New Physics

Biocentrism has one major (perhaps fatal flaw). When the living thing ends, so does the universe. While you state "I do not mean multiple universes exist" the source you are using (Lanza) assumes that.

Yes, Lanza assumes multiple universes exist. Yes, I could be misleading by not making a distinction by what Lanza believes and Ahanu believes. The central idea in Biocentrism is this: "the animal observer creates reality and not the other way around." I could Baha'ify this thought.

For me it all comes dwon to what you mean by "universe". Most use it (whether or not they know it) in a scientific sense, that is the universe is matter that we see, taste, hear, etc. If you step back and include mind and consciousness as part of the universe, then it is something different. I have not experienced this a G!d, though. The Divine is beyond, hence, I an a panentheist... G!d is more than we know or can know.

Exactly. Science rests on the assumption that there is an external universe out there. This is also the assumption of Atheists.

Now to Baha'ify. By universe I mean a reflection of the Real (God) in human consciousness. Everything reflects the Real within its own degree and station, so the universe appears differently depending on the level of consciousness.

Where is this universe, the reflection of the Real?

"The answer in terms of image-location and neural mechanics is actually more straightforward than almost any other aspect of biocentrism. Because the images of the trees, grass, the book you're holding, and everything else that's perceived is real and not imaginary, it must be physically happening in some location. Human physiology texts answer this without ambiguity. Although the eye and retina gather photons that deliver their payload of bits of the electromagnetic force, these are channeled through heavy-duty cables straight back until the actual perception of images themselves physically occurs in the back of the brain, augmented by other nearby locations, in special sections that are as vast and labyrinthine as the hallways of the Milky Way, and contain as many neurons as there are stars in the galaxy. This, according to human physiology texts, is where the actual colors, shapes, and movement 'happen.' This is where they are perceived or cognized."
-Lanza

I also like this quote:

"The external world and consciousness are correlative."

Lanza also includes examples. Here is one:

"It is easy to recall from everyday experience that neither electicity nor magnetism have visual properties. So, on its own, it's not hard to grasp that there is nothing inherently visual, nothing bright or colored about that candle flame. Now let these same invisible electromagnetic waves strike a human retina, and if (and only if) the waves each happen to measure between 400 and 700 nanometers in length from crest to crest, then their energy is just right to deliver a stimulus to the 8 million con-shaped cells in the retina. Each in turn sends an electrical pulse to a neighbor neuron, and on up the line this goes, at 240 mph, until it reaches the warm, wet occipital lobe of the brain, in the back of the head. There, a cascading complex of neurons fire from the incoming stimuli, and we subjectively perceive this experience as a yellow brightness occurring in a place we have been conditioned to call 'the external world.'"

This brings us to another question asked by Bishop Shelby Spong:

"Will we evolve beyond self-consciousness into something not yet imagined?"

In fact, even if humans do not evolve beyond that point, what if another being in the universe reaches this state? The "mineral world" is an illusion and does not exist in relation to self-conscious beings. What if higher levels of consciousness render our perception of the universe as an illusion too? How would that change our view of "the universe" ending with the death of a self-conscious being? Or even death itself?

Even if biocentrism is wrong, I think Lanza is stepping in the right direction by merging biology and physics.
 
Well, you pass the sanity check. The problem is his metaphysics, he comes down to a Goswami-like conclusion that mental takes precidence over physical. Fine. I believe that the two must be seen as one continuum.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt.
 
"the animal observer creates reality and not the other way around."...."The external world and consciousness are correlative."

So, if mental takes precedence over physical; if all life on the earth is destroyed someday by an asteroid, nuclear war, etc; does God also die since there is no life left to observe God?
 
Well, that is what Lanza's theory would lead us to. I do not support this, it is (1) a varient of many-worlds theory and (2) is monist (in this case idealistically so, in Hawking's case physically so).

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
 
Iowaguy said:
if all life on the earth is destroyed someday by an asteroid, nuclear war, etc; does God also die since there is no life left to observe God?
Good question. Lets ask God! God, by your reaction we will understand your response.
  • If you want to answer yes, send an asteroid to destroy the earth
  • if its no send a nuclear war to destroy all life on earth.
Thank you, amen.

PS. If you aren't sure, then I guess you can just do whatever you want to do.
 
If idealistic monism is true and the only life in the universe is that on Planet Earth (both Lanza's assumptions), then destroying life here just ends the universe (Lanza does not address G!d's existence).

Pax et amore omnia vincumt!
 
So, if mental takes precedence over physical; if all life on the earth is destroyed someday by an asteroid, nuclear war, etc; does God also die since there is no life left to observe God?

According to Lanza, death is not the end:

"Think of the universe like one of those globes you see in the classroom – it’s merely a tool that represents everything that’s theoretically possible to experience. But like a CD, the music only leaps into reality when you play one of the songs. Instead of the Universe having an absolute beginning, imagine, instead, that existence is like a recording. Depending on where the needle is placed you hear a certain song. This is the present; the music, before and after is the past and future. All songs exist simultaneously, although we only experience them piece by piece."

"Death is simply a break in our linear stream of consciousness. Indeed, biocentrism suggests it’s a manifold to all dimensional potentialities."

