Ben Masada
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But Really, Why Was Jesus Crucified?
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And Judaism promoted a distorted picture of Pharaoh Akhenaten's Atum through an Egyptian born and raised Moses?
Ben Masada
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You remind me of my World History Professor. A master of details. But, if you don't mind, I still stick to the point that Palestinians originated rather with the Arabs who invaded the Land of Israel in the 7th Century than to relate them to the Philistines, whom we know only too well, were not of the Arabic race. But I do make you justice to acknowledge the Roman change of Israel into Philistia. But we are back, and with power only compared to the time of the Hasmonians. Therefore, the Land of Israel is back.
Ben
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Two points here: First, according to Luke in Acts 1:3, when Jesus started appearing to his disciples for 40 days, he declared that it was after his passion, meaning his sufferings on the cross. After one's passion does not even mean that he died, let alone that he resurrected. He could have survived the cross. And for the second poin, if you show me in your NT an eyewitness to Jesus' resurrection, I'll quit being Jewish and become a Christian. Please, don't try to recover a "pound of flesh" here because I said an "eyewitness" and not simply a witness. That's quite a difference.
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radarmark
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oooooooh, ben, you raised up the rock expecting to find H!m there. You will not. You are correct, as I remember, Matthew has the two Marys seeing the resurrected Christ who tells them that H! will be awaiting the Disciples in Galilee. Mark ends with someone saying meet H!m in Galilee. Luke and John both have "encounters on the road" (strangely parallel to Paul's). I might be wrong, but I think the Matthew scene is the closest to "seeing" the resurrection, but the tomb was already empty.
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Oh, I am sorry Dream, but I am afraid I can't help you with that one. I thought about the Jewish Encyclopedia but... it is too general and not specifically a book about the matter you are interested in. How about googling on the subject? I believe you could be more successful that way.
Ben
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And Judaism promoted a distorted picture of Pharaoh Akhenaten's Atum through an Egyptian born and raised Moses?
Not really. According to the Talmud, the Levites were allowed by Pharaoh to study and be exonerated from the general slave work. As soon as Moses found out he was an Israelite and not an Egyptian, he was endoctrinated in the Abrahamic religion by the Levites and rather adopted the legitimate Patriarchal Monotheism and quit the Akhenaten Monotheism of one pagan god, the sun, istead of the prior Amon variety of gods.
Ben
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Hold on Radarmark before you scare me. No one saw Jesus rising from the tomb. That's what I mean by an eyewitness. Even the so-called angel of Matthew, when he came down and removed the stone, he saw that the tomb was empty. And he even asked the women why were they looking for the living among the dead. As you can see, even the angel was cheated from being an eyewitness.
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What is the Talmud yet another religious text written by men for men?
How was Moses an Israelite? He was born in Egypt.
How could Moses be indoctrinated into a religion that wasn't born yet?
It's just too coincidental that Moses would start his own religion that almost perfectly mirrored that of Akhenaten's. Sun = God = Son of God = Messiah.
And there were no 'real' slaves in Egypt either . . . now THAT is a myth.
How was Moses an Israelite? He was born in Egypt.
How could Moses be indoctrinated into a religion that wasn't born yet?
It's just too coincidental that Moses would start his own religion that almost perfectly mirrored that of Akhenaten's. Sun = God = Son of God = Messiah.
And there were no 'real' slaves in Egypt either . . . now THAT is a myth.
Ben Masada said:
In her introduction to Maimonides’ Epistle to Yemen (quoted above), Isadore Twersky refers to Christianity and Islam as Judaism’s “daughter religions.” To my ear, the cleverer rejoinder was coined by Jaroslav Pelikan who said that Judaism is not Christianity’s mother, it is Christianity’s mother-in-law.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
We have a saying that no good deed goes unpunished? Why do we say that?
Christ, like Saviors and Prophets both before and since, received the usual warm welcome that has always greeted such pure hearts and devoted minds. Countless disciples, of every world tradition, know in essence - if not in every particular - what Christ was forced to endure. I do not mean martyrdom, since many times the world server must endure a lifetime of apparently unappreciated, often challenged and misunderstood, Loving Service. Such Devoted Ones have gone to their graves unknown to the world at large, yet living to a ripe old age and serving Humanity even unto their last day on the planet.
Christ received the greatest repayment of all for what He brought to Humanity. He was rejected, slandered, doubted and 2100 years later, He remains one of the most enigmatic of historical figures ... even though the whole future course of Western religion in some ways still rests - in Jesus' hands.
