God & god - "Know ye not that ye are gods?"

[taijasi]

For a number of reasons, which you've never been able to answer, I find your arguments unconvincing and founded on a confused cosmology.

Perhaps because I adhere to no one nice & neat, pre-packaged or -parcelled CANNED version of how it all came to be.

The Greeks gave us a little bit of the answer, the Judeo-Christian has done the same, the Vedas and Buddhist Sutras speak the question of world/cosmic origins, etc. No one system of thought has ever yet presented the complete story, including The Secret Doctrine or even all of Theosophy. Blavatsky herself made clear that she was only given and allowed to share a small portion of the Stanzas of Dzyan.

I can't pretend that - having studied a number of these - I have suddenly reached the apotheosis of understanding when it comes to things that occurred trillions upon trillions of years before Thomas or Andrew were a sparkle in anyone's eye. I can't spout off about things so far beyond our ken that not even the most evolved sages in THIS System have any direct insight. I have, at best, a realization of WHY Socrates is called the WISE Fool. And that will probably remain one of my favorite cards in the Tarot deck till my dying day.

When a man steps forward and pretends to have some grasp on these things, it's sometimes amusing, sometimes frustrating, but neither a Thomas Aquinas or a Thomas Didymus, nor anyone I have ever met, truly knows the answers or understands things when we begin speaking of these cosmological issues. How did we GET to that, anyway? I thought we were dealing with metaphysics here? I will be the first to point out that such matters are related, not narrowly segmented, specialized FIELDS of study that never involve each other, or deal with the same subjects. That's absurd.

But if I'm going to be slammed for a cosmology that you don't agree with, understand or find clarity or use in ... at least could you find another thread to do it? Here I thought we were going to look at something as down to Earth (!) as the notion of `the Christ within,' or God within ... as per the OP and thread topic. I may have meandered, but now I'm taking the opportunity to point out that cosmological discussions belong elsewhere. If that's a context that must be evoked, a framework into which our metaphysics naturally finds that it must fit .... so be it. Until then, let's get back to what it is that makes us human, makes us - with time - MORE than human, and just how it is that we come from being a relatively crude sort of person to a more spiritually refined and psychologically healthy person ... on the way to developing, then embodying and PERFECTING those VIRTUES as will lead us all to the outcome described in Ephesians 4:13.

Jiva is from the verb 'to breathe' and thus there's a correspondence between jiva and the soul in Christian metaphysics (ruarch, nepesh, neshamah, and so on... )

Then it should make perfect sense that the Breath is what is doing the descending ... into the forms mentioned in Scriptural references. As long as we don't up-end our understanding and get things entirely BACKWARD, we're off to a good start. The Jiva goes through the entire cycle of peregrinations, and we're dealing with 7 Kingdoms of Life. Humanity is the 4th, or middle Kingdom, the Kingdom of God, Heaven or Souls is the 5th.

How can this confuse us, or allow us to misconstrue the notion of WHAT is making the peregrinations? If it is the JIVA, then of COURSE you and I should not false identify ourselves with, or pretend to BE the Soul. There is a difference between Affirmation [as similar to Prayer, or the utterance of an Apostles' CREED] and getting mixed up about who & what WE [or I] actually are/am. The West, and enough of the East, labors under the delusion of Sakkyaditti. My eyes, and senses, and especially my mind, DO fool me - even moment by moment. Does this mean I HAVE TO believe what I am being told, what data comes to my brain, and mind? Hmmmm.

NO personal ego survives the after-death Purgatory and subsequent stages between incarnations. When have I ever said or implied otherwise? I can only apologize if that's what it looks like I've been saying. Of course, if you've read half a page of Theosophical teaching on this matter you'd know that no seasoned student of the Ageless Wisdom believes in any such nonsense. If I say that "I remember" things from before my physical birth, perhaps the question should be, HOW is that possible, given what else I make PLAIN that I believe and adhere to! Again, hmmmm.

The point is, the breath bit is divine, not human, it is the animating principle, the principle of life as such.

The jiva is not the same as PRANA, however ... so we do NOT mean the thing which animates the etheric or model body, the subtle portion of the physical. The latter is essentially animated by Prana, then itself galvanizes the dense body. Here already there are two Principles, yet no intellect and as yet no emotions or passion. The kama-rupa is understood by many students to be the combined mental-astral self, or false ego ... the personality.

One further principle is usually considered as being part of the HUMAN being, and that is lower manas, or personal, concrete & limited MIND. If the latter is overshadowed or becoming increasingly illumined by Higher Manas or Divine Mind, we have the case of the person aspiring toward discipleship and world service. Technically the person remains Human for awhile longer, but the JIVA - remember that part that we said is doing the actual reincarnating? - the JIVA begins to exert DIVINE influence to such a degree that eventually a lifetime or series of lifetimes occurs in which the Long Dark Night becomes the personality's experience. The person definitely struggles both against AND WITH the Spiritual Soul. The emerging and triumphant victor from this struggle IS the Soul, yet via the path of Sacrifice and the submergence of self-interest in the Good of the Whole [the ONE] ... it is the PERSON, you or I, who *comes to* this point of attainment and Realization.

