John 10:16 - interpretations?

They weren't even dated by tree rings, either. Maybe I need to slow it down a bit. It might take a bit longer, because one must remember that the passage of time is relative to motion. ;) (Someone moving at near light speed would experience one day's passage of time, whereas someone moving somewhat slower would experience much more time during the same period.)

The link you posted discussed the tree being dated by tree rings and radiocarbon dating.
Um, no it didn't. However, your response tends to lead me to believe which way you lean in regards to the question from this post:

Indeed, there are flaws in radiocarbon dating. Pando isn't dated by this method.


I was asking if you had considered Pando in your conclusion. How open are you in your consideration? Do you only consider evidence that fits your preconceived conclusion? Are you after victory instead of truth?
I hope this is not the case. :/

It looks like you applied your preconceived notion about what the article said without even looking at the article, and claimed the article said what was your preconceived notion. :(

{Yes. I'm horrible about testing these things when I don't get an answer. My apologies.}
 
Um, no it didn't. However, your response tends to lead me to believe which way you lean in regards to the question from this post:


I hope this is not the case. :/

It looks like you applied your preconceived notion about what the article said without even looking at the article, and claimed the article said what was your preconceived notion. :(

{Yes. I'm horrible about testing these things when I don't get an answer. My apologies.}

Tree experts also note that the organism's age cannot be determined with the level of precision found in tree rings; some claim Pando's age is closer to 1 million years.

Part of the rationale behind current age estimates for aspen clones is that sexual reproduction is effectively frustrated by the rarity of a favorable suite of conditions in semiarid environments....This is however not supported by other observations in the region, which show that seedling establishment of new clones is regular, and often abundant on sites exposed by wildfire

-----

This is what I found. If it isn't dated by such, what is it dated with?
 
Tree experts also note that the organism's age cannot be determined with the level of precision found in tree rings; some claim Pando's age is closer to 1 million years.

Part of the rationale behind current age estimates for aspen clones is that sexual reproduction is effectively frustrated by the rarity of a favorable suite of conditions in semiarid environments....This is however not supported by other observations in the region, which show that seedling establishment of new clones is regular, and often abundant on sites exposed by wildfire

-----

This is what I found. If it isn't dated by such, what is it dated with?
*sigh*
From the article:

Tree experts also note that the organism's age cannot be determined with the level of precision found in tree rings; some claim Pando's age is closer to 1 million years.[4] Its current 80,000 year designation is based on a complex set of factors including the history of its local environment such as: The evidence indicating that there are few if any naturally occurring new aspens in most of the western United States since a climate shift took place 10,000 years ago and eliminated favorable soil conditions for seedlings; the rate of growth (including the differences of rates in distinct climates when accounting for its local-climate history, that males grow slower than females, and that aspens grow slower at higher elevations – Pando is at 2697 m, or 8,848 ft, above sea level); its size; and its genetic code in comparison to the mutations found among aspens born in the modern era. Michael Grant summed it thus:
Despite enormous crops of viable seeds, successful seedling establishment appears to be a rare event in the semiarid West, but the establishment of new trees from seeds appears to be common in the moist, humid forests of New England... aspen establishment from seeds probably has not occurred in the western United States since the last glaciation, some 10,000 years ago... Part of the rationale behind current age estimates for aspen clones is that sexual reproduction is effectively frustrated by the rarity of a favorable suite of conditions in semiarid environments... High levels of genetic variation and excesses of heterozygotes are found in [the aspen of] semiarid environments... Clonal reproduction is more common in arid environments... Heterozygotes often exhibit superior longevity in forest trees [across many species]... growth rate of aspen decline with elevation, steepness of slope, age of the ramet, and exposure to wind... growth rate decreased dramatically with elevation... The researchers reported that the area of the female clones was 41% greater than males, the number of female ramets 52% greater, and the basal area of females 56% greater [when compared at the same age and environment]...​

As you can see, this method is even more up to debate than the methods you assumed. :/






 
Then why use it?
Because looking at things from different angles and using different methods and tools can lead to different insights. If you just use the same-old-same-old methods, you are bound to get stuck in a rut and make little or no progress. (Reminds me of those who refused to look through Galileo's telescope.) ;)
 
Mitton, J. B. and M. C. Grant. 1996. Genetic variation and the natural history of quaking aspen. BioScience 46:25–31.