As Chesterton points out, Christianity was found too difficult ... and thus left largely untried. Those precious few who have trodden the Higher Way and found their Soul's Salvation according to the Christian Path, KNOW that the Sacrifice and the Devotion, the questioning and at times, confused emotion ~ was well worth it. The rest of us may perhaps Aspire, and one day we shall come into our own.
Let us NOT do as the Sanhedrin and the Jewish people did. Let us NOT reject the Savior, simply in order to hold to the status quo, leaving the religion of our fathers, and of our father's fathers (etc.) - UNQUESTIONED.
Jesus was crucified because he THREATENED the status quo ... but also because the Sanhedrin feared for its reputation and power. These bloodsucking leeches, corrupt as any modern politician, enjoyed `special privileges' in their relationship with the occupying Romans. They might have doubted that Jesus was the true Messiah, yet Christ gave them - THESE learned men (BAH!) - unequivocable, undeniable PROOF. And it was too much for them. Those that believed wanted him gone because they still had doubts, and knew their own days were numbered. Those who doubted still saw a threat, as did some of the Romans, and the latter leaned on the Sanhedrin to make the whole problem go away.
There is always more to the story, but if we cannot accept what is already standing plain before us ... then why should we expect our vision to be any less clouded on the rest of the matter?
Christ, like Saviors and Prophets both before and since, received the usual warm welcome that has always greeted such pure hearts and devoted minds. Countless disciples, of every world tradition, know in essence - if not in every particular - what Christ was forced to endure. I do not mean martyrdom, since many times the world server must endure a lifetime of apparently unappreciated, often challenged and misunderstood, Loving Service. Such Devoted Ones have gone to their graves unknown to the world at large, yet living to a ripe old age and serving Humanity even unto their last day on the planet.
Christ received the greatest repayment of all for what He brought to Humanity. He was rejected, slandered, doubted and 2100 years later, He remains one of the most enigmatic of historical figures ... even though the whole future course of Western religion in some ways still rests - in Jesus' hands.
As Chesterton points out, Christianity was found too difficult ... and thus left largely untried. Those precious few who have trodden the Higher Way and found their Soul's Salvation according to the Christian Path, KNOW that the Sacrifice and the Devotion, the questioning and at times, confused emotion ~ was well worth it. The rest of us may perhaps Aspire, and one day we shall come into our own.
Let us NOT do as the Sanhedrin and the Jewish people did. Let us NOT reject the Savior, simply in order to hold to the status quo, leaving the religion of our fathers, and of our father's fathers (etc.) - UNQUESTIONED.
Jesus was crucified because he THREATENED the status quo ... but also because the Sanhedrin feared for its reputation and power. These bloodsucking leeches, corrupt as any modern politician, enjoyed `special privileges' in their relationship with the occupying Romans. They might have doubted that Jesus was the true Messiah, yet Christ gave them - THESE learned men (BAH!) - unequivocable, undeniable PROOF. And it was too much for them. Those that believed wanted him gone because they still had doubts, and knew their own days were numbered. Those who doubted still saw a threat, as did some of the Romans, and the latter leaned on the Sanhedrin to make the whole problem go away.
There is always more to the story, but if we cannot accept what is already standing plain before us ... then why should we expect our vision to be any less clouded on the rest of the matter?
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Yes, you got that right. The Talmud was written by men (Jews) for men (Jews). But it does not constitute another religion. It is part of Judaism. Regarding being Israelites, we have about 15 million Jews on earth. Are they all Israelites? Yes, they are. The problem with you is that you are confusing Israelis with Israelites. Not all Israelis but all Jews are Israelites. And Moses was endoctrinated as a Jew whose Faith started with Abraham and not with Moses. If you have a chance to read the book "Joseph and his Brothers" by Thomas Mann, you will have all confusion on this matter erased.
Ben
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IMHO, neither Christianity nor Islam have anything at all to do with Judaism. They are religions started, Christianity by Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone, according to Acts 11:26, and Islam 650 years afterwards by Mohammad. And both to act as a scourge for the Jews.
Ben
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AndrewX, would you be so kind as to share with me what you mean by "unequivocable and undeniable proof that Jesus was the true Messiah?" IMHO, the Messiah could never be an individual, but the collective in the People of Israel. The logic of this assertion is that the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Tell me, are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. The Messiah, according to the Scriptures cannot die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37. Besides, the word Messiah in the Hebrew text means the Anointed One. And we have from Habakkuk 3:13 that he is the People of Israel. Anyways, if you prefer not to get down into the discussion about the real Messiah, at least, I expect you to answer my first question/request above.