At the Transfiguration Initiation, when Peter, James and John are CAST DOWN ... and CHRIST is lifted UP ... we see the physical, astral and mental bodies (symbolized here, duh!) completely transformed and transcended. The entire personality nature has been transmuted, transformed and finally TRANSFIGURED. There stands before us a NEW PERSON ... and for simplicity's sake, this IS the Jiva; it IS the Father Who Art in Heaven. Now the MONAD itself incarnates directly ... and at the next Initiation we have a Jivanmukta. The Soul itself is able to move on to higher spheres.

Why should this confuse, unless we have completely misunderstood ... oooohhh, NOW I get it ... Iiiiiii see you point, Thomas. Quite. IF we have been confused, IF we have come (as do all human beings) to IDENTIFY our consciousness, our Spiritual nature, with the physical body, and our feelings, and the lower mental nature .... ohhh, I see. YES, THEN there is a problem. After all, we shall enter the Purgatory and we will find that long before we are ready to stand before the Lord, as it is put, we must cast off and be purged of those coarsest aspects of our nature which we have allowed to develop. Over the many thousands of lifetimes, these do tend to be quite a crusty shell. Yet upon each physical death, we purge a little bit more these most undesirable traits & habits from our personality nature.

The reason for this is not that we are completing the work of all of these many lifetimes suddenly and at long last. Progress on the Path does not occur in this fashion. As we move through the Bardo (the Fields of Aanroo, the lower astral, the after-life) ... we are simply making it possible for our true self, our Consciousness within - however primitive or however developed - to move onto the mental plane and more truly know our fellow, Brother Souls. Even within that world there is not perfect understanding, yet most folks spend several hundred years there between incarnations, sometimes moving toward the Higher Mental plane ... and a more complete, perfect Union with the Agnishvatta, the Jiva upon the plane of Higher Manas which esotericists call `the SOUL.'

This will result, this direct contact with the Soul, in an immediate rebirth in the case of advanced disciples and Initiates who are devoted to World Service and who know that the Devachan experience is in many ways a type of reward. This is a definite form of spiritual Sacrifice, and countless people alive today have made this choice ... descending from the Heaven-world to once again serve their fellow man in this time of world need. The births we take, however, are just the same as any other ... and except in the cases of Tulku, or where a High Initiate is involved, we are quite unlikely to remember specifics as to either the Heaven-life (let alone Purgatory last time 'round, which can be a bit unpleasant, at least at first) or our immediate prior incarnation(s). Exceptions, as I say, do exist ... and for GOOD REASON, i.e., to serve a definite Spiritual PURPOSE.

Why is it that some cannot, or do not, recognize God's PURPOSE for emanating Cosmos, for bringing into being numberless Stars and Planets and for peopling these systems with as many Jivas as there are grains of sand on all the beaches of all the planets in the Milky Way? *Speaking* of Love is one thing; here is God's Love, and here is its evidence throughout all of Cosmos ... save where human ignorance, hatred, greed, selfishness and fear intervene.

So I argue, even from 'jiva', that life as such goes on, at the universal, principial and non-individuated level ... not that any particular individuality is transferred from one body to the next, so for that reason I refute the exoteric notion of reincarnation that you believe in.

Ahhh, but philospher say, If UNIVERSAL Principle exist, same Principle must somehow become realized in specific!

Lovely to see you again, my Friend/Let's walk along a little ways now, shall we? Ohh, just to the next bend ... no need to overdo it.

Skandhas ... what are they? Kleshas, what are THESE? Hmmmm.

How about Virtue, and Virtues? What was that again, about not storing up our treasure on Earth? Something about a rich man not exactly finding it easy to make it into the Kingdom, where - as PILLARS in God's Temple - we shall go out no more? [vide The Book of Revelation]

The STOREHOUSE, the Alaya ... this is what we're [or at least I'm] trying to get at ... conceptually. There are definitely mechanisms, Thomas, by which God has made it possible that Cosmos behaves precisely as we have been able to observe, all around, in every Kingdom (including man): There are methods by which all that a Thomas is, or an Andrew becomes, in any ONE given incarnation, gets STORED [a bit like a word processing file] ... then the story continued, next time around. Gee, it's only on the tombstones of folks like Benjamin Franklin. Let me dig this [epithet & epitaph] up ...

"The body of Benjamin Franklin, printer (like the cover of an old book, its contents worn out, and stript of its lettering and gilding) lies here, food for worms. Yet the work itself shall not lost, for it will, as he believed, appear once more In a new and more beautiful edition, corrected and amended by its Author"
​

Nasti Paro Dharma!
Namaskar

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew,

I'm glad you brought up the subject of skandhas. Skandhas are an important concept for people who believe in reincarnation. Skandhas are tendencies that are built up over repeated reincarnations. For example, I recently watch an eight-year-old girl give a beautiful piano concert to over a thousand people in a music hall in my hometown. She was only eight years old! How is this possible? It is possible because I am sure she has been a pianist in many previous lives, and so was able to give a beautiful concert at such a young age. Being a musical 'genius' at such a young age is a wonderful example of a skandha.

