human nature - inherently good or evil?

[Etu Malku]

Love, faith, honesty, trust, confession, forgiving, patience, prayer... these may be done individually, but do involve and require at least one other.

If someone can meditate their neighbor, then I'll add it to the list of activities that require at least two people.

How does one meditate their neighbor?

If everything you just listed 'requires' at least one other person, how can they be done individually?

 

[Lunitik]

love - all that exists, but utterly disgusting when targeted.
faith - pointless, just means you believe something without proof
honesty - not always the best policy, depends on the situation
trust - an aspect of love, when directed at the whole it is beautiful
confession - the past is dead, what purpose is there in bringing it back up?
forgiving - again, something of identification with the past
patience - life is too short to wait
prayer - feeling deep gratitude for existence is beautiful, requests are stupid
meditation - the only way to see your true self, and to find God

 

[IowaGuy]

Jung believed that, to be psychologically healthy, one must strike a balance between the demands of society and what we really are.

To be oblivious to one's persona is to underestimate the importance of society, but to be unaware of one's deep individuality is to become society's puppet.

Nice summary, I agree.

identifying with the group is utterly poisonous and results eventually and inevitably in losing your own individuality

I think identifying with a group is OK as long as group think doesn't take over. (For example, I identify with a group by attending a family reunion or an alumni gathering of my college.) We just need to always be conscious that we are maintaining our own individuality as you state and not letting the group dynamics override the individual.

it is very common that when in a group setting we will become utterly unconscious to our true being, we become part of a mindless collective.

Agreed, the mindless collective, particularly when influenced by religious dogma, is very bad. War is another extreme example of your "ant" analogy.

So, just to clarify your position, do you think those that joined Ohso's "society" in Oregon were wrong in doing so? Per your logic, couldn't they have accomplished the same or more on their own as strictly an individual without the group dynamic?

 

[seattlegal]

Love, faith, honesty, trust, confession, forgiving, patience, prayer... these may be done individually, but do involve and require at least one other.

Individually applied:

Love: lack of hate--lack of self mutilation and self-destructive behaviour
Faith: lack of having centipede's dilemma--not micromanaging every muscular motion when walking, etc. Having faith that your subconscious conditioning will keep your body balanced, etc, while walking, breathing, etc.
Trust: Having confidence in your abilities to see you through a situation--related to courage
Confession: The act of ceasing self-deception
Forgiving: The ability to try again when you have failed
Patience: The fortitude it take to learn a new skill
Prayer: mindfulness

If someone can meditate their neighbor, then I'll add it to the list of activities that require at least two people.

Empathy.

{And next on Ask the Introvert, she answers the question: why do you seem you so creepy?}

 

[luecy7]

How does one meditate their neighbor?

Hypnosis?

If everything you just listed 'requires' at least one other person, how can they be done individually?

I mean without reciprocation.

I have come across a lot of people who really prefer that one or all of those, for example, do not involve another person.

 

[luecy7]

Individually applied:

Love: lack of hate--lack of self mutilation and self-destructive behaviour
Faith: lack of having centipede's dilemma--not micromanaging every muscular motion when walking, etc. Having faith that your subconscious conditioning will keep your body balanced, etc, while walking, breathing, etc.
Trust: Having confidence in your abilities to see you through a situation--related to courage
Confession: The act of ceasing self-deception
Forgiving: The ability to try again when you have failed
Patience: The fortitude it take to learn a new skill
Prayer: mindfulness

It takes one person to toy.

Sure, you can claim that you love your tool, have faith in your tool, trust your tool, confess to your tool, forgive your tool, have patience in your tool, and pray with mindfulness to your tool.

But can you love another person, have faith in another person, trust another person, confess to another person, forgive another person, have patience in another person, and pray to another person?

I submit, without proof, that there is a huge difference between another person, and a tool.

Empathy.

Certainly a two player, but nothing even close to the meditation that Lunitik describes.

{And next on Ask the Introvert, she answers the question: why do you seem you so creepy?}

 

[seattlegal]

It takes one person to toy.

