony. Also, you are a frog now." "Ooooo. I read The Secret. I am sitting on a toilet straining to poop out my dreams and soon they will become real. You will become a frog and I will get a pony."

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

i have done a bit more reading and i think prayer can be classed as a type of magic, but it is not the only type.

and I guess there are different reasons potentially for why prayer works, i.e someone could be listening or it could be the power of belief.

 

[Etu Malku]

Prayer, magick, spells, witchcraft etc, are these all labels for the same thing the power of belief ?

I think if we remove the God thing from prayer, we can clearly see what prayer really is, a technique for implanting positive suggestions in our minds, another form of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP). Prayer is also a form of meditation and capable of neuroplasticity (the ability to change how the brain functions).

NLP uses Self image and attitude towards illness to effect change and to promote healing. Hope is our greatest asset. It is one of the main reasons why placebos (sugar pills used in clinical studies) work.
Today's prayers are basically rote recitations or simple wish-making. Originally, prayer was a process of concentrated visualization combined with emotional and mental energy, all made manifest into the physical through proper vocalization.

Prayer is indeed a form of invocation, which is a form of Magick as it unites our meditative state of consciousness with the power of the Word and with our innate force of Will. Magick (not to be confused with magic which is an entertainment based on deception and illusion) is "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will".

 

[jean02]

Earthly doing is "to see is to believe" and this is what all means.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

I think if we remove the God thing from prayer, we can clearly see what prayer really is, a technique for implanting positive suggestions in our minds, another form of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP). Prayer is also a form of meditation and capable of neuroplasticity (the ability to change how the brain functions).

NLP uses Self image and attitude towards illness to effect change and to promote healing. Hope is our greatest asset. It is one of the main reasons why placebos (sugar pills used in clinical studies) work.
Today's prayers are basically rote recitations or simple wish-making. Originally, prayer was a process of concentrated visualization combined with emotional and mental energy, all made manifest into the physical through proper vocalization.

Prayer is indeed a form of invocation, which is a form of Magick as it unites our meditative state of consciousness with the power of the Word and with our innate force of Will. Magick (not to be confused with magic which is an entertainment based on deception and illusion) is "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will".

I can see that about prayer implanting positive things into our minds although I think there is more to it than just that.

as an ex charismatic part of theology and also my experience is that sometimes the Holy Spirit guides us in what to pray and its these sorts of prayers that are most powerful and successfully.

 

[Etu Malku]

I like Crowley's definition of Magick, it sits well with my understanding.
"the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will"

I have practiced ritual magick for many years (I'm 50) and have come to the understanding that the process works in such a way that first a change in you must be created through some ritualistic activity. Then through projection of the Will into the material/objective world, actual physical changes can be made.

Can we turn someone into a toad, probably not (at least not yet)!