Namroud, M-C., A. Park, F. Tremblay, and Y. Bergeron. 2005. Clonal and spatial genetic structures of aspen Populus tremuloides Michx. Molecular Ecology 14:2969–2980.

DeWoody, Rowe, Hipkins, and Mock.2008. “Pando” Lives: Molecular Genetic Evidence of a Giant Aspen Clone in Central Utah. Western North American Naturalist 68(4):493-497

Are pretty much the three best references on calculating the age of "Pando". Pretty complex... you take the age difference between two outer clones normalized to distance and multiply by the distance. I think there are some very good (and availabler if you do not have academic accounts) similar calculations on the age of creosote rings.

The method is more complex than counting tree rings because you are looking to get the age of a "colony of clones", something that reproduces asexually. It is not very controversial though, among biologists or ecological scientists. I do believe it is the only way to get and age of the colony (since each individual "daughter tree" only lives 200 or so years).

Again, you have to believe in science to understand.

Pax et amore vincunt omnia!
 
The people you trust can lie, and the best liars are the easiest people to trust. People want intimacy but can't get it. People believe in intimacy, but intimacy is very rare.

The entire Creation Science publishing event is based on a false promise of intimacy. "You can believe us, because we're Christians. Your pastor is creationist. Look at this famous Christian who is a creationist. If what we're saying isn't true it would mean we lied to you, and you know we wouldn't do that! ...or worse... It would mean that God lied to you!"

By the way this thread is completely derailed.
 
Pretty biologically oriented. Look up age + creosote + rings on Scholar and you will probably find the methodology. The 1996 Mitton & Grant report (only from JSTOR) is the one with the Pando age calculation.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
 
Righto, Dream, which is why I created "Young Earth Stuff" under science (it fits there and my comments will be limited to there).

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
 
The people you trust can lie, and the best liars are the easiest people to trust. People want intimacy but can't get it. People believe in intimacy, but intimacy is very rare.

The entire Creation Science publishing event is based on a false promise of intimacy. "You can believe us, because we're Christians. Your pastor is creationist. Look at this famous Christian who is a creationist. If what we're saying isn't true it would mean we lied to you, and you know we wouldn't do that! ...or worse... It would mean that God lied to you!"

By the way this thread is completely derailed.

We are trying to bring Dan of Louisiana into the fold here. ;)

{Is that close enough to bringing it back to John 10:16?}
 
No, look at my #51, believe that "fold" is the current group of sheep and "flock" should be the future one, so make that "flock" and I will second you!

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
 
You are presuming a level of hostility between Romans and Jews which did not yet exist. Yes, the Romans were foreign occupiers and often resented for it (as in other places besides Judea!) but they bent over backwards to be respectful of the religious traditions of all their subject peoples, donating generously to every shrine (including the Temple in Jerusalem). I find nothing implausible about the Roman conduct reported in the gospels, of releasing a prisoner as a good-will gesture for the holiday, making sure that bodies weren't left hanging on their special day, etc. If you do find it implausible, consider this: these texts were, of course, circulated IN the Roman Empire so, obviously, people who actually lived at that time and knew first hand how Romans behaved didn't find anything implausible about it.

What on earth, Bob, are you talking about? From among all the conquered people at the time, the Romans did not hate any one more than the Jews, whom they had lost most of their legions to. Not only in Israel but also in Syria, they maintained permanent legions only to keep the Jews subject to Roman rule. If you read Josephus' "War of the Jews," you will have an idea of what I am talking about. Any reason was a good reason to nail one more Jew on the cross. Statisticlywise, Rome lost more Romans to the Jews than in any other Roman conquered province throughout the known world.

That tradition may or may not have any truth to it. We are talking about what it actually says in the text. The "Passion" narrative in John is a very good source (I have my doubts about the rest of "John", but the Passion narrative reflects good data about the layout of the city prior to the sack of 70 AD, information which a later forger would have had great difficulty in obtaining).

John did not write the gospel which is attributed to him. Not only for the Hellenistic subject of the gospel, but also because, as Luke reports in Acts 4;13, John and Peter were unlearned and ignorant men. As far as I am concerned, illiterate people don't write books.

