Spiritual Stages Advice?

[Bhaktajan II]

You have discussed the stereotype of cult, but the dictionary defines cult as any school which is not orthodox. Of course, it is not surprising you bend the definition, because your belief system is absolutely a cult.

I have a deep love for Osho, certainly you will be correct to call him a cult leader,

In a standard Dictionary, the word CULT = Sect.

The cult of Jesus Christ was the common name of Christians during the start of its spread. Back then the word cult simply meant a sect ---without the dark overtones of a Charley Manson, David Corresh, Svengali or the Coolaide drinking suicide group.

The hare Krishna's are (vaishnava Hindus) are an orthodox Hindu sect that was transported out of India in 1965 amongst the Neo-hippie counter-culture revolution of the western Nations. The hare krishnas had their close call with cult-like leaders ... they were all forced out and/or ex-communicated ---because of the High strict standard of brahminical discipline required to live in the Hare Krishna Ashrams.

The Hare Krishnas are well into it's 3rd generation of adherents.

Apparently, you intell sources are 25 years behind the times.

The infamous Mr "Rajneesh", aka, "Osho" [why he re-named himself after his disgracefull exciled from his own homeland of India, is a mystery I know nothing about, why should I] "Rajneesh", aka, "Osho" was a text book Hindu Cult leader.

We are interested in bonefide representatives of Yogic Tradition ---that is what the Hare Krishna Chanting Vaishnav Yogis represent.

Lunitik, You are far out of your field when addressing the Words Hare Krishna.

Just dance with those snakes and speak in your tongues ... soon it will be squirrel & opossum season again, so look forward to favorite viddles just coming 'round the mountain when she does.

 

[Lunitik]

In a standard Dictionary, the word CULT = Sect.

The cult of Jesus Christ was the common name of Christians during the start of its spread. Back then the word cult simply meant a sect ---without the dark overtones of a Charley Manson, David Corresh, Svengali or the Coolaide drinking suicide group.

The hare Krishna's are (vaishnava Hindus) are an orthodox Hindu sect that was transported out of India in 1965 amongst the Neo-hippie counter-culture revolution of the western Nations. The hare krishnas had their close call with cult-like leaders ... they were all forced out and/or ex-communicated ---because of the High strict standard of brahminical discipline required to live in the Hare Krishna Ashrams.

The Hare Krishnas are well into it's 3rd generation of adherents.

Apparently, you intell sources are 25 years behind the times.

The infamous Mr "Rajneesh", aka, "Osho" [why he re-named himself after his disgracefull exciled from his own homeland of India, is a mystery I know nothing about, why should I] "Rajneesh", aka, "Osho" was a text book Hindu Cult leader.

We are interested in bonefide representatives of Yogic Tradition ---that is what the Hare Krishna Chanting Vaishnav Yogis represent.

Lunitik, You are far out of your field when addressing the Words Hare Krishna.

Just dance with those snakes and speak in your tongues ... soon it will be squirrel & opossum season again, so look forward to favorite viddles just coming 'round the mountain when she does.

lol... I've been suspecting you were a Western mind trying to comprehend Krishna, and you seem to confirm here. It explains a LOT about the way you approach Him, thank you for clearing it up.

As for Osho, certainly he was a cult leader, I already said that.

Still I love him deeply, though.

 

[Persona]

Without ego, you are not separate from God.

Ego is the only division, but it looks strange, perhaps it will be clearer if I say both ego and God are merely concepts?

My whole endeavor is bring people to a state of empty awareness, free from the concepts of the mind - to simply see things as they actually are. In this there is a miracle, existence itself becomes your subjective experience. All the notions you have read about God are in this experience, but how to come back to and retain the ego?

Ego must fall, at least briefly, to encounter this... once it is encountered, you will long to learn how to reside there. Yet, it does not affect life outwardly, it only brings a different flavor, it makes life absolutely fulfilling. You realize this has always been what you looked for. It was you all along, but we grope outwardly for it, seeing this, you will kick yourself!

I think I know & have experienced (temporarily) what you mean.
But we can't function like that.
And not only that - there's healing work to be done!
Our ego (mind) is our best friend & worst enemy... protecting us from truth with compassionate illusional lies until we can handle more.