I have told elsewhere of my Japanese language ability. (Japanese people are always amazed at how well I speak Japanese.) There is no way to explain it, except that it is a skandha I brought with me from several previous reincarnations in Japan.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

2500? You are missing a zero. I also don't post about 85% of the responses that I begin, sometimes after having composed them for hours. Why should I post at all?

It will occur (to some) that often times, a post has already had its intended effect (preferably a positive one, overall) even before we post it. In such cases, where doubt remains - or where it doesn't quite fit the True-Helpful-Inspiring-Necessary-Kind litmus test - I often make that observation silently ... then hit delete. I usually have a few posts nearly complete these days in various browser windows, so when the browser crashes, they disappear.

When did I ever say I wasn't a madman???

Just because I recall my past lives, and possibly yours, doesn't make me a lunatic ... nor does the fact that I understand why I do, as well as something about how Rebirth works (on the level of the personality vehicles & personality, as applies to the reincarnating Jiva or even as this affects the planet as a whole, other kingdoms of life and so on).

I challenge anyone on the planet to have my experiences, then believe and regard things any differently than I do. Likewise, seeing what it's been like being YOU ... would probably lead me to understand you better, and see why you make the choices that you do. From this perspective, I not only understand Thomas, or Lunitik, or A Nice Cup of Tea perfectly well (sometimes we begin in theory, coming to specifics only later, if at all) ... I would be amazed if you did see things differently. I might be inclined to ask WHY?

To thine OWN self be True!

[Mileage may vary; iow, misunderstanding self, truth, etc. - DO THE BEST YOU CAN!]
And btw, let me take you down, 'cause I'm going to ...

I didn't mean to call your beliefs mad, only your emotions in your response to Thomas. To tell the truth, Thomas and bananabrains ways speak to me, for whatever reason. But I think the dialogue is important, and I think having a the opposite perspective is important for us humans as a group and individuals. What I have trouble accepting is, and this is how I preceptive you, they way you take what Thomas says personally, the personal attacks. I'm aware that I can be accused of the very same thing in my interaction with donnann. But I think it would be so much nicer to read your discussion if you kept to the subject.

My two cents.

 

[taijasi]

I'm done arguing with members of the flat-earth society.

Have a nice life with your cup of tea, both of you.

But you're right, btw. There isn't a speck of Divinity, God or god, ANYWHERE in your makeup.

Satisfied? For a change I'll agree with you on this one WHOLE HOG. You've both convinced me.

 

[ResistETIntervention]

All religions are initiated by God, and all religions have been changed and corrupted by human beings. The reason that the religions have been causing problems in human society is that the human beings have failed to recognize that God is the author of all religions and that the true essence of all religions became obscured or even lost in some cases, in their incessant fights and arguments among them in claiming their religions as the most “correct” one or the most pleasing one to God.

 

[donnann]

All religions are initiated by God, and all religions have been changed and corrupted by human beings. The reason that the religions have been causing problems in human society is that the human beings have failed to recognize that God is the author of all religions and that the true essence of all religions became obscured or even lost in some cases, in their incessant fights and arguments among them in claiming their religions as the most “correct” one or the most pleasing one to God.

I agree. The interpertations are the problem. When reasoning scriipture unles you use a divine mind you come out with an opposing interpretation to gods word. Thats why they say the bible can be the devils best weapon but with true interpretation it belongs to christ. personally I believe the only purpose the devil serves is to separate those things not of god for god to bring the correct things into union and that is true interpretation. people even have a wrong concept of what the devil is and does as well. The bible as all scriptures are HOLY and nothing in there is meant to serve any other purpose which is why misinterpretation is such a problem.

 

[donnann]

I agree. The interpertations are the problem. When reasoning scriipture unles you use a divine mind you come out with an opposing interpretation to gods word. Thats why they say the bible can be the devils best weapon but with true interpretation it belongs to christ. personally I believe the only purpose the devil serves is to separate those things not of god for god to bring the correct things into union and that is true interpretation. people even have a wrong concept of what the devil is and does as well. The bible as all scriptures are HOLY and nothing in there is meant to serve any other purpose which is why misinterpretation is such a problem.

This is such a difficult concept for those to understand but recently they discovered a figure of a devil in a picture of a saint who was resurrected under it. It wasnt a joke. It represented the separation of things not of god to bring into union the things that are......to cause resurrection.. This is why it says as above so below. GOD isnt the devil and christ sits below but the only purpose the devil serves and satan is to separate the things not of god to unite the correct things....understand. This is why Judaism says there is no devil as in the christian concept of it as some evil entity that is out to destroy life its really something that functions to identify those unions that are not life unions to separate them for life union. The jews have it corrrect.

 

[Thomas]

Perhaps because I adhere to no one nice & neat, pre-packaged or -parcelled CANNED version of how it all came to be.

Of course you do, you call it Theosophy.

The Greeks gave us a little bit of the answer, the Judeo-Christian has done the same, the Vedas and Buddhist Sutras speak the question of world/cosmic origins, etc. No one system of thought has ever yet presented the complete story, including The Secret Doctrine or even all of Theosophy.