Only one of the soldiers is said to have exclaimed "he must be the son of God!" and only in Matthew, so we don't really know if that story is even true rather than just propaganda; but even if it is, there is no good reason to think the soldier who stuck a spear into him was the same soldier, or had the same opinion.

No Bob, the Centurion and his men are reported to have expressed the same confession that Jesus was indeed the son of God. Read Mat. 27:54. Logically, after such a confession, he would never allow any more suffering to be caused to Jesus, besides the fact that such a thing was not in the Roman agenda. He was the highest authority at the Calvary, and no one would report to the contrary about him.

We have lists of "canonical" books from much earlier than that (Muratori c. 170 has the same four gospels, for example; though the question of which epistles to accept remained open for longer).

It does not matter how many canonical books one has. They do not enjoy the authority of the gospels. Whatever the gospels say was either true or a forgery. Since it was not a Roman policy to spear-pierce crucifieds to check if they were dead, it was a forgery. Josephus claims that there were times when the Romans would reach an average of about 500 crucifixions a day. They had no time to spear anyone to check if they were dead. It is simply impossible. I believe that it was a forgery added in the 4th Century by the Church.

Ben
 
What on earth, Bob, are you talking about?
I am talking about the fact that the Jewish revolts against Nero and Hadrian hadn't happened yet at the time we are talking about.
From among all the conquered people at the time, the Romans did not hate any one more than the Jews, whom they had lost most of their legions to.
When the story we are talking about takes place, Rome had never lost any legions or even taken any significant casualties in Judea. It is like you are arguing that Mendelssohn could not possibly have performed concerts for German audiences because he would have been sent to Auschwitz; you are back-projecting attitudes from a much later period.
If you read Josephus' "War of the Jews," you will have an idea of what I am talking about.
Look up the date of that book, and then you will know what I am talking about.
John did not write the gospel which is attributed to him. Not only for the Hellenistic subject of the gospel, but also because, as Luke reports in Acts 4;13, John and Peter were unlearned and ignorant men.
I agree with you; I think Revelation (which is in totally atrocious, semi-literate Greek) is the genuine voice of John son of Zebedee, the Galilean fisherman, while the "gospel of John" is by somebody else. But, whoever is the source for the "Passion" narrative now found in "John" was well-informed about mid-1st-century Jerusalem, and is giving good information.
No Bob, the Centurion and his men are reported to have expressed the same confession that Jesus was indeed the son of God. Read Mat. 27:54.
And that text you take for granted to be a good source??? Note WHY they were exclaiming "he must have been the son of God": because an earthquake had just opened graves and caused dead people to resurrect and start walking around like zombies. This whole section of "Matthew" is a particularly late addition to the book (not found in Justin Martyr's text c. 150 AD) and is pure propaganda.

Whenever you ask whether a story is genuine, or invented, the key issue to keep your eye on is whether there is a motive to make up the story. The motives for the invention of the "guards at the tomb" ending to Matthew are crystal-clear. You are not citing any motivation whatsoever for inventing the spear-thrust story.
It does not matter how many canonical books one has.
I was talking about when the concept of a "canon" arose; you claimed that the church first decided which books were good and which weren't in "327" (a date you seem to have picked out of the air). Actually, the four gospels and the epistles of Paul were recognized as a canonical set of books at least as early as 170, although disputes about which of the lesser books to include continued until the 380's.
It is simply impossible. I believe that it was a forgery added in the 4th Century by the Church.
THAT is simply impossible: we have complete manuscripts from the 3rd century.
 
It is seriously against the odds that someone could undergo all those tortures, and yet stand up again (I'm sure I would respond by lying down dead), but there is nothing about impossible about it. Faith healing is not understood, but people of strong will do often survive conditions which the doctors pronounce fatal. People back then did not know much about the border between "alive" and "dead": of course there was no EEG to tell us whether the brain stopped; we are told that Jesus gave out the classic "last breath" or "death rattle" but cessation of breathing is not always death; they did not check the pulse because nobody knew to do that in those days, but the fact that blood still flowed when he was spear-stuck suggests that his heart was still beating.

According to Josephus, there was no different ways for the Romans to crucify criminals. The steps were the same for everyone from the scourge all the way to the actual crucifixion. Then, that it was not uncommon for crucifieds to linger on their crosses, passing out and back for up to three and four days, till death eventually cought up with them. Jesus was removed from his after only a few hours. This is evidence enough that he could have survived the cross. And, as we know by now, there was no spear-piercing, since it was not a Roman policy.