Ben
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So, you're saying that Judaism began with Abraham? (who by the way was from Mesopotamia)
Abraham was a citizen of Ur in Chaldea (now Iraq). God told him to pack up his family and move to an undisclosed location. He packed up his family and traveled west, eventually crossing the Jordan river and ending in the land of Canaan; the region that is now near the disputed territories of modern day Israel.
So, he is NOT an Israelite and Moses was born an Egyptian. (Mesopotamian & Egyptian) These are the origins of Judaism.
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Just as the Jews had done to Egypt.
taijasi
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Nope. I can't do for you, Ben, what you won't do for yourself. And this is the same reason why God would never force the acceptance of a Savior upon anyone. It's your choice, if you prefer, to reject the possibility. I sure don't care to try and argue you out of it.
On the other hand, you seem open to the notion that Christ dwells beyond the flesh - and perhaps you care nothing for this business of the blood sacrifice of Jesus, which is not at all what Christianity is about anyway. The Christ that Christians will one day get to know (and some already do) can incarnate, or express Himself in the worlds of form ... when needed. And sure, that may occur every so often to demonstrate that God has not abandoned us, as can definitely seem the case, incarnate here in the world of deepest matter and materialism.
But God is also accessible in the here and now, within every human heart, and that is the Spark of Christ that slumbers, just waiting to burst forth as new Life and new Hope ... equally (or in parallel) as the flowers shoot forth from the snow or the ground when warmed by the sunshine of spring - DRAWN toward Him by that same Power.
Christ dwells within, and this is the Christ Immanent. Christ is also Transcendent, and this is why a SAVIOR is necessary, to manifest to Humanity what each of us is called to BECOME ... and to Represent, in the flesh, what EACH of us will one day BE, assuming we stick to the `straight and narrow,' as it is called. Nothing about narrow-mindedness is meant by that phrase, and the man who cannot accept that his GAY brothers and sisters are just as loved by Christ (a play on the word `straight') is NO Christian.
Anyway, I have fairly specific beliefs about the Personhood of Christ, so to speak, and Jesus (a different Soul) ... but those would best be aired on a different forum. You can find plenty of that, if you poke around.
What's important to me, and what I think you're saying, is that Christ was NOT limited to the body or person of Jesus of Nazareth. If that's the gist, then HEAR-HEAR!!!
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Hebrews, Israelites and Jews are the same. Moses was born in Egypt, yes, but he was an Israelite from the Tribe of Levi. He was not raised as a Jew, but he came to the realization that he had been one as an adult.
Ben
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Sorry, but you are absolutely ignorant of our history. I told you; if you find a way to read the book "Joseph and His Brothers" by Thomas Mann, you will have an idea of our role in this world. Were not for the Jews, Egypt would have bankrupted at the time of Joseph. Egypt had never become as rich as a country can be than at the time of Joseph as the main minister of internal affairs.
Ben
According to Maimonides, and again only as I no doubt imperfectly understand him, it was not least by means of both Christianity and Islam that the Torah, or at least some of the principles of the Torah, were being spread abroad, in however imperfect and diluted a form. Despite his stated antipathy to both religions, he was nevertheless able to see the hand of providence at work in their dissemination and attributed the best in both of them to that which they had purloined, rather as the Israelites had “borrowed” the silver of their Egyptian neighbors prior to the Exodus, from Judaism. (Well, ok, I did add the bit about the despoliation of the Egyptians, but I hope you get my drift.) Anyway, to me, with that and other observations on his part, Maimonides seems very far-sighted indeed -especially for a medievalist writing under conditions of duress- and that is one reason why I sometimes find him so endearing.
On the other hand, and by way of extreme contrast, General Ludendorff and a few other notable Germans of his era, who were probably students of the avowedly anti-Christian Nietzsche, considered Christianity unpalatable to the exact degree that it was permeated with “Asiatic,” that is to say, Jewish ideas. To them, if Jesus, instead of being the half-breed (as we were discussing in the “Alleged Sons of God” thread) and bastard son of the Roman Panther, as plenty of Talmudists held, had only been a full-blooded Roman –or, better yet, a German!- he and his his religion would more likely have been Aryan and thus heroic rather than the piece of slavish, pitiful and Oriental crap it to him was. For what it is worth, Ludendorff said the opposite of what you are saying. He held that St. Paul had distilled the worst of that which was Jewish and, in his tireless missionary zeal, had essentially infected the hapless, helpless, noble indigenous Europeans with a religion (i.e., Christianity) so manifestly absurd that even the Jews themselves had in the main rejected it.
I, personally, conclude that evidently, and depending upon the glass darkly or, rather, the dark glasses through which he is viewed, Saul otherwise known as Paul can the sphinx which daily troubled and troubles Thebes, to say nothing of Jerusalem.