Andrew, you cannot possibly know or say that, on the basis that your knowledge does not exhaust nor supersede what it is possible to know of the traditions you speak of. That you choose to assume a limitation suggests more about your insight than the deficiencies of the systems involved.

Man is made to know God. That knowledge is of quite a different order of that derived from deductive reasoning.

I can't spout off about things so far beyond our ken

That's just what you seem to be doing.

When a man steps forward and pretends to have some grasp on these things, it's sometimes amusing, sometimes frustrating, but neither a Thomas Aquinas or a Thomas Didymus, nor anyone I have ever met, truly knows the answers or understands things when we begin speaking of these cosmological issues.

Really? Again I think you'll find that's your ignorance talking, not theirs. St Thomas Aquinas has a metaphysic that underpins cosmology quite adequately, nor is he alone in that. I think all the authentic Traditions go beyond cosmology, a point I continually make, and a popint you continually fail to comprehend.

How did we GET to that, anyway? I thought we were dealing with metaphysics here?

No, you're talking about cosmology.

But if I'm going to be slammed for a cosmology that you don't agree with, understand or find clarity or use in ...

I don't slam you for it, all I ask is that you don't insist that I must accept it.

at least could you find another thread to do it? Here I thought we were going to look at something as down to Earth (!) as the notion of `the Christ within,' or God within ... as per the OP and thread topic.

So did I. The thread topic is a text from Scripture, and I have presented the 'down to earth' context above ... rather than the somewhat fanciful inversion of its meaning.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[donnann]

The use of the Capital G in 'God' defines it as "The One, The Creator, the Supreme Being, Yehowah (YHWH), Allah, etc." The use of the small case g in 'god' defines it as "one deity in a pantheon of deities", plural: 'gods'.


Jesus son of Joseph stated, "Know ye not that ye are gods?" This famous quote is seemingly never addressed in sermons or in print. Let's address it now! Comments?

Do you think GOD gets mad when just because angelic beings are more complex than human beings that they try to label its daughter as some kinda of multisexual thing?
Angelic beings are either male or female no matter how complex the being is and daughters are female and just becuase its more complex doesnt mean its bisexual or asexual its actually heterosexual. The pushing of other ideas is wrong because it effects an individual until it comes into full realization. What do you think on this subject as far as the great I AM goes?

 

[donnann]

Do you think GOD gets mad when just because angelic beings are more complex than human beings that they try to label its daughter as some kinda of multisexual thing?
Angelic beings are either male or female no matter how complex the being is and daughters are female and just becuase its more complex doesnt mean its bisexual or asexual its actually heterosexual. The pushing of other ideas is wrong because it effects an individual until it comes into full realization. What do you think on this subject as far as the great I AM goes?

Oh and believe it or not but the more complex it is the more female it actually is as in the feminine...hard concept to grasp but true.

 

[taijasi]

Another saga; but what I ask is not a tedious response ... simply - the nod of your head, Thomas (perhaps a bit of patience, too, and from all). As I have said before, since my gift (these days) is not brevity, perhaps take ONE idea, thought or sentence ... if this is worth seizing upon, or debating, or exploring, or disproving. Anything, I ask, so that it gets us back to *what it means* to be gods, in ANY capacity other than ~ title alone.

Of course you do, you call it Theosophy.

I prefer to identify myself as an aspirant to the Wisdom, or a student of the Wisdom Tradition. If you *must* use the word Theosophy here, that's fine, but let's be clear that *I* believe the first Theosophists came from Sirius - or perhaps from Venus [~18 million years ago].

Please do not confuse me with any kind of official representative for the Theosophical Society (in America or International) ... or latter-day Theosophist, if I may use such a term.

Andrew, you cannot possibly know or say that, on the basis that your knowledge does not exhaust nor supersede what it is possible to know of the traditions you speak of. That you choose to assume a limitation suggests more about your insight than the deficiencies of the systems involved.

Not quite, Thomas. I do at least aspire to be *Socratic* in my profession of limitations. In other words, I KNOW I am severely handicapped and limited in my knowledge, yet the knowledge that I do have is sufficient to allow me to make the above statements (see previous post).

The fact that *you* cannot or will not grasp what I point out ... is what indicates a lack. The fact that you would try and uphold a tradition, ANY tradition, as somehow providing a complete *and FINAL* Revelation - is what proves *your* current position, heels firmly dug in at the old impasse. For if you knew better you would never say that Christianity, Theosophy, Islam or even the Divine Revelation for the whole Age of Aquarius is FINAL.

Either we can speak of dispensations of Wisdom (in which case, acknowledging this to be "sent" from God, we must call it THE Wisdom, even if but *an* instance of such) ... or we are not on the same page at all. The Angelic Doctor will naturally have his preferences when it comes to how he chooses to present his experiences and beliefs. I claim likewise, yet I hold that TRUTH is the highest standard, not something erected BY MANKIND HIMSELF and then carefully disseminated, craftily supplanting the simple yet Sublime Teachings of the Lord of Love.