Sure, you can claim that you love your tool, have faith in your tool, trust your tool, confess to your tool, forgive your tool, have patience in your tool, and pray with mindfulness to your tool.

Are you finished toying with "my tool?"

 

[Lunitik]

I wanna know how from individual application, we have jumped to another object? Luecy has already admitted he objectifies people, so for him tools and people are not that different at all, only that the person can express those things in return so perhaps there is a little more depth.

It is not at all surprising that a non-meditator cannot fathom a non-targeted love, when each person you encounter is recognized as part of the whole and your love is for the whole, you will love each person deeply. The difference is that it is not a possession, you do not cling to the other, you simply enjoy their presence while they are in your life. When it is time for them to leave, you allow it utterly because you know they are not necessary for your love.

It becomes a deep responsibility, an utter independence. It is a type of illness to depend on the other for your own state of mind and well being. Yet, that is exactly what goes on today, often you hear "she makes me happy", it is disgusting and it is not at all different from a drug now. You do not know how to be happy alone, this person is allowing your happiness to surface, so you will fear losing this person because you want to keep your happiness. The other will become your addiction, and you will call it love but it is no such thing.

 

[Lunitik]

Are you finished toying with "my tool?"

wow... uhhh

 

[Etu Malku]

I wanna know how from individual application, we have jumped to another object? Luecy has already admitted he objectifies people, so for him tools and people are not that different at all, only that the person can express those things in return so perhaps there is a little more depth.

It is not at all surprising that a non-meditator cannot fathom a non-targeted love, when each person you encounter is recognized as part of the whole and your love is for the whole, you will love each person deeply. The difference is that it is not a possession, you do not cling to the other, you simply enjoy their presence while they are in your life. When it is time for them to leave, you allow it utterly because you know they are not necessary for your love.

It becomes a deep responsibility, an utter independence. It is a type of illness to depend on the other for your own state of mind and well being. Yet, that is exactly what goes on today, often you hear "she makes me happy", it is disgusting and it is not at all different from a drug now. You do not know how to be happy alone, this person is allowing your happiness to surface, so you will fear losing this person because you want to keep your happiness. The other will become your addiction, and you will call it love but it is no such thing.

Nevermind Luecy (I keep thinking this is a female!)

The Highest bliss on earth shall be
The joys of personality! - Goethe

The achievement of personality means the optimum development of the whole individual Human Being. The miracle that is this Human Being/Great Ape/Intelligent Ape is that we are able to act otherwise than as humanity has always acted, and it is explained as the gift of the Dæmon

What leads the typical Human Being to this enlightenment is "vocation'. The irrational factor that destines One's Self to emancipation from the herd and well-worn paths of society.

Those with vocation do hear the Inner Voice of their Dæmon as it whispers to them of new and wonderful paths.

The Inner Voice is our comprehensive consciousness, it is the birth of the hero and the symbolic rebirth. It is synonymous with an increased Self Awareness. Mythologically this has been associated with Solar attributions and deification, it is the expansion of Self into the Greater Personality and has been known as Illumination/Enlightenment/Luciferian Gnosis.

We have seen this in many stories, particularly the Temptation of Christ and the Mara of Buddha. The Inner Voice whispers to us of something negative, something Evil. We are unconscious of our vices but conscious of our virtues, the Inner Voice presents this Evil in an Individual Form, it is always tempting, convincing, and seductive. Its goal is to make us succumb to it.

Of this we must partially succumb. If we do not partially succumb, this Evil enters us, if we succumb completely, then this Evil becomes a catastrophe. But if we succumb only in part, by self-assertion the Ego can save itself from being completely swallowed, then it will assimilate the voice, and we realize the Evil was only a semblance of evil, and reality a Bringer of Light (healing & illumination) Lux Lucis.

The Inner Voice is the Luciferian Principle in the strictest sense of the Word. It faces us with the ultimate moral decisions without which we can never achieve full consciousness and Become Individual.

What say you Lunitik?

