"God's" will, my will, free will ?

QUITE!

{{The secret to Pesto is to toast the nuts ---I've used walnuts [in lieu of Pinolli aka Pine Nuts], that I crush first so as to get more coverage over the macaroni}}

BTW, did you know that on the 8th Day
God paid all his sub-contractors with
something He whipped up in a moment:
Pizza.

Preceeded by falafel, knishes, and chutney.

And finally Ice Cream and powdered Zepollis.

Apparently, God has good tastes once He puts His mind to it.
 
It is now apparent who's house "I'm" going over to for Autumnal Pagan Piggery!!
 
wil said:
I'd say without any indication of religious upbringing the Mexican girl is more likely to do G!d's will....in your scenario the Mexican represents the less material and there are wonderful inights that can occur from that point despite Maslow's hierarchy...
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Good insights, you & I have discussed in previous threads how coming from poverty one has a different perspective on life.

How would you define G!d's will? I tend to side with Einstein that nature/Great Spirit has no "will" or "purpose" for our lives. You seem to think differently, care to elaborate? How does one know that G!d has a will, or what that will is?

If a married couple can't have kids for medical reasons, is that G!d's will?

If an unmarried Kenyan woman has 15 kids, is that G!d's will?

If an infant dies from SIDS, is that G!d's will?

If Oklahoma has a record-breaking drought, is that G!d's will?
 
IowaGuy said:
Good insights, you & I have discussed in previous threads how coming from poverty one has a different perspective on life.

How would you define G!d's will? I tend to side with Einstein that nature/Great Spirit has no "will" or "purpose" for our lives. You seem to think differently, care to elaborate? How does one know that G!d has a will, or what that will is?

If a married couple can't have kids for medical reasons, is that G!d's will?

If an unmarried Kenyan woman has 15 kids, is that G!d's will?

If an infant dies from SIDS, is that G!d's will?

If Oklahoma has a record-breaking drought, is that G!d's will?
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My answer would be that any god one is apt to identify with is an archetype from within our unconsciousness, this god's Will (if you will, are you listening wil lol) is a huge meme, a part of what Jung termed the Collective Unconsciousness, it is really the culmination of multiple Wills throughout history.

Bottom line is that 'WE' empower these archetypes, such as an Abrahamic god, or a Greek god, or an Egyptian goddess, etc.
 
wil said:
we's anthropomorphizing again.
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OK, so would you agree with the statement "G!d has no will for humans"?

Would you agree with the statement: "G!d has no purpose for our lives"?
 
I have the belief that we are all one...and we develop that understanding over time.

However many lives it takes, in whatever form required.

that Jesus understood this, tried to tell us...

That G!d as principle as one, as love is all there is.

That eventually when scientists figure out the theory of everything they will understand how we are all connected and inter related.

Our purpose is to regain our understanding of oneness...

That we cannot harm another without harming ourcellves...

And we cannot help another without helping ourcelllves....

In this plane of existence we've been given a big blue ball, a body and other bodies to play with and learn from, and until we learn to take care of our toys we don't get anymore.

I think that answers your questions.

From a Christian point of view (hee hee)
 
wil said:
I have the belief that we are all one...and we develop that understanding over time.

However many lives it takes, in whatever form required.

that Jesus understood this, tried to tell us...

That G!d as principle as one, as love is all there is.

That eventually when scientists figure out the theory of everything they will understand how we are all connected and inter related.

Our purpose is to regain our understanding of oneness...

That we cannot harm another without harming ourcellves...

And we cannot help another without helping ourcelllves....

In this plane of existence we've been given a big blue ball, a body and other bodies to play with and learn from, and until we learn to take care of our toys we don't get anymore.

I think that answers your questions.