Man is made to know God. That knowledge is of quite a different order of that derived from deductive reasoning.

I do not arrive at my knowledge through the latter process ... certainly not entirely, nor for the most part when it comes to my spiritual Faith and interior practice. Often I have tried to speak of the kind of knowledge with which you *seem* to be familiar ... and we can approach it from many (if not quite any) of the spokes of the Wheel of Dharma. Will you see, finally or at long last, that there is but one Hub and many ways of approach? Or will you gaze out upon the beautiful scene from high atop your alabaster tower, never heeding the waves that crash again & again upon the shore AND ITS BASE? For I tell you, old Friend, Christ [TRUTH! + Love + Beauty] stands at that Hub and calls, with arms outstretched ...

Thomas, the Buddhi, the Love-Wisdom Aspect of the Soul, does not allow for one man to stand from within an *imagined* and purely intellectual construct of Cosmos and tell others that they do not know God. Perhaps you will say that I "do not know God as THOMAS has come to know God." You would be quite right. I can say the same, but if my consciousness - my EGO and little self (the persona, the *false self*] - manages to rise and reach into the Buddhic awareness (let alone Nirvanic samadhi) even for an INSTANT ... all separation, all enmity and bitterness, even centuries or long ages of conflict and outer strife will FALL AWAY.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to contact his Soul, to experience the Light and Love of Soul Consciousness ... which unites him with God and with ALL of his fellow Men ... and still cling to all of the same personality limitations which prevent us from further advance along the spiritual path. If a man does not immediately manage to anchor the fact and *results* of Soul contact within the lower mind and brain (outer awareness), he will of necessity be required to travel the spiritual Path more slowly ... until the inner Awakening(s) begin to show forth as the proverbial FRUIT.

You and I both (or rather, each, considering the perspective of the personality) continue to struggle with this externalization process, if in different ways, along different lines, perhaps for different reasons and even with varying desired results, as we gradually recapitulate the growth and progress of past lives ... and forge ahead within the current one. I do not pretend that we haven't been about this since we were young children, NOR am I confused about what will occur in the Purgatory, the Devachan and upon our RETURN.

Details are beyond me, and I do not pretend to know specifics for you, for me or for anyone. Rather, I study the rules, I study the evidence at hand, and I see what my own experience (and various or varied experiences) CONFIRM. Long ago did I leave behind the illusions of vicarious atonement, and while I may indulge on my own watch (or choose my vices as I like), I do not make PRETENSE to having found an easy way out ... when it comes to Spiritual Responsibility, as well as PERSONAL Responsibility.

You shall not SELL *me* on any of the ideas which have been carefully tailored, down through the ages, to keep man's thinking faculties and inquisitive nature in check. My own measuring stick long ago registered what it needed in order for me to be able to take the next steps on the Path that *I tread*. Neither you, nor any other, walks that path.

Here is where we must disagree, if you would sit and preach to me, as the TRADITION of the Good Doctor seems to dictate, about my great ignorance ... then in the same breath presume to speak with greater knowledge, authority or experience. Thomas, I am quite accustomed to interacting with those before Whom I know my own thoughts, my own aspirations and also my greatest external efforts PALE, yet I have long known Their LIGHT, Their LOVE, Their Strength and Guiding Hand.

I also know that were *you* to experience this, even for a MOMENT - in some context, scenario or venue with which you are not accustomed - you would [and I trust will] find yourself ... perhaps speechless, certainly humbled, awed and bewildered by the Beauty and the Majesty that for the most part you obviously have not even suspected, in this your current life (at least as far as the brain consciousness goes).

I will go further, and make the affirmation that - once free of the limitations of the flesh - your nightly sojourns bring you quite close to (if not directly in the midst) of the very Ones to Whom I refer ... and whatever your thoughts or reply, be CLEAR that I did not suggest you find *no inspiration or empowerment* from within your own tradition, and from your own accustomed or preferred contacts (if via means of supplication, or appeal).

Remember, I believe in MAHATMAS, yet I assert that every Human being - REGARDLESS of outer professions of faith, or even complete lack thereof - is destined eventually to tread the path that leads to the Higher Way. In my finding there is no eternal damnation, no PUNISHMENT on the part of a God of whim and caprice for transgressions which we clearly cannot avoid anyway, given the nature of our incarnation into Samsara.

WE shall attain, because Christ attained; yet NOT through some blind credulity, or uttered creeds which then fall by the wayside, never another thought ventured. I do not say you are this type of "Christian," yet the Christ I believe in - the GOD WITHIN - does not reward out of favoritism, or fail to deal with the *injustices* which clearly still hold sway within the unenlightened worlds of humanity's personality consciousness.

My belief, at least in MY life, restores dignity to Humanity - because it points directly to the Inner Potential of the Individual, the STRENGTH of the God within, along with Perfect Love and the Light of Illumination which shall come to ALL MEN in course of time, AS PER THE TRUTH AND REVELATION OF THE GOSPELS (and other, similar Scriptures). I also can see, I KNOW and can *ATTEST TO* the Power and the Love, the Life and the Light, of the collective, the WHOLE ... the ONE Humanity, realized not simply by the process of addition, or holistic contemplation, but by direct Identification, practiced on the Spiritual Path until we have PERFECTED this method of Realization at the Adept Initiation.