"Physics tells us observations can’t be predicted absolutely. Rather, there’s a range of possible observations each with a different probability. According to one interpretation, each of these possible observations corresponds to a different universe (the 'multiverse'). There are an infinite number of universes (including our own) that comprise everything that can possibly happen. Thus, death doesn’t exist in any real sense, since all possible universes exist simultaneously regardless of what happens in any of them.

True, you age and die, but there are always bubbles (universes) spanning the breadth of eternity. Some may not travel very far, but others will float off into the horizon. Perhaps you’ll get that space-trip to the stars after all.

'The first step to eternal life,' said Chuck Palahniuk 'is you have to die.'"

"Without consciousness, space and time are nothing; in reality you can take any time -- whether past or future -− as your new frame of reference. Death is a reboot that leads to all potentialities."

While it is true biocentrism is silent on God, I personally think Lanza explains his view of God in the following words:

"Our individual separateness in space and time (as, for instance, the apatosaurus and velociraptors of the Jurassic Period, the pandas in China, or the mountain gorillas of East Africa) is, in a sense, illusory. We are all melted together, parts of an organism that transcends the walls of space and time. This is not, you understand, a fanciful metaphor. It is a reality. I have learned, as a biologist and biocentrist, that life is a complex play of cells, some that are around when you’re young, some when you’re old, but that all, regardless of species, are parts of one organism expanding and contracting in space and time in whatever shape and form it can.

'I would say,' said Loren Eiseley, the great anthropologist and natural science writer, 'that if ‘dead’ matter has reared up this curious landscape of fiddling crickets, song sparrows, and wondering men, it must be plain even to the most devoted materialist that the matter of which he speaks contains amazing, if not dreadful powers, and may not impossibly be, as [Thomas] Hardy has suggested, ‘but one mask of many worn by the Great Face behind.'

Eiseley and Hardy were right. If we could see behind the fiddling crickets and song sparrows, before the first single-cell organism, and after the last man and woman, only you would remain — you, the Great Face behind, that consciousness whose mode of thinking contains the frog, the dolphin and the whales. Nay, that contains the world."

If my assumption of Lanza's view of God is correct, then, when you die, God does not die: you are God.
 
According to Lanza, death is not the end:
There are an infinite number of universes.....Death is a reboot that leads to all potentialities."

Like Radarmark, I'm not a big fan of an infinite number of universes. We can't even see all of our current universe and certainly don't fully understand our current universe. Occam's Razor would say the simplest explanation would be one universe.

"Death is a reboot" sounds like rebirth/reincarnation to me.


We are all melted together, parts of an organism that transcends the walls of space and time......parts of one organism expanding and contracting in space and time in whatever shape and form it can.

If my assumption of Lanza's view of God is correct, then, when you die, God does not die: you are God.

If we are all part of one organism transcending space & time, how does this differ from pantheism?
 
If we are all part of one organism transcending space & time, how does this differ from pantheism?

It is panentheism: God transcends, yet God is in the world. You are the "Great Face" behind all consciousness "transcending the walls of space and time". . . even though you feel separated from all other beings at this point in your journey.
 
Ahanu, it is real simple here. I do not really care what Lanza says. It is what must logically follow from his proposed system. If the universe is a function of the consciusness of living beings and all living beings are gone, the universe does not exist any more. Period. G!d would cease to exist as well. He is a idealistic monist. If life stops, mind stops, existence (as he defines it metaphysically) ceases.

You are caught up in his words, look at his ideas. This is one reason why you will not find a single reference to him or Biocentrism (by a physicist) in either a Google Scholor or arXiv.org (an international database of scientific papers) search (and many many rude discussions about him on forums of physicists). His physics just do not work. He may have been a good geneticist, but the last time someone outside of physics (or before that natural philosophy) had any impact was a long, long time ago (at least pre-Newtonian).

As you asked me, please limit your discussion here to questions of physics or the metaphysics of physics.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
 
Ahanu, it is real simple here. I do not really care what Lanza says. It is what must logically follow from his proposed system. If the universe is a function of the consciusness of living beings and all living beings are gone, the universe does not exist any more. Period. G!d would cease to exist as well. He is a idealistic monist. If life stops, mind stops, existence (as he defines it metaphysically) ceases.

You are caught up in his words

Then I should remind you of Iowaguy's question. If all living things on Earth died, then, no, God would not die, because according to biocentrism, we don't see alien life since they exist in other universes. In other words, there is always a conscious being somewhere. I quoted Lanza to answer that question and that question only.

Biocentric Universe: Where Are The Aliens? - YouTube

As you asked me, please limit your discussion here to questions of physics or the metaphysics of physics.

Fine.
 
No, we have no proof of that. We only have proof of life here. And that just changes the arguement to "life ends everywhere it may exist" versus "life ends on Earth".

Back to your question, IG. Yes, the comment was panentheistic (remember so am I!). The problem is that Lanza is not. He is arguing strictly within the confines of "scientistic materialism" even though he is arguing for "idealistic monism". I do the same thing, most of my arguments are based in scientistic materialism, but when I go beyond, I just call it common sense (though there is little sense and less commonality in it, methinks).