 

[Lunitik]

Personality is a fabrication, the result of learning certain responses for certain situations, it is the opposite of individuality. Luciferianism seems very much to be about growing the ego, this renders it impossible to actually become enlightened - to experience that sense of unity with the whole. By growing the ego, you separate yourself from the goal.

At the same time, the Inner Voice - or just intuition - is important, yet here it is something which plans. This is not a trusting of the whole, of existence. You are still maintaining personal control, enlightenment happens in moments of surrender. Full enlightenment is the final surrender, you give yourself over completely - and it is inevitable, in your final death it is certain. It has to be remembered that religion has been discovered through curiosity about death unless you accept that God sends messengers, thus Luciferianism is going in utterly the wrong direction.

I would posit that perhaps you have chosen Luciferianism because you fear death, and it seems to be a religion which confirms your own insecurity around that. It has many good insights, but as you correctly say, it is a philosophy and not a religion. Philosophy is a mind pursuit, and you know how I feel about that...

 

[Lunitik]

Enlightenment happens when mind stops, and as soon as mind reasserts itself, the experience stops. It is not something I like, there is a certain comfort in entertaining yourself with your own thoughts, yet the ecstasy of enlightenment ensures I will attempt to prolong no-mind until it is permanent.

When it becomes permanent, ego is an impossibility because it is merely minds sense of self, definition of "I". It is utterly non-existential, just another concept in the head that many identify with.

 

[Etu Malku]

Personality is a fabrication, the result of learning certain responses for certain situations, it is the opposite of individuality. Luciferianism seems very much to be about growing the ego, this renders it impossible to actually become enlightened - to experience that sense of unity with the whole. By growing the ego, you separate yourself from the goal.

It (Luciferianism) is certainly NOT about atoning with the objective universe, you are correct. It is about atoning with our Higher Self / Dæmon, disconnecting from the pre-ordered Laws and Platonic First Forms, in order to Become Individual.

Personality, as you surmised correctly, is the fabricated masks we put on for the various reasons necessary for existence.

I believe where WE differ is in OUR practices and understandings.
I understand and have experienced atonement with the Natural Universe, I understand the loss of Ego, etc.
I have also experienced the Inner Light that has enabled Mankind to climb down from the trees. It is this Luciferian Gnosis which I speak of, the understanding of something 'more' than the Objective Self, the Guiding Light of Individualism / Inner Voice / Dæmon.

What you speak of is the surrendering of the Ego (balanced Self) to the Principles and Laws of the Objective universe. The paradox is the very Desire to attain union with the OU evidences the Individual's essential Separateness from that Universe. To be Aware of One's disconnection from that Universe is to remain disconnected from it.

 

[Lunitik]

Enlightenment is the experience of at-one-ment... I have experienced this as well. It is plain that separation is my state when not in meditation, I can return to at-one-ment any time I please but always it is temporary. Nothing which is temporary is real, and thus my course is to make it my permanent state. I have come to the door of making this permanent and thus know it will resemble death, it may even cost me my life in this body. I am apparently not yet ready for that...

Thinking yourself connected does not mean it is your current experience, you are simply clinging to something in the past. When I say "I am enlightened" on this forum, it is because I have entered that space, but it is not a constant state thus there is still separation whether I want it or not.

 

[Etu Malku]

Enlightenment is the experience of at-one-ment... I have experienced this as well. It is plain that separation is my state when not in meditation, I can return to at-one-ment any time I please but always it is temporary. Nothing which is temporary is real, and thus my course is to make it my permanent state. I have come to the door of making this permanent and thus know it will resemble death, it may even cost me my life in this body. I am apparently not yet ready for that...

Thinking yourself connected does not mean it is your current experience, you are simply clinging to something in the past. When I say "I am enlightened" on this forum, it is because I have entered that space, but it is not a constant state thus there is still separation whether I want it or not.

Then our practices are not that different.

 

[seattlegal]

Nevermind Luecy (I keep thinking this is a female!)