 

[Persona]

I do not believe in luck, for me it is merely a poorly executed transition

Let me explain more... This Zen story is about how good luck or bad luck is all in perspective - how you look at it & how events unfold.
The story goes kindof like this:
One day, a farmer's horse ran away & his neighbors said, "Such bad luck!"
He said, "Maybe."
Then, his horse came back with 2 other wild horses.
The neighbors then said, "Such good luck!"
He again said, "Maybe."
Then his son tried riding one of the wild horses, was thrown & broke his leg.
His neighbors said, "Such bad luck!"
He said, "Maybe."
Then military were drafting young men to fight the war but seeing his son's leg passed him by.
His neighbors said, "Such good luck!"
He again replied, "Maybe."

Deeds are the outward expressions which first arose - perhaps subconsciously - as a particular intent. Intent is a constant thing, it is impossible to act without some intent first arising.

Yeah, that makes sense.
I just don't see intent without any action to have as much influence as intent with action.

Do not get me started on marriage though

Why, Lunitik?
It seems that marriage is getting a bad rap these days.
I believe that spiritually, we cannot "own" anyone, as marriage sometimes feels like. But I see the necessary value of marriage for the stability of children... and the stability of future society.

 

[Persona]

That's the whole point: to shake to the core!

Yes, it can be very painful for some, there is almost a feeling like you are losing part of yourself somehow - even though perhaps you don't want it, still it is part of you. In this respect, I was somewhat lucky, or perhaps I merely dove in head first. For me, life itself became utterly pointless, in everything I saw the absolute impermanence to an almost exaggerated extent.

This primed me to let go of the ego, the layers, absolutely, to not even question because I already saw this as not all there is. I knew there had to be something more to life than just occupying yourself until you die. Fundamentally I saw there had to be something basically wrong with how I saw the world.

I was absolutely ready to die to find this out, so giving up myself in a mere contemplation was not difficult. Yet, all of a sudden, it possessed me - just pure love.

That's beautiful, Lunitik!
I can relate somewhat but I haven't felt possessed by pure love.
I've felt spirit and love and amazing things - but it comes & goes, doesn't it for you?

You hit on what I've been most concerned about lately.
I've come to the point where I see that everything is temporary - & that much (if not all) of our motivation is illusional - based on limited perspective. I keep encountering the word, "BELIEVE" - through literature, through music - over & over. And me with my hard head, I think I'm finally getting it - I need to believe more! For a while, I thought, "Believe what?" But it doesn't matter so much like Donnan mentioned... Believing/hoping & having faith that excites us & motivates us is what matters!

It's a little strange though, to realize that as I'm fooling myself, I choose to fool myself in this or that particular way.

 

[Persona]

I believe in the fairy tale. Sometimes belief is all you need.

Sometimes.

 

[Persona]

...It's the mis-identification of the present body one is living-in that causes "false-ego".

If one is seeking to "Merge into the primeviel Nirvana state of Brahman Sleep" ---it requires merging one's individual-indivisable spark of being aka a 'Soul'.

Of course, becoming aware of one's soul [via Classical Silent Mantra Meditation] leaves one feeling aloof and self-content and thus, pre-disposed to less worldly pursuits.

But I am referring to the aspirant that has achieved 'atma-rama' 'self-satisfaction of the Soul by the soul' ---this is where the blissfull nature of the soul is felt ---thus the mind plays secound fiddle to the desire to stay intune with the Soul's contented repose in and of itself. Yet this can happen today and still leaves years and years of secular life ahead of one's self . . . so service . . . to other souls seems natural.

At the time of death, one can flunk the exams or ace them.

I know I may be initiating more questions than I seem to answer ---maybe.

Yeah... there are a lot of questions I may never know the answers to regarding after death.
I believe that there is probably some type of reincarnation cycle - but I don't think understanding it is important, other than maybe peace that we continue in some way & motivation to make that way in progress.

