"God's" will, my will, free will ?

[IowaGuy]

Wanted to extract this conversation from the Human Nature thread to focus on the idea of God's will vs. my will vs. free will:

Can you give us an example of a deed of God? Can one see a deed of God without interacting with God? Do you consider the recent drought in Oklahoma/Texas a deed of God? ... What evidence do you have that what you perceive as divine intervention is anything more than just random coincidence?

I am not aware of any Christian who believes in absolute totalitarian free will.

Really, if you are going to be a "Hell and Brimstone" believer, you have to believe in radical free will. Or else you fall into the old Calvinist "we are all born predestined and ain't it just to bad I go to heaven and G!d will send you to hell" problem ... If you believe in Hell (eternal damnation and punishment), then you must believe in radical free will (G!d gave us that so "Thy will be done" is still met) ... The alternative, logically is to believe in eternal damnation and punishment on the whim of G!d. That is the damned did not have the free will to choose other than damnation, which is pretty much the OT and Socratic definition of injustice

Do you think of it as a loss of will to do someone else's will? ... Do you think God's will is that you have no freedom: a total dictator?

Why would I ever do someone else's will? Everything I do is a result of my will. Their will may coincide with my will, but I do it from my own will ... I think of "God" more like the Great Spirit, but without divine intervention or "will". Similar to Einsteins thoughts on no purpose in nature ... "God" is already in my life from a pantheist perspective as I am part of the greater essence as are you. But I don't view the Great Spirit as something I can have a conversation with.

Here's an example of free will that I like to ponder:

Person #1: a homeless girl, born in the slums of Mexico City, who begs on the street instead of going to school and therefore can't read or write.

Person #2: an upper-middle class girl, born to college-educated parents in the USA. Straight-A student in school.

Do these 2 girls have the same degree of "free will"? Are they equally likely to become: doctors, lawyers, criminals, prostitutes? Are they equally likely to do "God's will"?

 

[wil]

Here's an example of free will that I like to ponder:

Person #1: a homeless girl, born in the slums of Mexico City, who begs on the street instead of going to school and therefore can't read or write.

Person #2: an upper-middle class girl, born to college-educated parents in the USA.

Do these 2 girls have the same degree of "free will"? Are they equally likely to become: doctors, lawyers, prostitutes? Are they equally likely to do "God's will"?

I'm gonna speak in generalities as there are soooo many variables at could would be at play.

Same degree of free will, yes and no, they both have an infinite number of choices, the American though has a bigger infinite number accessable choices simply because she may have the opportunity to know more of them.

As to potential occupations....no....definitely different, but that has less to do with free will than environmental accessibilty.

Last one....I'd say without any indication of religious upbringing the Mexican girl is more likely to do G!d's will.

I say that because I don't believe many do....most plod around making themselves look better or trying not to make themselves look bad. We are material girls living in a material world....in your scenario the Mexican represents the less material and there are wonderful inights that can occur from that point despite Maslow's hierarchy...

 

[Etu Malku]

The misconception has always been in the way this is worded. It should be said as "Freedom of Will". This denotes the breaking away from another's Will, in this case the Abrahamic god's. It has nothing to do with freedom to make choices, such as getting an education, making a left, not picking one's nose, etc.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Wanted to extract this conversation from the Human Nature thread to focus on the idea of God's will vs. my will vs. free will:












Here's an example of free will that I like to ponder:

Person #1: a homeless girl, born in the slums of Mexico City, who begs on the street instead of going to school and therefore can't read or write.

Person #2: an upper-middle class girl, born to college-educated parents in the USA. Straight-A student in school.

Do these 2 girls have the same degree of "free will"? Are they equally likely to become: doctors, lawyers, criminals, prostitutes? Are they equally likely to do "God's will"?

i suppose one way of looking at it is that you get dealt a hand of cards and its up to you what you do with it, some people are dealt a really good one others a really crap one.

 

[wil]

i suppose one way of looking at it is that you get dealt a hand of cards and its up to you what you do with it, some people are dealt a really good one others a really crap one.

