John 10:16 - interpretations?

[Dream]

It may be significant that as Jesus was saying these things he was walking in the court of the gentiles in the temple in a place called the Portico of Solomon which contained a synagogue, offices, markets and was where tourists came to visit the temple. This would also be the vicinity where Jesus attacked the money changers.

 

[radarmark]

Doh! Dream, the context is always oimprotant... I had forgotten that (again)!

 

[Dream]

Allelyah, you are having trouble quoting. To make a quote box put everything between two quote tags and put the name of the person or the title in quotes like this:

 

[donnann]

That's all I was saying. I don't have trouble with the basic story.

All "we" know is that you have a personal belief that the story was made up (for no apparent reason); you base your belief on the profound misconception that the story was set during a time of mass slaughter which actually did not start until forty years later.

Josephus tells of a Roman soldier guarding the outer periphery of the Temple grounds during Passover, who started a major riot by dropping his pants and mooning the crowd. I am sure this was not "policy" but I don't therefore doubt that it happened.

That is precisely what Paul DENIED in 1st Corinthians, that the risen Jesus was the kind of "flesh" body who eats-and-excretes. It was the DISCIPLES IN JERUSALEM who taught that the risen Jesus ate and drank (in later times, it was especially the Ebionites, the Jewish Christians who followed James the Righteous and detested Paul, who emphasized that the risen Jesus ate).

Indeed, he had his own views. You are correct that there was a division between Paul and the original disciples on this issue: the problem is that you have the sides 180-degrees reversed.

Gee, then, the book of Mormon must be by the angel Moroni-- it says so! The book of Enoch must have been written before the Flood-- it says so! The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs are by Jacob's sons, and the Psalms of Solomon were all by Solomon!

Both Jews and Christians produced pseudepigraphic books (falsely attributed to noted figures from the past) by the bushel load. I am astounded that you take for granted the genuineness of dubious texts (nobody had ever heard of "epistles to Timothy" until Paul had been dead 100 years, and they aren't in Paul's style or native dialect), while casually dismissing texts which tell their stories straightforwardly with every appearance of honesty.

The body abosorbs all of the food and drink as energy its made up of light.

 

[Princely]

You shouldn't have to ask people for interpretations, haven't you heard what the son of man says;

It is written in the prophets: They shall all be taught by God. Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.

"I give you praise, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned you have revealed them to the merest child.Yes, Father, such has been your gracious will".

"Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God."

"The man who keeps the commandments He has from me is the man who loves me, and the man who loves me will be loved by my Father, I too will love Him and reveal myself to Him."

"The Lords power will be known to His servants but to His enemies His wrath."

"The Lord God does nothing without revealing it to His plans to His servants the prophets."

"If only you recognized Gods gift, and who it is that’s speaking to you, you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water. Anyone who drinks the water I give him will never become thirsty the water I give him shall be like a well inside him rising up to provide eternal life".

 

[IowaGuy]

You shouldn't have to ask people for interpretations...I too will love Him and reveal myself to Him."

Well, in 4 decades of life I have no evidence of God's personal revelation to me. And believe me when I say I used to ask for a revelation back when I was a Christian.

I think your opinion (of direct revelation = not needing interpretation) can lead to some pretty whacko stuff, after all many cult leaders have claimed to have direct revelations from God...

 

[Princely]

Well, in 4 decades of life I have no evidence of God's personal revelation to me. And believe me when I say I used to ask for a revelation back when I was a Christian.

I think your opinion (of direct revelation = not needing interpretation) can lead to some pretty whacko stuff, after all many cult leaders have claimed to have direct revelations from God...

Princely Wrote;

I put down scripture that backs this up so it isn't my opinion, it is Gods.If God says everyone must learn from Him, then it has to be that way. If people don't understand it is because they are going the wrong way.Sometimes people can keep doing the same thing for centuries and not know they are following a teaching that is wrong, but they make themselves believe it for relief purposes, even though they are really as lost as most.Remember scripture says there are few who find the narrow gate.

It is written;

"In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets. "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

I am the gate, anyone who enters by me will be saved.