If I understand you correctly, Bhaktajan, you're referring to deep meditation when you may even be able to "astral travel" (or whatever it's called)... & are not in tune with your body because you are completely in tune with your spirit which doesn't have the limits of form the body has.

I know you didn't mention astral travel - but it seemed to be implied when you mentioned, "service to other souls seems natural." Would you expand on that & if you believe in astral travel & why?
(Lots of question as you predicted, grasshopper Master. )

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Yeah... there are a lot of questions I may never know the answers to regarding . . .

Persona,

Respectfully, I must remind you of the Importance of "Learning by Hearing". This is what Jesus said too. [Did Christ say this? TBC]

We learn "Hearing, Chanting & remembering" [sravanam, kirtanam, smaranam]

We sit attentatively and Listen.
We re-iterate our lessons on our exams.
We remember our lessons well via "Flash cards"

Having said this:

99% of knowledge comes from direct experts.

Guru = one's mentor (ie: Joey on the street corner; one's family doctor)
Sadhu = the colleages of one's Mentor (Joey's Pals; Other certified MDs)
sastra = the text books.

These 3 "checks" verify the answers to all knowledge ---one must investigate knowledge on one's own volition ---no matter how many births since time-immemorial as it may require.

 

[Persona]

Wait!

This is the most relevant question!

Lots of relevant questions, aren't there!

The soul is an individual indivisable living force ---in the world of material energy. Material Energy is actual inanimate dead matter.

When a soul enters the material matter ---life is seen to come alive.

Wait!
(Just do nothing, besides allow your body systems to function and wait for 5 to 500 seconds. )
While you wait...
Here is a brief message from our sponser: "Life & energy goes on & on... within you & around you."

I read Leibniz's theory about Monads & how they are like spiritual atoms - the essence of all energy & life. In themselves, they cannot perish through natural means... They can be combined with other monads (composites) which can then be broken down. He theorized that the mulitiplicity that they posses of being able to change while being the same is what we refer to as perception or subconsciousness.

How do you think our subconscious minds (which dictate most of our thoughts, feelings & actions) relate with our soul/spirit?

The word "Person" is indeed the present ego self-identification borne of the very body one has. If the person in question is White, black, short tall fat skinny smart dumb rich poor old young sick muscle-bound ---it all shapes one's Ego. That sense of self is not eternal; it is temporal. The present body is borne of past acts; While it lasts it affords certain stratum of interpersonal exchanges; when death arrives all bodily traits are lost.

The spirit-life force that eminates from one's individually alloted & assigned soul-being ... is actually a "Persona".

I am proclaiming [as per the Vedas] that the definition of a "Soul" is "Persona".

Each soul [as per the Vedas] is a Persona seeking for the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the Ultimate mystery of Life.

Yet, we Souls seek out repose in other persons. This is the defacto proof of the Nature of the Mystery of life.

We souls in the material world are ultimately in pursuit of the audience of the Fountainhead reservior of all things Persona, Godhead who is a Person Himself. God is the Original Person. We souls are Persons. The spark parts and parcel souls serve the Supreme Soul with ettiquette that is specific and absolute ... as is God Himself a very specific Absolute Persona with Transcendental & Unlimited self-born Prowess. This is the simply definition of theism where God is His own Person by definition.

I hadn't thought of it that way before. (Please tell me if you're just messing with me, (joking around) since my forum name is Persona.)
Assuming you're serious... Persona (what one presents) is considered soul if you consider soul the combination of spirit and body. So, since we are only presenting a part of who we are & what we know - it is somewhat of a front or "persona." Did I get that right?

I was just reading about how the only way for change is through isolation. The only way we can progress is to be somewhat isolated from truth/God. So we have ego & illusions to isolate us so we can progress.

 

[Persona]

Wait!

This is the most relevant question!

A cult is an institution headed by an absolute despot.

A cult is where a charasmatic leader issues idiosyncratic dictums based on his own whims and has followers that blindly carry out orders proclaimed by the cult leader.

In the present day sense, A cult requires a Living Leader that is known to be acting outside the injunctions of the Text Books, the concensus of contemporaries & even one's own traditional mentor.