And some in the Mexican scenario will live a great life and talk about how blessed they were as without the way they started they would have never become what they did. And there will be some of the American variety will whine their entire life away that it just isn't fair.

 

[Etu Malku]

And some in the Mexican scenario will live a great life and talk about how blessed they were as without the way they started they would have never become what they did. And there will be some of the American variety will whine their entire life away that it just isn't fair.

Since we're creating scenarios here:
The probability is that the god-fearing Mexican girl will become beaten, sexually abused, and die, at the hands of other god-fearing Mexican scoundrels. Whereas, the American girl's parents are Luciferians and Free of Will, both have their own businesses and are sovereigns of their community, their daughter goes on to take over the family business and raise her own little Lucifers!

 

[radarmark]

As one of the originators quoted my IG, let me 'splain. By free will I mean the choice to act in accordance with what one wants to do at a specific time. That implies that the selection of choices are limited by reality (the universe outside the choosing agent).

Philosophically, legally, and ethically free will assumes "all other conditions being the same". Then the "choices" IG puts forward are not examples of what I (or philosophers) meant by "free will".

Do we have it? I can choose (and I think you can to, unless you have an infirmness) to look at the back of my hand or my palm. I can choose to experience life to the fullest I am able to or not. I am free to take my own life. It's no big thing, really, I am merely referring to what most of us experience.

What is G!d's will... I do not directly experience that. Nor do I experience some outside agency coming into my mind and making me do something (or just take over my body). Such things may be true, I do not know.

In reflexion (slient worship, concentrated thought, meditation, whatever) experience a "voice within" that whispers what G!d's will is. I take that whisper and compare it to the total of my knowledge-experience, run it past friends and others. I run with it if and only if I have sufficient grounds for belief. It is really not too much different from the scientific method.

My will? This is kinda a Nietschian (sp?) concept. I can will anything I want (perhaps in a Crowleyan sort of manner). Can I make it manifest? If I am that Hispanic Girl can I become blond and blue-eyed and a Nobel laureate. THe odds are real real close to zero.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt.

 

[Etu Malku]

As one of the originators quoted my IG, let me 'splain. By free will I mean the choice to act in accordance with what one wants to do at a specific time. That implies that the selection of choices are limited by reality (the universe outside the choosing agent).

Philosophically, legally, and ethically free will assumes "all other conditions being the same". Then the "choices" IG puts forward are not examples of what I (or philosophers) meant by "free will".

Wayelll, in my little Black Book that is Freedom of Choice and/or Liberterianism.

Do we have it? I can choose (and I think you can to, unless you have an infirmness) to look at the back of my hand or my palm. I can choose to experience life to the fullest I am able to or not. I am free to take my own life. It's no big thing, really, I am merely referring to what most of us experience.

Unfortunately, many under the chains of religion cannot Indulge in Life's Pleasures, they never dance with Pan, nor become drunk with Dionesyian madness! For what Man naturally enjoys and lusts for have Become Sins in their eyes.

What is G!d's will... I do not directly experience that. Nor do I experience some outside agency coming into my mind and making me do something (or just take over my body). Such things may be true, I do not know.

Neither do I

My will? This is kinda a Nietschian (sp?) concept. I can will anything I want (perhaps in a Crowleyan sort of manner). Can I make it manifest? If I am that Hispanic Girl can I become blond and blue-eyed and a Nobel laureate. THe odds are real real close to zero.

That would really be one helluva sorceress if she could do that!
In reality she could, through Magick, put herself into a better situation, marry a blonde, blue-eyed man, have a blonde, blue-eyed child who Becomes a Nobel laureate.

 

[radarmark]

Dear lord, I get defended by a devil-worshipper! Just kidding EM, I like that final line!

Hi, Friend!

 

[seattlegal]

Wayelll, in my little Black Book that is Freedom of Choice and/or Liberterianism.
Unfortunately, many under the chains of religion cannot Indulge in Life's Pleasures, they never dance with Pan, nor become drunk with Dionesyian madness! For what Man naturally enjoys and lusts for have Become Sins in their eyes.