Everything has been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone who does His wishes to reveal him.
Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you peace.
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find peace for yourselves.
For my yoke is peaceful, and my burden is light.

Open up the gates to let in a nation that is just, one that keeps faith.

The way of the just is smooth; the path of the just is level.

The just mans mouth speaks wisdom and his tongue does what is right the law of his god is in his heart and he will never stumble.

The Lord gives wisdom, from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. He has council in store for the upright, He is the shield of those who walk honestly.

All those who do right shall rise to live.

I the Lord speak the truth, I say what is right.

Do what is right and just.

Observe what is right and do what is just, for my salvation is about to come, my justice about to be revealed, blessed is the man who does this; the son of man who holds to it.

By your words you'll be forgiven or by your words you will be condemned.

 

[Dream]

Sometimes people can keep doing the same thing for centuries and not know they are following a teaching that is wrong, but they make themselves believe it for relief purposes, even though they are really as lost as most.

But it can't possibly happen to you. You are the center and we are on the outside, and that's justice. We are all locked inside your personal asylum, and we need you to bring us back to sanity.

 

[Princely]

But it can't possibly happen to you. You are the center and we are on the outside, and that's justice. We are all locked inside your personal asylum, and we need you to bring us back to sanity.

Princely Wrote;

The one who comes from above is above all; He who is of the world belongs to the world and speaks in a worldly way. The one who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies to what he has seen and heard, yet no one accepts his testimony. Whoever accepts his testimony certifies that God is truthful. The One whom is sent by God, He speaks the words of God. His gift of the spirit is not rationed. The Father loves the Son and has given everything over to him. Whoever believes in the Son possesses eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must the wrath of God.

"Truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above."
"Truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. Flesh makes flesh, spirit makes spirit. Do not be surprised that I tell you, you must all be born from above.

No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.

Whoever acts in truth comes into the light, and clearly sees the works he does in God. The word of the Lord is truth.

The son of man will come at a time you least expect. Stay awake or you won't know when your Lord will come.

I know the Lord and I keep His word. I came down from heaven to do the will of the Lord who sent me, not my own. Anyone who chooses to do His will shall know about this teaching , namely, whether it comes from God or I am merely speaking on my own.

 

[IowaGuy]

Sometimes people can keep doing the same thing for centuries and not know they are following a teaching that is wrong

How does a person know a right teaching from a wrong teaching?

If God says everyone must learn from Him, then it has to be that way

If God says homosexuality is to be punished by death (Leviticus 20:13), does it have to be that way? If God says bastards cannot enter into the congregation of the Lord (Deuteronomy 23:2), does it have to be that way?

My old church let bastards (those of illegitimate birth) attend service there, perhaps they are following a wrong teaching?

 

[Dream]

He who is of the world belongs to the world and speaks in a worldly way.

The Son of man is always under threat, abused and misjudged. He cannot stay in just one place without care or worry. He certainly doesn't make claims to strangers over the internet, but I am thinking of the old Son. You are the Son on the rise, so you can do that. Thank God for air conditioning!

 

[Quahom1]

Hi y'all, my sister and another Southern Baptist were recently discussing interpretations of Jesus' sheep parable; specifically John 10:16 - "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

How do some of you interpret this verse?

One argument I've heard is that the sheep "not of this fold" could be referring to folks of other religions such as Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc. In other words, they can still go to heaven even though they aren't Christians. But then that seems to contradict Jesus' earlier statement in the same chapter, when talking about leaders of the sheep in John 10:8 - "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them." This would seem to me to indicate that Krishna, Buddha, etc; any previous "Gods" were considered "thieves and robbers" from Jesus' point of view.

Another interpretation I've heard of John 10:16 is that the sheep "not of this fold" are ancient Native Americans, Africans, etc; peoples who were born before Jesus' time and were never exposed to his teachings. They could go to heaven even though they weren't officially Christians.

Another interpretation is that it's just a parable and doesn't override the specific message in other parts of the bible that only Christians will be in heaven.

Other thoughts on the verse? Is it saying non-Christians can go to heaven? Or something else?