This is the reverse of the truth. In 1st Corinthians, Paul argues against the notion that Jesus resurrected in a body of "flesh", maintaining instead that the risen Jesus was some kind of "glorified" body made of some kind of spirit-stuff. Paul had "received" from the disciples at Jerusalem the story of Jesus rising from the dead, but wants his own purely visionary experience of the risen Christ to be the same as what the disciples experienced, so that he has equal authority to them; it was the people who had actually met Jesus who insisted that he rose in a purely corporeal fashion.

Glorified body! Spirit-stuff that eats and drinks, and digests food, and goes to the bathroom! So much for spirits to be doing after resurrection. And Paul never received anything from the Apostles in Jerusalem as his gospel was concerned. He declared himself that he had not gone up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before him. (Gal. 1:11,12,17,18) And this, he declared after three years that he was preaching his peculiar gospel.

The epistles to Timothy and Titus, called the "Pastorals", are rejected by non-fundamentalist scholars. They appear late (not mentioned by any early authors, or found in Marcion's collection of Pauline epistles), are different in style and dialect from Paul's genuine epistles, and seem to refer to a more structured church than is likely to have existed that early. There have been counter-arguments: that private letters were not at first generally known, unlike those addressed to churches; and that "Paul after dark" may have had a less formal style than the polished writing in letters intended for publication. A compromise suggested by Meyer, which I somewhat like, is that there were such letters, which were saved as precious relics, but had fallen to pieces by the time they were published; so some sentences here and there are from Paul, but the bulk of the text has been filled in by someone writing "what Paul ought to have said" (a parallel case is the correspondence between Paul and Seneca in Rome: the family of Seneca came out with these saved letters hundreds of years later, but only small sections of the text are thought to be genuine). But we cannot lean too hard on anything in the Pastorals with any confidence that Paul actually wrote it. What is most likely to be genuine are the trivial bits like "I left my cloak behind at Troas, can you retrieve it?" that nobody would have had a motive to make up (ancient forgers did not have much sense of creating this kind of detail for verisimilitude); if we had the whole letters intact, it might be that it was all "Joanna's uncle recently died so why don't you pay her a condolence call? And Trophimus has his bunions again, can you get some of that lotion from Alexandria for him?" and so on and so on.

The truth, according to the NT, is that Paul identifies himself as the one who wrote those epistles addressed to Timothy, whom he confessed his famous personal secret that it was all according to his gospel that Jesus was the Messiah and that he had resurrected. (II Tim. 2:8) It means that there was another gospel being preached, at the same time, which, doubtless was the gospel of the Apostles of Jesus, in whose agenda those Pauline fabrications were not mentioned about Jesus. That's the gospel Paul would refer to, in a pejorative manner, as the other gospel. (Gal. 1:8)
Ben
 
"...it is absolutely the only way to "heaven", and any other religion is inferior..."

--> This is one of the biggest reasons I'm not a Christian any more.


Nick, I am not 100 percent sure but, since you wrote this remark after my thread about the "Let There be Light and it Was Light," I would like to remind you that I do not consider Judaism a religion but a way of life. The main characteristic of religions are dogmas of faith; and Judaism has no dogmas of faith. A Jew is not ostracized or excomunicated for not believing as the others do; only as long as a Jew does not become of another religion. Besides, I did not say that "...it is abolutely the only way to heaven, and any other religion is inferior..." especially because we do not believe in heaven as a place to go to.
Ben
 