A cult is famously known for acts commited by followers of self-appointed visionaries with uncommon insight ---yet usually, the so-called extra-ordinary stature of the Clut Leader is due to Vainity to impose one's will via a follower of insipid and vapid will and detemination.

Cult leaders are leaders of week-willed people.

Mind you, I am referring to classic Elmer Gantry type religious despot wannabes ---I am referring to classic science of propaganda and sales and marketing and novela plots or TV cop shows or local Politicans or pimps or Big-Pharma or Monsanto or Ronald MacDonald or staurady morning cartoon commercials.

I came to realize that how my life-time religion told me what underwear to wear & how to care for it, what to eat & drink, how much to pay to leaders (10% of income), how to spend my time, how to think etc... (Mormonism) was cult-like, I've also realized that many governments are also cult-like. Families can be considered cult-like. But there are healthy cults, and unhealthy ones.

No need to reinvent the wheel, but that doesn't mean we have to continue using wooden wheels, just because it's TRADITION!

 

[Bhaktajan II]

"service to other souls seems natural."

Other souls means "other(s)" Living People.

We are part and parcel entities in the machine of life ---we must each do our allotted duties ---for the good of civic society.

We are all civil servants: "Do onto others as you would have done to you" ---this is what I meant.

Astral projection is dangerous to find one's self in ---cause there is the danger that you can't get back in.

Yes, IMHO, ghosts are Astral bodies (mind-intelligence-false ego; ~aka respectively, manas-budhi-ahankara) that have been stripped of their gross body (earth-water-fire-air-ether) before their natural death occurred.

IE: A bomb blast etc will leave one standing and "thinking & willing" after their gross body is evaporated in a flash.

The problem with dis-embodied astral bodies is lack of physical means to carry out any activities.

A person of weak will, Highly intoxicated and in a state of quasi-deep sleep can be inhabited by a Ghost that seeks "to enjoy once again" ---until they fad-away to take a new birth; upon which time there past life of "thinking & willing" will be dessolved and supplemented with a new vehical of birth ---appropo to the Karma (karma-phalam - fruits of works) accrued.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

It is the self-centered cheating that must be avoided. The rules actually free one to be "independent".

Arjuna, in the Gita, had to fight in a civil war that involved fighting his own extended family and cousins and even his teachers ---doing your duties takes daily work.

The morning constitution requires that you heed urgings that miraculously maintain and perpetuate you wellbeing ---yet it is NOT in your controll to change the rules of when to evacuate. You are a steward of your own tabernacle. Each spire and Door hinge and organ pipe must be routinely tuned up as per a calander of seasons.

It's about the cultivation of ettiquette; personal ettiquette for preperation of gaining the audience of Godhead.

 

[Persona]

...99% of knowledge comes from direct experts.

Guru = one's mentor (ie: Joey on the street corner; one's family doctor)
Sadhu = the colleages of one's Mentor (Joey's Pals; Other certified MDs)
sastra = the text books.

These 3 "checks" verify the answers to all knowledge ---one must investigate knowledge on one's own volition ---no matter how many births since time-immemorial as it may require.

I disagree, Bhaktajan.
Knowledge: Information and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.

I grew up with scriptures and prophets' teachings crammed down my throat.... for years and years... only to discover that the "kingdom (experience & knowledge) of God (& truth) is mostly WITHIN us.
Socrates pointed out that we already have it in us, we just need to be pointed in the right direction to see it.

I definitely value others' perspectives & I think we can learn from each other, but I must compare any info with my own experience of both intuition and common sense.

 

[Persona]

...We are all civil servants: "Do onto others as you would have done to you" ---this is what I meant.

Astral projection is dangerous to find one's self in ---cause there is the danger that you can't get back in.

Thanks for explaining what you meant.
I believe we should love others as we love ourselves... but I think a step further is understanding ourselves & others & that sometimes others would rather have us love them as they prefer, not so much as we'd prefer.
I think love is hoping & striving for what is best, through trial & error.

I've wondered about astral projection - it's even implied in the bible.
I've worried about not being able to get back in or having your "house possessed by other guests while you're gone."
Still, it seems that there is a power of healing, beyond just physical healing.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

...99% of knowledge comes from direct experts.