It also follows, or I should say, I also happen to know, through a FAITH BASED ON DIRECT SPIRITUAL ENCOUNTER, that whether it is the Nazarene Initiate in His current role, or any other of the 63 members of the Spiritual Government [`Christ and His Church'] ... EVERY human being "has" a Master. A better term to use here would be TEACHER, because the idea is somewhat misleading as it has often been presented, and also because the percentage of humans who have directly contacted or interacted with the Masters is still very small.

That's just what you seem to be doing.

I definitely wander into areas that are over my head. If I didn't, I would never learn anything! Nor can I simply crack a book, even while I know its Inspiration, accuracy and some of the obvious implications ... if I also already know from the outset that all I'm seeking is further knowledge. This is where we will EVER be in agreement, regardless as to which lifetime we find ourselves comparing notes, or striving to recognize and Remember the Inner Man.

Really? Again I think you'll find that's your ignorance talking, not theirs. St Thomas Aquinas has a metaphysic that underpins cosmology quite adequately, nor is he alone in that. I think all the authentic Traditions go beyond cosmology, a point I continually make, and a popint you continually fail to comprehend.

You will need to say more here; else, you've lost me.

PHYSICS, from physis or `nature,' presumes to study the physical world (!) ... telling us things that we can either confirm or disprove with our senses, yet confining its scope to what ALL MEN can currently observe. This may or may not be how the ancient Greeks understood the world, yet we all owe a debt of gratitude to Aristotle - later the alchemists and medieval astrologers - for helping to lay the foundation that we all (or nearly all) stand upon today.

META-physics presumes to scan beyond the stars even if all i need do is stare at the back of my hand in order to accomplish it. What lies BEYOND the physical world? And for the stubborn, headstrong, persistent yet *unenlightened* student [in which category I place you, me, and 99.9% of Humanity] ... the answer is EVER changing. When progress is slow (yet steady, as often should be the case), we find ourselves developing new notions of what the FIRMAMENT might actually refer to. Care to speak for a moment (oh, about FIVE WORDS will do) about your own experiences of the Firmament?

Yeah, I didn't think so ... and while you and I might REFER to it, I will venture again that neither you nor I, nor most folks that we've met, have any DIRECT experience of the worlds of Illumined Mind, Intuitive Love-Wisdom, let alone the Atmic [DIVINE] WILL. I do not say that these are unattainable, or that we have never approached them or encountered, been Inspired or moved by them. I just point out that your own Siddhis and higher abilities are not yet unfolded to such a degree as to speak with any real authority about metaphysical matters ... save to the extent that your own intellectual principle has been irradiated by Light from `above' - or your Heart similarly filled with an outpouring from the level of the Spiritual Soul.

Are such experiences uncommon, or unlikely? Not at all. They occur around the globe, to countless members of the Human Family, every day ... and a much more organized overshadowing of our little, personal consciousness is already going on than most people will live to realize or understand. That doesn't mean we should be afraid to explore new ideas and break free of boundaries that have long sought to bar our progress (even from within the darkness and depths of our own mind, our own ignorance, doubt, superstitions, fears or uncertainty).

As one student of the Wisdom was fond of saying, we must Keep on Keeping on! Sound familiar?

 

[taijasi]

Further thoughts:

If I presume to speak to you in the role of the Soul, or in the role of Teacher, senior student or MORE EXPERIENCED STUDENT [which I have done on more than one occasion] ... then I do so wrongly. {Ahhh, and where was an Illarion as this clarity came to me? }

You are correct to `call me' on this error, and as A Nice Cup of Tea pointed out, talking to each other in such fashion is neither necessary nor appropriate. It is certainly not conduct and interchange that one would expect to see from disciples or a spiritual aspirants.

I think you know that this goes both ways. If one seeks Respect, one can best evoke it by *demonstrating it*. If one SEEKS to share one's ideas with others, or to call attention to what one knows, thinks or believes are important Ideas and Ideals, then surely - as you have mentioned - it is better to use honey rather than vinegar for one's flypaper. You are correct here, on all counts, and Thomas, it will slowly occur to you that I, just as the Great Ones (save on a lesser scale, and in my own, limited ways) would just as soon see you ATTAIN, and move forward as argue, quarrel, or concern yourself with straightening out my missing metaphysics.

As it turns out, I say I've got you beat ... *not* because I currently approach our discussions with clarity, organization, or discipline, much less the unfailing Spirit of Goodwill and commitment to a Greater Good that should be hallmark characteristics of anyone whose feet have trodden where I sometimes think BOTH of ours [sets of feet, that is] have done. These all, IF I would demonstrate them (or if you would, or any), might reveal tout de suite that 95% of what you and I are doing is spinning our wheels. Yet the remaining 5%, even though practiced imperfectly, is still enough to make the effort worthwhile.