Trade one form of slavery for another? Surely you are not endorsing becoming a slave to your own desires.

That would really be one helluva sorceress if she could do that!
In reality she could, through Magick, put herself into a better situation, marry a blonde, blue-eyed man, have a blonde, blue-eyed child who Becomes a Nobel laureate.

Well, she could always have the people at the beauty salon and the optician's office work their magic for the blonde hair and blue eyes. {Why she would want to, I don't know} As for having a blonde-haired blue eyed child who becomes a Nobel laureate, wouldn't that be imposing her will onto her own child?

I know my mother wanted me to become a lawyer, but I wasn't interested. Whenever anyone in my family tries to urge me into going into politics, I just look at them like they are from outer space!

 

[Etu Malku]

Trade one form of slavery for another? Surely you are not endorsing becoming a slave to your own desires.

I guess the idea is to Become Master over one's desires, they all have a time and place.

Well, she could always have the people at the beauty salon and the optician's office work their magic for the blonde hair and blue eyes. {Why she would want to, I don't know} As for having a blonde-haired blue eyed child who becomes a Nobel laureate, wouldn't that be imposing her will onto her own child?

I know my mother wanted me to become a lawyer, but I wasn't interested. Whenever anyone in my family tries to urge me into going into politics, I just look at them like they are from outer space!

Dat True

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

That's sad, do we give that poor girls only option of "success" as marrying and carrying children?
I know it wasn't the point, but it turned out poorly.

 

[seattlegal]

That's sad, do we give that poor girls only option of "success" as marrying and carrying children?
I know it wasn't the point, but it turned out poorly.

I'm glad you said it, so I didn't have to.

 

[Etu Malku]

Wait . . . the Pope hears of her distress through prayers to god ('cause ya know these guys talk to one another) sends someone to pick her up, bring her to the Vatican and . . . second thought, that'll NEVER happen, better off doing the marry/carry thang, yep.

 

[seattlegal]

Wait . . . the Pope hears of her distress through prayers to god ('cause ya know these guys talk to one another) sends someone to pick her up, bring her to the Vatican and . . . second thought, that'll NEVER happen, better off doing the marry/carry thang, yep.

LOL!
**Throws what's left of my fettuccine alfredo at Etu**

I'd like you to meet my friend, The Flying Spaghetti Monster!

 

[Bhaktajan II]

"God's" will, my will, free will

By Jove! Jeeves, I think you have summed it up quite nicely.

"God's will + my will + free will" = the trinity.

Now we need to attain a mutual Harmony that satiates our yearnings --to find the happy medium in our daily life.

It's a Yoga-Zen approach.

It's a winner!

 

[IowaGuy]

That's sad, do we give that poor girls only option of "success" as marrying and carrying children?

How do you know that's not "God's will"?

My sister, a Christian, believes in following God's will for our lives, yet she takes birth control pills. I say that's hypocritical, if she believes in God's will, let God decide how many kids she has.

If she decides to have only 2 kids and then takes birth control to prevent further pregnancies, isn't that HER will not GOD'S will?

 

[Etu Malku]

How do you know that's not "God's will"?

My sister, a Christian, believes in following God's will for our lives, yet she takes birth control pills. I say that's hypocritical, if she believes in God's will, let God decide how many kids she has.

If she decides to have only 2 kids and then takes birth control to prevent further pregnancies, isn't that HER will not GOD'S will?

Ughh . . . why would you leave it up to someone that rapes virgins? eek: that was baaaad, more fettuccine please)

 

[seattlegal]

eek: that was baaaad, more fettuccine please)

Sure!

**passes Etu a plate of fettuccine**

Hope you like the sun-dried tomatoes in it. {I'm such a heretic}

**hands Etu the nutmeg**

 

[radarmark]

<the quiet is interruptrd by chuckles which...>
<grow to graffahs>

EM and SG I really enjoy the banter, let us make it with pesto and no meat (I never eat anything that had a face).

<big icks>