"God's" will, my will, free will ?

Thought experiment:

What would be more precious to an omnipotent being than something that was not a product of this omnipotence?

What sort of test would an omnipotent being have to make sure all the phenomena where not all delusion--a product of this being's all-powerful mind?

Wouldn't one have to let go of ones power in order to test this?
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
Hmm, do you mean to say that religious people make choices from what they learn their religion and have thus no free will(Will). But a person who is raised without religion have free will?

I would say that the two learn different rules of conduct and consequences, but it's still just a list of rules. What I mean is that an atheist might have his will limited by other factors.
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Both religion and irreligion can become handy excuses to close ones mind.
 
seattlegal said:
What sort of test would an omnipotent being have to make sure all the phenomena where not all delusion--a product of this being's all-powerful mind?

Wouldn't one have to let go of ones power in order to test this?
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One would not need to let go of power nor even run such a test if one was omniscient in addition to omnipotent.
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
What I mean is that an atheist might have his will limited by other factors.
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This is a good insight, ACOT. Of the people I have met in my time on this planet, Christians tend to believe more in free will than agnostics & atheists. Agnostics & atheists, in my experience, tend to have their will limited by their own faith in science; particularly genetics, psychology, and sociology. (a broad generalization but generally true in my experience)

It's the BELIEF in free will that is important to live one's life to the fullest, to take responsibility for one's actions, and for society to prosper. Whether or not we actually have free will, or whether it's all just an illusion, is irrelevant when it's all said & done.
 
I see the work of neuro-scientists such as John-Dylan Haynes suggests that our brain makes decisions prior to us being consciously aware of it, obviously creating difficulty for our common understanding of the term 'free will.' Apparently I may have made the decision to google this research up to 10 seconds before I, er, decided to do it. :eek:
 
Snoopy said:
I see the work of neuro-scientists such as John-Dylan Haynes suggests that our brain makes decisions prior to us being consciously aware of it, obviously creating difficulty for our common understanding of the term 'free will.' Apparently I may have made the decision to google this research up to 10 seconds before I, er, decided to do it. :eek:
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You have just explained Jung's "Collective Unconsciousness"
 
Snoopy said:
I see the work of neuro-scientists such as John-Dylan Haynes suggests that our brain makes decisions prior to us being consciously aware of it, obviously creating difficulty for our common understanding of the term 'free will.' Apparently I may have made the decision to google this research up to 10 seconds before I, er, decided to do it. :eek:
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Etu Malku said:
You have just explained Jung's "Collective Unconsciousness"
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Dang! +1 for both of you!

{Thanks for connecting the dots for me--I feel like such a dweeb! *doh*}
 
radarmark said:
So there is no free will, in you opinion?

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
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There is free will. If there is just one single neuron that is left under my control, then that is where I, per my will, have the freedom to exercise it.
 
radarmark said:
...is that as long as unquestioned belief (faith) and not logic and science (including math and reasoning)...
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Your understanding and knowledge of faith is apparently non-existant. You prefer to think of it as an untested belief, instead of thinking of the relationship between people.
 
Etu Malku said:
I would say that in a physical sense we have little say in the matter, we are susceptible to entropy, to the Laws of Physics.
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That's because we're finite creatures ... but within that.

Etu Malku said:
Faith in a doctrine of another's Will (god in this case) is not having Freedom of Will, your Will is not being done, the Will of another's is being done.
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Wrong. We all will according to what we understand, so an agnostic's mind is formed in the same way the faithful's mind is formed ... no-one wills in a vacuum or a void.

My decision to conform myself to a given tradition is a free act of will, as is yours to conform yourself to what you believe.

Etu Malku said:
Again I cannot see this as anything more than freedom of choice, which to me is not Freedom of Will.
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'choice' implies freedom, without freedom, without choice.

Etu Malku said:
Of course you can say that it is your freedom of choice/Will to follow the Will of god, but that makes little sense to me as it negates the word Free.
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No it doesn't, as the decision to follow another is, in the first instance, a free act of will. After that, it's a dialogue of hierarchy. People are free to follow the will of another or not.

Etu Malku said:
Another philosophical problem is that most people consider this god to be omniscient/omnipotent therefore god already knows the outcome of your actions, no matter how much you believe you have chosen freely this or that, it is ultimately the Will of an omniscient god, therefore you are have not Freedom of Will.
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Bad philosophy ... it's a false premise.

It treats God like a temporal entity. God is not a temporal entity, nor does the fact that anyone knows you are going to do something mean they are the cause of your action ... ask a parent.