Many of my family members struggle with the fact that someone they love (me) is not Christian and therefore will not join them in eternity (in their view). I personally am agnostic towards heaven/afterlife, but heaven/hell weighs very heavy on many of my family. I'm trying to convince my sister that this verse could possibly allow for non-Christians to be in heaven alongside Christians, as I hope it might give her some peace of mind. So far, no dice; but curious what thoughts the forum might have that I can ponder...

Jesus was never a Christian. Open her eyes with that fact. The bible also states that there are those in the heavens (humans/humanoids) that will be cared for. In Genesis it is stated that every man has the laws imprinted upon their hearts. "Deuterotamy I think."

Jesus never said "you must be a professed Christian." He said "No one comes to the Father but, through me." BIG DIFFERENCE.

We are also shown the way Jesus behaves in his death and resurrection. He is somewhere not here for two and a half days, pulling people out of a "limbo" if you will.

Do you believe? "Yes" Come with me.
Do you believe? "No" Then stay.

See, the "prove it to me" is only in life. In death there is only one of two answers the Lord will listen to.

So, my friend if you have questions, now is the time to ask God.

Oh and God will answer you. God never fails.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

IG,

It is a shame the way Christians pick and choose which parts of Christianity to believe and which parts to throw away. You are right about the death-to-homosexuals-and-bastards quotes, but Christians do not want to acknowledge these quotes.

 

[Quahom1]

IG,

It is a shame the way Christians pick and choose which parts of Christianity to believe and which parts to throw away. You are right about the death-to-homosexuals-and-bastards quotes, but Christians do not want to acknowledge these quotes.

You have no idea what you are talking about...none.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Q,

Have I misinterpreted the meaning of Leviticus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 23:2?

 

[radarmark]

Nick -- nope. I sneak into Born Again Meetings and these are used to justify bigotry against homosexuals and bastards. Wierd, I though Christ brought new wine that could not fit in the old wineskins.

Panta Rhei!
Everything Flows!

 

[Ben Masada]

All "we" know is that you have a personal belief that the story was made up (for no apparent reason); you base your belief on the profound misconception that the story was set during a time of mass slaughter which actually did not start until forty years later.

What you are telling me is that you have never read Josephus; because, He declares loud and clear that the Romans crucified thousands of Jews during their occupation of Israel much before the destruction of the Temple in 70 ACE. Therefore, the mas slaughter of Jews was mostly done during the regime of Pilate in Judea.

Josephus tells of a Roman soldier guarding the outer periphery of the Temple grounds during Passover, who started a major riot by dropping his pants and mooning the crowd. I am sure this was not "policy" but I don't therefore doubt that it happened.

Right, it was not a Roman policy to behave thus, as it was not to spear pierce crucifieds to check if they were dead or not.

That is precisely what Paul DENIED in 1st Corinthians, that the risen Jesus was the kind of "flesh" body who eats-and-excretes. It was the DISCIPLES IN JERUSALEM who taught that the risen Jesus ate and drank (in later times, it was especially the Ebionites, the Jewish Christians who followed James the Righteous and detested Paul, who emphasized that the risen Jesus ate).

The disciples of Jesus thought nothing of the sort. It was Luke, a Hellenistic former disciple of Paul's, who said that Jesus appeared to his disciples for 40 days after his passion with infallible proofs that he was not a spirit but a living man, eating and drinking just as he used to do before.(Acts 1:3; Luke 24:39-43)

Both Jews and Christians produced pseudepigraphic books (falsely attributed to noted figures from the past) by the bushel load. I am astounded that you take for granted the genuineness of dubious texts (nobody had ever heard of "epistles to Timothy" until Paul had been dead 100 years, and they aren't in Paul's style or native dialect), while casually dismissing texts which tell their stories straightforwardly with every appearance of honesty.

I have no problem with that. IMO, most of the Tanach was written rather by Ezra than by the Jews whose names entitle them. Besides, it doesn't matter to me; as long as Jews wrote the Jewish Scriptures and not Hellenistic Gentiles.

Ben