I cannot yield while yet a Thomas or ANY person stands and rails on in such a way that I see the Truth (in men's minds, let alone their hearts) crumble, Hope become abandoned, confusion begin to set in or pessimism & negativity of outlook start to win the day. I dare say you are committed to the SAME ideals, and I think you will find, upon some reflection, that we are dedicated to most of the same Great GOALS, after all.

Once you realize that this is a ROUND Table, I think you'll see things much more clearly, however tiny a portion of the Table our little *SIDE* may happen to be [thus providing the ILLUSION of angles - God knows they're all obtuse, it's the acute ones *I'd* be watching out for]. True, we are learning to move from the SQUARE to the Five-Pointed Star, and this is amidst a Humanity that still largely struggles with its THREEfold `lower' nature!

Don't let this discourage you, as there are yet the Sixth and Seventh Kingdoms to be reckoned with ... and a Symbolism that neither of us has even vaguely penetrated (in its Higher reaches, or should I say - FOUNDATIONS). Understanding Universals (at least in Theory), we make observations in the PARTICULAR. When the particulars can confirm our Theory of Universals, we make some degree of advance (along one line of understanding). And how many ways to KNOW GOD do *you* say there are?

Thomas, I will suggest there are SEVEN Billion and more, but that is only because this many Jivas are currently incarnate. 200 Billion of such ways might be contemplated ... yet if there is still ONE God, ONE Truth and most definitely ONE Divine Love-Wisdom, then don't you think it's rather a shame (no, a *crime*) that you and I do carry on like so?

I will own my share, as best I can, yet I maintain my commitment, and you should well know to Whom my Pledge has been given, as also WHY ... and even WHEN, if you search in earnest. I make mistakes, all the time, every day; and I will not pretend that I see things I do not, if I have no grounds for it. Even when I have a hunch, or some degree of Intuition, I try to reserve judgment (sometimes for many years ... longer?) ... until I have additional evidence to back up my suppositions or intuited ideas. I would imagine you understand this, and do the same.

A careful study of the first SEVEN verses of the Gospel of John, ch. 1, provide me with everything I need as far as a Cosmology. Since this does not appeal to you, what is it again that we are supposed to be discussing here? WHERE are our points of intersection, and the relevance of ANYTHING that you and I have said here in the past week or so, to the OP and current thread topic?

???

I don't slam you for it, all I ask is that you don't insist that I must accept it.

Hell no. You're a Catholic, and I study the Ageless Wisdom. I figure that you accepting Reincarnation, or the God within as I believe and know it ... is about as likely, in this lifetime, as me becoming a born-again Christian, Bible clutched tightly in hand, my every last possession sold in order to follow Jesus when he descends out of the sky in a ball of fire & light. Yes, I need to lighten my proverbial load, but - not quite like this.

You plannin' to join up with the Liberal Catholic Church any time soon, or perhaps ask your wife if the two of you might pledge to become Co-Masons (sic)?

There you have it, then!

So did I. The thread topic is a text from Scripture, and I have presented the 'down to earth' context above ... rather than the somewhat fanciful inversion of its meaning.

The idea when panning for gold, Thomas, is that when you shake the last little bit of dust and dirt, sand and silt away, what you're looking for is - well, GOLD. It isn't a lump of dead black coal, or the LACK of gold, which you're hoping to find.

My problem with modern theology, but more so with the errant tradition(s) which have brought about or degraded into the present condition ... is the DEARTH of Gold that seems to be being found when we *investigate* the Nature of man - according to the resultant, flawed outlook.

I, while cynical, often negative and *clearly* wandering a bit aside from the beaten path, have never and will never yield my Vision, including the Inner ASSURANCE, that all for which I have worked and dedicated my life will come to pass. In other words, I am MORE than the Hopeful Optimist, at heart; or I should say, *at heart* I am more than a cynic, or a naysayer ... I am AN OPTIMIST!

Why do I believe as I do? Because this is what Christ taught me.

And my Old Friend, you can take THAT one ~ to the ££BANK$$!

 

[Lunitik]

AndrewX: You will attain nothing if you see it as your vision, as something you desire. Buddha has said the nature of suffering is desire, you have said you are in the Dark Night of the Soul, this is not coincidence. You have to find that you are not the doer, you have to let go to this desire because it is already the case! Your very desire to do it is the veil, YOU are the only thing stopping the culmination of your work! Offer yourself and you will have the ocean, insist that you attain the ocean and you will lose even your drop.

God is not rude, while you continue working he will not interrupt. How much longer do you want to seek what you've never lost though? He is here, why are you going there? Let go and see, but you have to be really willing to give up yourself for it... are you prepared? I did not even question, it was just part of the inquiry, it is as difficult as your hold on what you think you are though. Do you really want to know what you actually are? Then drop everything you think, all you have concluded during this life, see it is all a false concept. Only when your mind is emptied will you see the truth, only then is the dust cleared that you can look in the mirror and see your true face. I cannot prove it to you though, you have to have that conviction yourself, or is what you say just words? If they are just words, just the result of much research, you are wasting your time. If you allow it, it is the case this moment, if you keep looking for it you will keep on missing. Let go, stop the nonsense, purify your being and allow what will happen.

