The Only Way to Escape Hell

[Nick the Pilot]

SG.

It is one thing to have one person forgive another person. It is a different thing to say God forgives our sins. Regarding the first issue, everyone agrees that people should be forgiving, and no one thinks there is an issue with this regarding Buddhism vs. Christianity. Regarding the second issue, Buddhism teaches the idea of karma over the idea of the forgiveness of sins. (I contend Jesus also originally taught the idea of karma over the idea of the forgiveness of sins, but the idea of the forgiveness of sins was added later.)

You said,

"Purify the mind, and there's nothing left to keep you in hell except..."

--> Are you saying Buddhism does not teach the idea of burning off bad karma, especially the idea of burning it off in hell?

 

[seattlegal]

SG.

It is one thing to have one person forgive another person. It is a different thing to say God forgives our sins. Regarding the first issue, everyone agrees that people should be forgiving, and no one thinks there is an issue with this regarding Buddhism vs. Christianity. Regarding the second issue, Buddhism teaches the idea of karma over the idea of the forgiveness of sins. (I contend Jesus also originally taught the idea of karma over the idea of the forgiveness of sins, but the idea of the forgiveness of sins was added later.)

You said,

"Purify the mind, and there's nothing left to keep you in hell except..."

--> Are you saying Buddhism does not teach the idea of burning off bad karma, especially the idea of burning it off in hell?

Read lines 1-2 again. Karma resides in the mind. Impure mind-->suffering follows. (hell--suffering) Pure mind-->happiness follows.

The idea of renunciation and forgiveness came before Buddhism and Christianity. (It's listed in the Gita)

Buddha also spoke of renunciation in regards to purifying the mind.
Upakkilesa Samyutta: Defilements

 

[Nick the Pilot]

SG,

Thank you for sharing your interpretation of Buddhism. It is always good to see the different belief systems we all have. But I am going to stick with the idea that a record of the bad things we do is kept, and that one day we must pay off our karmic debts.

"The idea of renunciation and forgiveness came before Buddhism and Christianity."

--> Divine forgiveness or human forgiveness?

 

[seattlegal]

SG,

Thank you for sharing your interpretation of Buddhism. It is always good to see the different belief systems we all have. But I am going to stick with the idea that a record of the bad things we do is kept, and that one day we must pay off our karmic debts.

"The idea of renunciation and forgiveness came before Buddhism and Christianity."

--> Divine forgiveness or human forgiveness?

Well according to Jesus, it's the same thing. "Forgive, and you will be forgiven, if you don't forgive, neither will my Father in heaven forgive you" sort of thing. (There is the sinning against the spirit sort of thing, however. I suppose it might be some sort of mechanism to keep from stomping all over mercy. That would be in the realm of speculation regarding the precise outworking of karma, which Buddha warned would lead to madness and vexation.)

 

[Nick the Pilot]

SG,

The good news is, we can agree to disagree on this, and do it in a friendly and cordial way, instead of yelling at one another. I am glad to see your personal belief system works as well for you as mine does for me.

 

[seattlegal]

SG,

The good news is, we can agree to disagree on this, and do it in a friendly and cordial way, instead of yelling at one another. I am glad to see your personal belief system works as well for you as mine does for me.

Indeed!

John 13:34-35

Jesus said:

34 "I give you a new commandment: love one another. Just as I have loved you, you must also love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."​

 

[Dream]

I was born now and not at his time. If I had been born at his time, I would have fought him as vehemently as I do now. But that's okay; he has many disciples on the front making his Christianity stronger and stronger. My hands are full, as I have a lot of work to do.

Those persons generally don't stay long on interfaith.org; however yes there are many. Slightly off-topic but there is an increasingly large MJ movement in the USA, and it is a developing movement changing shape all the time. Parts of it dismiss Paul, and parts of it doesn't. Some parts incorporate the more Catholic dogmas like trinity and also modern Christian items like glossolalia. I have mentioned this before but even when I was a child, Christians were going to Israel as missionaries. I recall that CBN has some radio equipment over there.

If your personal responsibility is to refute Paul, then yes you have huge amounts of work ahead of you. You must think out of the box, and you should get the assistance of churches if you want to counter the MJ movement. As it is you are only pressing from one side, and it has two. You are going to need all kinds of help, and you should start looking for it. You should also have a Facebook page, learn how to Twitter and definitely two or three web sites with all of your friends linking to them to help your search rankings.

 

[Ben Masada]

This precept would then involve self-commitment then, no? That is exactly what freedom takes!

Freedom comes as a result of the attribute of freewill God has granted to humans. So, we are absolutely free to do whatever we want, as long as we are aware of the law of cause and effect.