it was not uncommon for crucifieds to linger on their crosses, passing out and back for up to three and four days, till death eventually cought up with them. Jesus was removed from his after only a few hours. This is evidence enough that he could have survived the cross.
That's all I was saying. I don't have trouble with the basic story.
And, as we know by now, there was no spear-piercing
All "we" know is that you have a personal belief that the story was made up (for no apparent reason); you base your belief on the profound misconception that the story was set during a time of mass slaughter which actually did not start until forty years later.
it was not a Roman policy.
Josephus tells of a Roman soldier guarding the outer periphery of the Temple grounds during Passover, who started a major riot by dropping his pants and mooning the crowd. I am sure this was not "policy" but I don't therefore doubt that it happened.
Glorified body! Spirit-stuff that eats and drinks, and digests food, and goes to the bathroom!
That is precisely what Paul DENIED in 1st Corinthians, that the risen Jesus was the kind of "flesh" body who eats-and-excretes. It was the DISCIPLES IN JERUSALEM who taught that the risen Jesus ate and drank (in later times, it was especially the Ebionites, the Jewish Christians who followed James the Righteous and detested Paul, who emphasized that the risen Jesus ate).
Paul never received anything from the Apostles in Jerusalem as his gospel was concerned.
Indeed, he had his own views. You are correct that there was a division between Paul and the original disciples on this issue: the problem is that you have the sides 180-degrees reversed.
Paul identifies himself as the one who wrote those epistles addressed to Timothy
Gee, then, the book of Mormon must be by the angel Moroni-- it says so! The book of Enoch must have been written before the Flood-- it says so! The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs are by Jacob's sons, and the Psalms of Solomon were all by Solomon!

Both Jews and Christians produced pseudepigraphic books (falsely attributed to noted figures from the past) by the bushel load. I am astounded that you take for granted the genuineness of dubious texts (nobody had ever heard of "epistles to Timothy" until Paul had been dead 100 years, and they aren't in Paul's style or native dialect), while casually dismissing texts which tell their stories straightforwardly with every appearance of honesty.
 
That's all I was saying. I don't have trouble with the basic story.

All "we" know is that you have a personal belief that the story was made up (for no apparent reason); you base your belief on the profound misconception that the story was set during a time of mass slaughter which actually did not start until forty years later.

Josephus tells of a Roman soldier guarding the outer periphery of the Temple grounds during Passover, who started a major riot by dropping his pants and mooning the crowd. I am sure this was not "policy" but I don't therefore doubt that it happened.

That is precisely what Paul DENIED in 1st Corinthians, that the risen Jesus was the kind of "flesh" body who eats-and-excretes. It was the DISCIPLES IN JERUSALEM who taught that the risen Jesus ate and drank (in later times, it was especially the Ebionites, the Jewish Christians who followed James the Righteous and detested Paul, who emphasized that the risen Jesus ate).

Indeed, he had his own views. You are correct that there was a division between Paul and the original disciples on this issue: the problem is that you have the sides 180-degrees reversed.

Gee, then, the book of Mormon must be by the angel Moroni-- it says so! The book of Enoch must have been written before the Flood-- it says so! The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs are by Jacob's sons, and the Psalms of Solomon were all by Solomon!

Both Jews and Christians produced pseudepigraphic books (falsely attributed to noted figures from the past) by the bushel load. I am astounded that you take for granted the genuineness of dubious texts (nobody had ever heard of "epistles to Timothy" until Paul had been dead 100 years, and they aren't in Paul's style or native dialect), while casually dismissing texts which tell their stories straightforwardly with every appearance of honesty.[/QUOTE

Thats because resurrection is a sealing. Its when the body is taken from the sealed condtion to a big giant spirit being then sealed back down. Esseence is compassion. Thats why the texts in nag hammadi says move a stone and there I will be. It means compassion. Not saying the bad stuff didnt happen, the crucifixion did. However JESUS really is Michael.
 
Allelyah said:
Everything is true and God provides all of it. Truth that is divided across activity areas is not being seen positioned together and with this God places words (interjects them and causes them to be connected with parts of other) through negative energy which is to say understand something correctly at an activity that I am providing to with infatuation.
The infatuation would be probably what Buddhists would call 'Clinging' perhaps. To say that everything is true is difficult. I mean, it may have a higher meaning but in the practical sense everything needs to be true in a specific context -- in my life or in your life.
When God provides to you and your activity as one, you are never understanding God's causation of integrations with the communicating life of negative energy. When God provides understanding by way of a communication of infatuation you are participating in a continuos conduction that is what God interested with and causing to be said now about it.
Are you saying that bad things that happen can have a good effect overall? That bad things are the 'Causation of integrations with the communicating life of negative energy'? The last part is not clear to me. I believe that I am limited and have a concept of truth, in that if you say something to me you either mean it or you don't. If its God who says it, then why should I accept it to mean something else?
 
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