From a Christian point of view (hee hee)
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I like this a lot, and wgat you said is so perfect for this forum (we are trying to have an understanding and connectedness between Beliefs) . . . if I may add that this 'Oneness' of ourselves can also be looked at from the Platonic view in that we all have a Dæmon/Daimon/Guardian Angel/Higher-Self and this Dæmon exists one step above our spiritual awareness, as we spiritually evolve so does our Dæmon, to the pinnacle where our Dæmon is divine and 'we' are thus in communication with our divine Self, truly doing Our Will on Earth, of which the final step would be to Become a Dæmonic soul who's purpose is to raise yet another lost Soul to Divinity. This is the Luciferian philosophy I hold true.
 
IowaGuy said:
Do these 2 girls have the same degree of "free will"? Are they equally likely to become: doctors, lawyers, criminals, prostitutes? Are they equally likely to do "God's will"?
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Which doctor or lawyer does not prostitute themselves? Which lawyer is not a criminal? Does a doctor, a lawyer, a criminal, and a prostitute, have varying degrees of "free will"? Does a doctor, a lawyer, a criminal, or a prostitute, necessarily do or necessarily not do, God's will? If they necessarily do or necessarily do not do, then just how free are they?
 
luecy7 said:
Which doctor or lawyer does not prostitute themselves? Which lawyer is not a criminal? Does a doctor, a lawyer, a criminal, and a prostitute, have varying degrees of "free will"? Does a doctor, a lawyer, a criminal, or a prostitute, necessarily do or necessarily not do, God's will? If they necessarily do or necessarily do not do, then just how free are they?
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So there is no free will, in you opinion?

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
 
When considering God's will, my will, free will, make sure you don't inadvertently think of God as an entity, or as something within a temporal construct ... this error usually turns up the argument that if God knows what I am going to do, then I don't have free will.

God bless

Thomas
 
Schopenhauer's concept of Freedom of Will consists of three types of freedom, physical, intellectual, and moral. Physical freedom is the absence of physical obstacles. Intellectual freedom results when the mind is not affected by extreme passion. Moral freedom is the absence of the influence of motives on a person's actions. Yet the question of Cause and Affect arises. When a person observes the external world, they will find that any change in one thing was immediately preceded by a change in some other thing.

Nietzsche too wrote of The Law of Causality, or Ex Nihilo Nihil, and states that everything has a cause. Freedom of Will then in fact means: Power of Will (The Antichrist, 14). Will has power over actions, over many things; Therefore, things are determined by Will. Nietzsche's pious man becomes godless because of the power of his values, of the Will for truthfulness. One can cause influence only on something that exists and through induction, any act would change everything from that moment onwards.

So in conclusion, my belief is that as long as a person maintains their faith in a god, other than their own Inner God, they are not truly Free of Will.
 
Jee Whiz, let me rephrase that (my apologies, EM, I was still in seek and destroy mode).

So, per your arguement (supported by S&N), is that as long as unquestioned belief (faith) and not logic and science (including math and reasoning) remains as the foundation of a person's view-of-life (metaphysical outlook), the person in question has no free will.

In the higher sense (I think, but cannot proove) this may well be. However, being a little old and slow of wit, I cannot help but return to my example (trivial and minimalist as it may be). Does that person of faith have the free will to choose to look at her or his own palm or back of the hand? Is this an example of free will.

Maybe the truth lays somewhere between the extermes.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
 
radarmark said:
Jee Whiz, let me rephrase that (my apologies, EM, I was still in seek and destroy mode).

So, per your arguement (supported by S&N), is that as long as unquestioned belief (faith) and not logic and science (including math and reasoning) remains as the foundation of a person's view-of-life (metaphysical outlook), the person in question has no free will.

In the higher sense (I think, but cannot proove) this may well be. However, being a little old and slow of wit, I cannot help but return to my example (trivial and minimalist as it may be). Does that person of faith have the free will to choose to look at her or his own palm or back of the hand? Is this an example of free will.

Maybe the truth lays somewhere between the extermes.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
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I think we are free to do what we want, but also that our wants derive from many factors, of which we have little control over. Perhaps we have an illusion of free will, but not true freedom of will. There are just too many things that play on our decision making to truly consider ourselves "free" (IMO).
 
radarmark said:
Jee Whiz, let me rephrase that (my apologies, EM, I was still in seek and destroy mode).