You will notice that Jesus did say that it was a new commandment. However, it really isn't new. He was introducing dharma/dhamma/maat/alethia into the teachings as a means by which to escape hell.

First of all, we never know what or how much of what Jesus said, he did say it. The gospels were written about 50+ years after Jesus had been gone; and by Hellenistic Gentiles who had never seen him. Second, I am ready to accept 20 percent of what Jesus said as coming from him and about him. The other 70 percent are made out of pious forgeries by the Church. Third, since love is not subject to commandments, Jesus did not say that he was giving a new commandment. Fourth, I am glad to see that you admit yourself that it really was nothing new after all. And last but not least, hell is possible to exist only by means of parables or allegories.

Here are some comparisons: Luke 6

Jesus said: 27 "But I say to you who listen: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If anyone hits you on the cheek, offer the other also. And if anyone takes away your coat, don't hold back your shirt either. 30 Give to everyone who asks from you, and from one who takes away your things, don't ask for them back. 31 Just as you want others to do for you, do the same for them. 32 If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 If you do [what is] good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do [what is] good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is gracious to the ungrateful and evil. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

This is a way of life proper only to those who are activated by the emotions of masochism. Even Jesus was not thus. Therefore, the text did not come out of his mouth. Reasons? It is impossible to love one's enemy; when Jesus was buffetted on his face at his appearance before Annas, instead of turning the other face, he demanded an explanation for having been hit on the face. Read John 18:22,23. How could Jesus teach something that he would not observe himself? And our relationship with one another is personal, God is not. Therefore, God cannot be compared to us.

to this:

Dhammapada 1:1-6 1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

This is nothing more nor less than the law of cause and effect.

You can choose to take me seriously or not.

Yes, now, you do seem to be serious.

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

Those persons generally don't stay long on interfaith.org; however yes there are many. Slightly off-topic but there is an increasingly large MJ movement in the USA, and it is a developing movement changing shape all the time. Parts of it dismiss Paul, and parts of it doesn't. Some parts incorporate the more Catholic dogmas like trinity and also modern Christian items like glossolalia. I have mentioned this before but even when I was a child, Christians were going to Israel as missionaries. I recall that CBN has some radio equipment over there.

If your personal responsibility is to refute Paul, then yes you have huge amounts of work ahead of you. You must think out of the box, and you should get the assistance of churches if you want to counter the MJ movement. As it is you are only pressing from one side, and it has two. You are going to need all kinds of help, and you should start looking for it. You should also have a Facebook page, learn how to Twitter and definitely two or three web sites with all of your friends linking to them to help your search rankings.

Yours is a good idea about flocking with those of the same feather as mine, although, Jews, in general, shy away from Christian missionaries. Here in Israel I have held several face-to-face encounters with Christian missionaries from abroad, as Catholics from Finlandia, Jehovah Witnesses from America, as well as Mormons, and Seventh-Day Adventists; but the majority is from the Messianic Jews and Jews-for-Jesus movements. Almost every Shabbat in the afternoon.
Ben

 

[IowaGuy]

Therefore, the text did not come out of his mouth. Reasons? It is impossible to love one's enemy

In addition to Christianity, Buddhism also teaches to love one's enemy. HHDL says we should cherish our enemies as if we had found a hidden treasure, for they create opportunities for personal & spritual growth that we would not have otherwise.

I would think most enlightened beings would agree we should love our enemies (or at least work towards that goal). So I would think that that text could certainly have come out of Jesus' mouth.

 

[seattlegal]

In addition to Christianity, Buddhism also teaches to love one's enemy. HHDL says we should cherish our enemies as if we had found a hidden treasure, for they create opportunities for personal & spritual growth that we would not have otherwise.

I would think most enlightened beings would agree we should love our enemies (or at least work towards that goal). So I would think that that text could certainly have come out of Jesus' mouth.

I would love to hear your opinion about this post. If I'm delusional, dispel those delusions!

 

[Dream]

Seattlegal, I'm feeling a little lost. After reading some of your information about dhamma and the entire article about Tulkus, I'm still not certain where Tulkus come into it. They are born out of compassion...even for enemies? You are talking about loving an enemy, I think, possibly the reincarnating type.

 

[seattlegal]

Seattlegal, I'm feeling a little lost. After reading some of your information about dhamma and the entire article about Tulkus, I'm still not certain where Tulkus come into it. They are born out of compassion...even for enemies? You are talking about loving an enemy, I think, possibly the reincarnating type.