The Highest bliss on earth shall be
The joys of personality! - Goethe

Another Goethe quote I just posted the other day:

We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe.”
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe​

and then there is another one I posted just about a month ago:

"Know thyself? If I knew myself, I'd run away."
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe​

The achievement of personality means the optimum development of the whole individual Human Being. The miracle that is this Human Being/Great Ape/Intelligent Ape is that we are able to act otherwise than as humanity has always acted, and it is explained as the gift of the Dæmon

What leads the typical Human Being to this enlightenment is "vocation'. The irrational factor that destines One's Self to emancipation from the herd and well-worn paths of society.

Those with vocation do hear the Inner Voice of their Dæmon as it whispers to them of new and wonderful paths.

The Inner Voice is our comprehensive consciousness, it is the birth of the hero and the symbolic rebirth. It is synonymous with an increased Self Awareness. Mythologically this has been associated with Solar attributions and deification, it is the expansion of Self into the Greater Personality and has been known as Illumination/Enlightenment/Luciferian Gnosis.

We have seen this in many stories, particularly the Temptation of Christ and the Mara of Buddha. The Inner Voice whispers to us of something negative, something Evil. We are unconscious of our vices but conscious of our virtues, the Inner Voice presents this Evil in an Individual Form, it is always tempting, convincing, and seductive. Its goal is to make us succumb to it.

Of this we must partially succumb. If we do not partially succumb, this Evil enters us, if we succumb completely, then this Evil becomes a catastrophe. But if we succumb only in part, by self-assertion the Ego can save itself from being completely swallowed, then it will assimilate the voice, and we realize the Evil was only a semblance of evil, and reality a Bringer of Light (healing & illumination) Lux Lucis.

The Inner Voice is the Luciferian Principle in the strictest sense of the Word. It faces us with the ultimate moral decisions without which we can never achieve full consciousness and Become Individual.

What say you Lunitik?

I wouldn't say my inner voice is evil or seductive at all. When I was going through my childbirth crisis and my awareness was scattered about all over the place, a voice asked me what I wanted to do.

 

[Etu Malku]

Another Goethe quote I just posted the other day:

We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe.”
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe​

and then there is another one I posted just about a month ago:

"Know thyself? If I knew myself, I'd run away."
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe​

I wouldn't say my inner voice is evil or seductive at all. When I was going through my childbirth crisis and my awareness was scattered about all over the place, a voice asked me what I wanted to do.

who can escape the words of Goethe?

What did this Inner Voice say to you?

 

[seattlegal]

who can escape the words of Goethe?

What did this Inner Voice say to you?

"What do you want to do?"

 

[IowaGuy]

We are unconscious of our vices but conscious of our virtues, the Inner Voice presents this Evil in an Individual Form, it is always tempting, convincing, and seductive.

Etu - why do you think the "inner voice" presents evil?

I went through a hedonistic stage a couple of decades ago; my inner voice was most always a "little angel" to offset my "evil" doings.

Could it be that the inner voice is just a counterbalance to our current nature and philosophy, not necessrily evil?

 

[Lunitik]

Could it be that the inner voice is just a counterbalance to our current nature and philosophy, not necessrily evil?

You have a point, perhaps intuition is telling you that you have gone too much to one direction - life is no longer a totality for you, it has become utterly partial. When religions speak of the heart, they are speaking about our centers, to find it you must have a certain balance in life. If we can function totally from our centers, then I say that person is religious. If you permit yourself to be swayed this way and that, you will be at most a seeker - seeking the center - otherwise you will be just totally irreligious. For me, a saint is also utterly irreligious, as irreligious as the hedonistic person, because there is no authenticity there, they are too much unbalanced. Outwardly, they will seem honorable, but inside it is certain that they will be split, insane. They have fought so much to repress their natural state in the name of religion, just as the hedonist will repress goodness to sustain their own behavior. That repression arises as this "Inner Voice", it is the unconsciousness coming to the surface, whereas intuition is a similar quality but acting more as a guide than anything else. You have to go into the "Inner Voice" and face it, then you can have a more pure intuition.