So, per your arguement (supported by S&N), is that as long as unquestioned belief (faith) and not logic and science (including math and reasoning) remains as the foundation of a person's view-of-life (metaphysical outlook), the person in question has no free will.

In the higher sense (I think, but cannot proove) this may well be. However, being a little old and slow of wit, I cannot help but return to my example (trivial and minimalist as it may be). Does that person of faith have the free will to choose to look at her or his own palm or back of the hand? Is this an example of free will.

Maybe the truth lays somewhere between the extermes.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
Click to expand...
I would say that in a physical sense we have little say in the matter, we are susceptible to entropy, to the Laws of Physics. That yes, Faith in a doctrine of another's Will (god in this case) is not having Freedom of Will, your Will is not being done, the Will of another's is being done.
Does that person of faith have the free will to choose to look at her or his own palm or back of the hand? Is this an example of free will.
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Again I cannot see this as anything more than freedom of choice, which to me is not Freedom of Will.

Let me put it this way; God wishes you to be, act, and think a certain way, this is you under god's Will. Of course you can say that it is your freedom of choice/Will to follow the Will of god, but that makes little sense to me as it negates the word Free.

Another philosophical problem is that most people consider this god to be omniscient/omnipotent therefore god already knows the outcome of your actions, no matter how much you believe you have chosen freely this or that, it is ultimately the Will of an omniscient god, therefore you are have not Freedom of Will.
 
Etu Malku said:
Another philosophical problem is that most people consider this god to be omniscient/omnipotent therefore god already knows the outcome of your actions, no matter how much you believe you have chosen freely this or that, it is ultimately the Will of an omniscient god, therefore you are have not Freedom of Will.
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Etu - you have said in other threads that you are agnostic with regards to the existence of "God", and that you consider yourself to have Freedom of Will.

Using your above logic, your Freedom of Will is dependent on the existence of an omniscient God. If God exists and knows the outcome of your actions, Etu doesn't truly have Freedom of Will. If God doesn't exist, you truly do have Freedom of Will.

So, using your logic, not only are you agnostic with regards to God you are agnostic with regards to your Freedom of Will.
 
IowaGuy said:
Etu - you have said in other threads that you are agnostic with regards to the existence of "God", and that you consider yourself to have Freedom of Will.

Using your above logic, your Freedom of Will is dependent on the existence of an omniscient God. If God exists and knows the outcome of your actions, Etu doesn't truly have Freedom of Will. If God doesn't exist, you truly do have Freedom of Will.

So, using your logic, not only are you agnostic with regards to God you are agnostic with regards to your Freedom of Will.
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Ahhhh!!! This does get quite complicated I suppose, and I certainly do not hold the answers to all of this.

That said; I do not believe there to be any form of god except that which is an archetype within the mind/imagination. I do not subscribe to another's Beliefs, I only have My Beliefs. My rebuttals are probably more confusing than explanatory in the sense that I do not believe on god, but tend to 'try' and explain everything as if I did believe there to be One.

On another hand, I do try to be diplomatic and sympathetic with my ramblings, I am however saying that "those who believe in a god are wrong" without ever just saying it as blatantly and rude as that.

Last Word; there have been several rebuttals to my side posted here and some of them really have me thinking and reading, so this is a healthy forum practice in a healthy forum.
 
Etu Malku said:
That yes, Faith in a doctrine of another's Will (god in this case) is not having Freedom of Will, your Will is not being done, the Will of another's is being done.
Again I cannot see this as anything more than freedom of choice, which to me is not Freedom of Will.
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Hmm, do you mean to say that religious people make choices from what they learn their religion and have thus no free will(Will). But a person who is raised without religion have free will?

I would say that the two learn different rules of conduct and consequences, but it's still just a list of rules. What I mean is that an atheist might have his will limited by other factors.
 
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