Sorry Dream, just had a crazy thought that the Magi who were looking for baby Jesus might have been like the Tibetan Buddhists when they go out looking for their newly reincarnated Lamas. (They consult an oracle, then look for signs based on the results of the oracle, and take gifts with them that belonged to the person for whom they are looking for the reincarnation of along with them. When they find a child whom they might think is the reincarnated Lama, they present him with these gifts to see if he recognizes them.)

Just a passing crazy thought. :/

 

[Dream]

Far from crazy, but the magi may have been from any country. If I were king of country X and wanted the best astrological data here is what I would do: I'd have my royal astrologer first predict for me many things from the stars, and then I'd send out officials to check what he said. If he made accurate predictions I would hire him. It may have been a common occurrence for things like this to happen.

 

[seattlegal]

Far from crazy, but the magi may have been from any country. If I were king of country X and wanted the best astrological data here is what I would do: I'd have my royal astrologer first predict for me many things from the stars, and then I'd send out officials to check what he said. If he made accurate predictions I would hire him. It may have been a common occurrence for things like this to happen.

I have heard they also use astrology and whatever tools they can to find the child. Here's the story of one they found in my area a while back. Notice how both the boy's mother and father had dreams about him before his birth, like Mary and Joseph.

Seattle Boy, 4, Enthroned as a Lama in Nepal - NYTimes.com

 

[Dream]

You were lucky seattlegal, but now you have let them take your golden boy away. Surely he should stay in the town where he chose to be born.

 

[seattlegal]

Dang it! I thought your post said something about it developing into a form of governance, which I didn't even think of. Did you edit your post, Dream, or am I seeing things?

 

[Princely]

Let's start here:


This precept would then involve self-commitment then, no? That is exactly what freedom takes!

You will notice that Jesus did say that it was a new commandment. However, it really isn't new. He was introducing dharma/dhamma/maat/alethia into the teachings as a means by which to escape hell.

Here are some comparisons:
Luke 6

Jesus said:

27 "But I say to you who listen: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If anyone hits you on the cheek, offer the other also. And if anyone takes away your coat, don't hold back your shirt either. 30 Give to everyone who asks from you, and from one who takes away your things, don't ask for them back. 31 Just as you want others to do for you, do the same for them. 32 If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 If you do [what is] good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do [what is] good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is gracious to the ungrateful and evil. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.​

to this:

Dhammapada 1:1-6

1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.
3. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.
4. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.
5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal. {Pali source reads "dhammo sanantano," aka santana dharma--sg}

6. There are those who do not realize that one day we all must die. But those who do realize this settle their quarrels.​

Christianity is full of admonishments to "make your mind over," and to "put on the new personality." It also speaks about the "Spirit of Truth" and the "Law of Freedom," and of taming the emotions, just as the older concepts of dharma/dhamma/maat do.

You can choose to take me seriously or not.

Princely Wrote: You do not understand what the son of man says or said.It was a new commandment but made known to His followers as He said He would reveal himself to them.It is not loving some one as man loves but as God does, as the Father loves the Son. People need to look deeper and find out what love is to God.Like the Lord said; "My ways are not your ways nor are your thoughts my thoughts as high as the heavens are above the earth that is how high my ways are above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts".

Thus says the Lord;

'Love is what I want not sacrifice, knowledge of God not holocaust".

Deut;
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands.

The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.

For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

Kings;

"O LORD, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven above or on earth below--you who keep your covenant of love with your servants who continue wholeheartedly in your way.

Psalm;But I trust in your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in your salvation.

for your love is ever before me, and I walk continually in your truth.

The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth will be filled with his unfailing love.

Continue your love to those who know you, your righteousness to the upright in heart.

As the Lord has loved me so I have Loved you. Live on in my love.You will live in my love if you keep my commandments just as I have kept His commandments and live in His love.

 

[Dream]

Dang it! I thought your post said something about it developing into a form of governance, which I didn't even think of. Did you edit your post, Dream, or am I seeing things?

Sorry. Yes, in Tibet it developed into a form of governance, though not a full governance. I read this article, which has only 4 pages and does a spiffy job of summarizing the history of various Dalai Lamas, interplay with the various countries and major players.

 

[Ben Masada]

In addition to Christianity, Buddhism also teaches to love one's enemy. HHDL says we should cherish our enemies as if we had found a hidden treasure, for they create opportunities for personal & spritual growth that we would not have otherwise.

I would think most enlightened beings would agree we should love our enemies (or at least work towards that goal). So I would think that that text could certainly have come out of Jesus' mouth.

Simply religious rhetoric with an agenda outside reality. They know much better that we are humans, but they have a hypocrite agenda to promote themselves. What we owe to enemies is respect, if we don't want to suffer the consequences as a result of the law of cause and effect.
Ben