Trust, there is another side. You were that when you entered this world, you were that before you entered, you have only permitted wrong ideas to come in, that is the only nature of the separation between soul and spirit - between man and god. Drop the wrong ideas and the pieces go back together by themselves, retain any and it is not possible.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew,

I'd like to clarify that a Theosophist is a person who studies the teachings of Madame Blavatsky, while a theosophist is someone who studies all forms of the Ancient Wisdom (teachings by Plato, Socrates, etc.) as it has come down through the centuries. I think this is the distinction you are trying to make, and it sounds like you are calling yourself a theosophist, not a Theosophist.

 

[Thomas]

Hell no. You're a Catholic, and I study the Ageless Wisdom.

I too study the Ageless Wisdom, but I know that the Perennial Tradition does not surpass Revelation.

Why, even you have declared your 'Ageless Wisdom' to be deficient, and I agree with that.

The spokespersons of the Perennial Tradition, the metaphysician René Guénon, the esoterist Frithjof Schuon, the Alchemist Titus Burckhart, the Tibetan Buddhist Marco Pallis, to name but a few, all insist that realisation can only be achieved within a Tradition, and outside of it, man can do nothing.

"We announce to you the eternal life which dwelt with the Father and was made visible to us. What we have seen and heard we announce to you, so that you may have fellowship with us and our common fellowship be with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ" (1 John 1:2-3)
Knowledge is not my aim. The vocation of the Christian is a higher calling than that.

When it comes to 'God within', you're really not on the same page as us. God to you, it seems to me, is like 'knowledge', something to be possessed as 'mine'.

In the Catholic Tradition, as God is incomparably greater than any created thing, indeed greater than the sum of all created things, indeed greater than all that was, is, will be, never was, is not, and never will be, created ... such a God cannot be possessed or contained ... God is not an object of knowledge, such as modernism would like it to be, rather God is a union and a communion.

God is immanently present to man, in the very foundation of his being — the source of the twofold mystery which the Ancient Wisdom has always sought to fathom — the mystery of the existence of God, and the mystery of the existence of man.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[donnann]

I too study the Ageless Wisdom, but I know that the Perennial Tradition does not surpass Revelation.

Why, even you have declared your 'Ageless Wisdom' to be deficient, and I agree with that.

The spokespersons of the Perennial Tradition, the metaphysician René Guénon, the esoterist Frithjof Schuon, the Alchemist Titus Burckhart, the Tibetan Buddhist Marco Pallis, to name but a few, all insist that realisation can only be achieved within a Tradition, and outside of it, man can do nothing.

"We announce to you the eternal life which dwelt with the Father and was made visible to us. What we have seen and heard we announce to you, so that you may have fellowship with us and our common fellowship be with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ" (1 John 1:2-3)
Knowledge is not my aim. The vocation of the Christian is a higher calling than that.

When it comes to 'God within', you're really not on the same page as us. God to you, it seems to me, is like 'knowledge', something to be possessed as 'mine'.

In the Catholic Tradition, as God is incomparably greater than any created thing, indeed greater than the sum of all created things, indeed greater than all that was, is, will be, never was, is not, and never will be, created ... such a God cannot be possessed or contained ... God is not an object of knowledge, such as modernism would like it to be, rather God is a union and a communion.

God is immanently present to man, in the very foundation of his being — the source of the twofold mystery which the Ancient Wisdom has always sought to fathom — the mystery of the existence of God, and the mystery of the existence of man.

God bless,

Thomas

Catholic means universal and the knowledge is universal. I always wonder why new agers think this knowledge is so new when its the oldest knowledge there is.....the ancient of days.

 

[radarmark]

Really, all wisdom has an age. My wisdom (if there be any) must be somewhat younger than 64 (or so). The wisdom of the Gathas or the Vedas (the oldest two texts I know of that have been said to contain wisdom) are (maybe) 3,000 years old. The wisdom of the dream-time and the Mother Datura (or Grandfather Peyote) are prehaps 15,000 years old.

The wisdom is there, share it. Don't put labels on it and say "my wisdom is older" or "my wisdom is revealed". Does it matter? Does Gyd really care what you thinK?

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Really, all wisdom has an age.

The wisdom is there, share it.

There's a saying:
"Want to make God Laugh? Tell him your plans".

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

I have a question:

This question is address to us humans,
in regards to the Human species only,
on this earth, numerically speaking,

"Which quantity is higher:
Humans dying every day; or, Humans being born every day?"

I do not intend to alledge that the human polpulation will dwindle if the answer is more humans die each day then are born ---but maybe that's the case ---and if so, cynically speaking, such a fact may have a negligible influence on the world's daily routine.

There is a fact-of-life sombering aspect to this contemplation, no?

 

[radarmark]

Neat thought! Plans and births have a pretty negligible influence, eh, Friend?

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

I don't get it, why would more people die then give birth? Humans have a lot in common with viruses, one is their exponential population growth. Interesting fact about virus, when they run out of food, there population drops...dramatically.