Interesting discussion. Can "scientististic materialism" as a metaphysics, as an ideology admit panentheism? I for one do not see how except for a Divosian inconsistency.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt.
 
Can "scientististic materialism" as a metaphysics, as an ideology admit panentheism?

I'm not sure on your spelling here Radar, do you mean to say scientific materialism?

Pantheism would be a better fit with scientific materialism than panentheism, no?

Pantheism would also be a better fit for a one-universe view of existence, would it not? If panentheism means that "God" is in everything yet transcends, but there exists no other universe besides our own, how is that any different than pantheism where God is the universe? How can "God" transcend the one-and-only universe?

i.e. it seems to me that panentheism makes more sense along with a belief in more than one universe. Otherwise "God" exists entirely in our universe, which is basically pantheism.
 
Pantheism would be a better fit with scientific materialism than panentheism, no?

I agree.

Can "scientististic materialism" as a metaphysics, as an ideology admit panentheism?

No.

The problem is that Lanza is not. He is arguing strictly within the confines of "scientistic materialism" even though he is arguing for "idealistic monism".

Okay. I see what you are saying now.

"Because physics is governed by the scientific method, it deals exclusively with phenomena. Thus, it effectively diverts attention away from the cognitive, categorical aspect of perceptual reality, without which neither phenomena nor scientific theories could exist. Because physics is irreducibly dualistic and takes the fundamental separation of mind and matter as axiomatic, it cannot provide us with a complete picture of reality. It can tell us only what lies outside the subjective observer, not within."

Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe

What do you think about the CTMU, Radarmark? I've seen people on a Baha'i forum talking about the CTMU, so they must think it is compatible with Baha'i theology. I've been searching for a theory compatible with the Baha'i Faith.

I've pretty much exhausted my studies of biocentrism. I think I'll move on to the CTMU (which I do not know much about at the moment).
 
I am assuming you are referring to Langan's "Cognitive Theoretic Model of the Universe". Well... hard for anyone without a background in physics to get noticed by the community. However, his views closely parallel mine (is that good or bad) and some "fringe" elements like Stapp, Finkelstein, Isham, and Penrose.

See, just being bright (Langan is that) is not enough. One must "wear the hair shirt". I basically quit physics (but the Air Force kept using me as one) when I caught on to the academic and discipline games. One can sit outside the arena and take mathematical and metaphysical pot shots (which is what I do, like Langan). But one does not enter the golden circle.

I have read everything I can find on CTMU, it is a metaphysically-based external analysis of the physics that is (IMHO, as far as I can find) inevitably well thought out and presented. Like Penrose and his CCC (the universe is eternal and consists of bangs and crushes) or Stapp and his MU (the universe has a mind) or Finkelstein and his CLQ (there is a physically measureable time like Plank-time), Langan is way out there. But, unlike them, he does not have the PhD in physics or yraes in the trenches.

I would love to talk to him someday and say, "dude, just toss in a few equations... find a grad student in physics who is willing to be your frontman and co-author papers, heck I am pretty sure Sir Roger P and Hank S would do it".

I meant nothing personal by coming down hard on Lanza. It is just that of his 7 principles at least four can be (and in my opinion probably are) just 180 degrees out. His metaphysics are fine (Goswami, a physicist you might enjoy is his spiritual double in terms of metaphysics. Frankly, a Lanza-Goswami collaboration would be really something to see (if their egos do not get in the way).

Oh, now I at long last see the hyperlink, yep, Largan is quite good.

Fact is--one time good offer--you send me the Bahai metaphysics and I will construct a resonable physics around them. Hummmm.... do I smell a possible new thread? Can you get others involved? I think I could get some other non-practicing physicists involved.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
 
Hummmm.... do I smell a possible new thread? Can you get others involved? I think I could get some other non-practicing physicists involved.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!

Check your inbox. You're like the Dwayne Johnson of physics on this forum, so you tell me . . .

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According to this new site... we may make up God and are the universe.

thesomervillehypothesis.com

David
 
"Now I am not asking you to forget what you’ve been taught in school. No doubt much of it is true, although to my mind, limited in scope and narrow in conception. The big issue I have is that they, the theoretical physicists, Astrophysicists astronomers and microbiologists are all studying the same thing, but from different perspectives. Microbiologists, instead of concentrating on the miniscule with electron microscopes, look up! It’s the same thing, although, from the inside, and at a molecular level; electron microscopes will never allow you to see this much detail. Astronomers, look at cell construction, because that’s what we and our Universe are ultimately constructing." from thesomervillehypothesis.com:rolleyes:


many have had this same thought. a lot of money has been made with science fiction based on it. Interesting (complement, like the way PKD or RAH or RAW are).

however, while the experiences are quite similar (if you believe in "stuff", physicality) the stuff is quite different. At this point in time (and probably forever, given the energy required) we (scientists) do not beleive (for the most part) that there is anything lower than sub-atomic particles. We believe the Planck limits are actual G!d (or random nature, if you prefer) created limits. So atoms are made up of stuff that is quite different from the stuff that makes up galaxies.
 
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