God bless,

Thomas
 

time-travel back 2 billion years
to the young earth with its new ocean
suddenly teeming with single-celled life

each cell competing against every other single-cell for available nutrients

eventually (by accident) some of these individual cells bump up against each other
& cluster
& find that together they can corral more nutrients-per-cell than they can traveling solo
(they're called eukaryotic organisms)

these clusters organize in better & better (more efficient) ways

what started as an accidental physical event of contact
becomes a concerted drive toward community-building
(building an entirely new kind of eco-system , in the process)

many of the scientists who look at this clustering phenomenon , see it as
a very basic (but very real) evidence of intelligence at work in nature

let the "heroic" single-cells go it alone , if they want
but the "meek"
(who surrender a portion of their "free-will" to community-building)
shall inherit the earth
(sharing is the more intelligent thing to do , nutrient-wise)

(down thru the drama of evolution)
are the heroic solo figures (like reptiles) more "free" ?
more free than the intelligent communal figures (like mammals) ?

aboriginal single-cells are "designed" (genetically) to survive alone , my friend Stevi points out
except that the course of evolution
works against aboriginal design
yes , that is what intelligence does

intelligence is a "results-oriented" (Pragmatic) law of nature

Stevi quips (only half-jokingly)
the Second Law of Evolution should define life as
intelligent anti-design

& maybe that is what u each should be talking about
& not (de-contextualized & ungrounded) abstractions about "freedom"

 
Luecy7, I was using "faith" in one way and you are using it in another, both are perfectly acceptable English definitions. I have a lot of faith in people (that I know or know of) I have nearly infinate faith in People (as a plural), they usually figure out what is good and true and right (even if they do occasionally vote for real wiedos)

Pax et amore vincunt omnia!
 
radarmark said:
I have a lot of faith in people (that I know or know of) I have nearly infinate faith in People (as a plural), they usually figure out what is good and true and right (even if they do occasionally vote for real wiedos)
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What is the measure of faith of a person who uses a fist against another? What is the measure of faith of a person who carries a weapon to threaten people with? I don't think you believe in faith.
 
Oh, now we are geetting a little personal. I am a human being and have made mistakes, let that be known. I do not know why you amke this charge... because I was military? I was trying to help others (you may choode not to believe that, but your believe does not make it so). Because I worked with nuclear weapons? I no longer do (by choice). I happen to believe they (during my era) kept the world from experiencing a third world war. That is who I was, I have both confessed and comptemplated my sins such as they may be.

Fine, I can live (and do live) in a world where someone does not have faith in me to express my beliefs without lying (which is really what this comes down to).

I believe by your response have shown thou shouldst remove the planck from your eye before you point out the mote in mine.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
 
luecy7 said:
What is the measure of faith of a person who uses a fist against another? What is the measure of faith of a person who carries a weapon to threaten people with? I don't think you believe in faith.
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Interesting here would be early Man and the formulation of religious tenets. For it was the strongest Man in the tribe that was also the religious figure, most of history's religious figures were also more than competent warriors.

FIST equaled FAITH . . . perhaps it still does?
 
IowaGuy said:
Wanted to extract this conversation from the Human Nature thread to focus on the idea of God's will vs. my will vs. free will:

Here's an example of free will that I like to ponder:

Person #1: a homeless girl, born in the slums of Mexico City, who begs on the street instead of going to school and therefore can't read or write.

Person #2: an upper-middle class girl, born to college-educated parents in the USA. Straight-A student in school.

Do these 2 girls have the same degree of "free will"? Are they equally likely to become: doctors, lawyers, criminals, prostitutes? Are they equally likely to do "God's will"?
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IMHO, there is no such a thing as the distinction between "my will" and "free will." Since we, as humans, have all been granted with the attribute of freewill, it has become our will. Therefore, my will and freewill is one and the same. Now, God's will is something else.While freewill is something we have acquired, which becomes what we have, in God, freewill is inherent in His essence; that's what He is. On the other hand, I do not believe that God interferes with man's freewill. (Gen. 4:6,7; Deut. 30:15-19)

In the cases of the girls above, they are not to have the same destiny but they will have no one to blame for but themselves for having exercised their freewill they way they chose, notwithstanding the way they had been brought up. One's destiny is molded by one's own use of his or her freewill. Therefore, they had the same degree of freewill, no matter the circunstances.
Ben
 
radarmark said:
Oh, now we are geetting a little personal. I am a human being and have made mistakes, let that be known. I do not know why you amke this charge... because I was military? I was trying to help others (you may choode not to believe that, but your believe does not make it so). Because I worked with nuclear weapons? I no longer do (by choice). I happen to believe they (during my era) kept the world from experiencing a third world war. That is who I was, I have both confessed and comptemplated my sins such as they may be.

Fine, I can live (and do live) in a world where someone does not have faith in me to express my beliefs without lying (which is really what this comes down to).

I believe by your response have shown thou shouldst remove the planck from your eye before you point out the mote in mine.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
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You claimed your faith in people was nearly infinite. You also said a few things about free will in association with faith. That is the information I drew from. The extent of my relationships is far more limited than 'infinite'. I am personally unaware of anything you are saying about your life beyond what your words reveal.
 
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