Where is the dis-aggreement?

You may be conflating "free will" with "free-lunch".

The thing "within" is the "every man for himself sense of self-preservation". It's a good thing. It is your own individual indivisable soul aka being aka self.

But the thing "within" doesn't pay the rent. It harnesses nothing ---but it does proclaim that we are all our own individual indivisable soul ---but it takes a Village to raise a child.

99% of Western history is not filled with pages of stories of Men seeking their "Truth within" ---rather they are fill with 99% of humanity seeking to conquer other regions and resources for their own building of sand castle-like lives that lasted for only a short blip of time.

Many a Lad was sent down the wrong path by "Bogus Teachers". So we must be always doing the 'neti-neti' process ---seaching for the absolute and being able to discern what is not absolute. We are all yogis on our own recognisance.

That's how gang members eventually wind up in prison or simply dead in the streets.

University & Job want ads teach and students learn ---and employment is had.

You MUST approach BONEFIDE TEACHERS.

How to distinguish a Bonefide from a bogus mentor?

That must be by trail & error on your own recognisance.

Knowledge: Information and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.

All of this is learnt from an expert in the field of knowledge being sought.

Car problems = see a car mechanic.
Plumbing problems = see a car plumber.
Learn dancing = see a expert dancer.
Need a Taxi = Hail a taxi driver.
Need the police = call 911

Each specific need is service by a very specific specialist group --that is how things get done. There is a time and place for everything under heaven ---and Location, Location, Location place one at the right place at the right time for the maximum values ---all made possible by the gumption & determination of one's own free will.

 

[Persona]

Where is the dis-aggreement?
You may be conflating "free will" with "free-lunch".

You may be conflating incorporating knowledge... with reading about others incorporating knowledge.
99% of knowledge DOES NOT come from "experts"...
If you considered oneself expert, that would be different, but you specifically referred to others.
Only you can think, feel or speak for yourself.

Car problems = see a car mechanic.
Plumbing problems = see a car plumber.
Learn dancing = see a expert dancer.
Need a Taxi = Hail a taxi driver.
Need the police = call 911

Each specific need is service by a very specific specialist group --that is how things get done. There is a time and place for everything under heaven ---and Location, Location, Location place one at the right place at the right time for the maximum values ---all made possible by the gumption & determination of one's own free will.

So... according to you, a woman who gets imprisoned for being raped just didn't have the gumption to call 911.

 

[radarmark]

Most knowledge comes from without (picture child learning language), this is true. And for most of humanity (unfortunately) this is as far as it gets. But for understanding we need to go within (connect the dots like we did learning to read).

Understanding "life, the universe, and everything" (substitute whatever you think our highest goal is -- to Redeem Creation, for instance) is another matter. Here it is primarily a function of "higher self" (again substitute whatever you like -- like soul or consciousness or spirit), not merely tacit knowledge or hermeneutics.

 

[Persona]

Most knowledge comes from without (picture child learning language), this is true. And for most of humanity (unfortunately) this is as far as it gets. But for understanding we need to go within (connect the dots like we did learning to read).

Understanding "life, the universe, and everything" (substitute whatever you think our highest goal is -- to Redeem Creation, for instance) is another matter. Here it is primarily a function of "higher self" (again substitute whatever you like -- like soul or consciousness or spirit), not merely tacit knowledge or hermeneutics.

Thanks for tying it together, like that, Radarmark.

I acknowledge that we depend on external stimulus to learn... from our parents, to teachers. Yet, if someone was unable to incorporate & understand external knowledge, it would not be knowledge to them. So, knowledge is not 99% from external stimulus & only 1% from our ability to incorporate it... I imagine the percentages vary with circumstances & as we become more abstract in our thinking (as you mentioned), but at least it would be more like 50-50.

Even as we get more spiritually advanced, we are more in tune with the internal well of knowledge, but IMO, we still need others to be like mirrors and help us realize and heal unwounded aspects of ourselves. It's easy to seem spiritually whole when nobody's bugging you.

 

[Lunitik]

I think I know & have experienced (temporarily) what you mean.
But we can't function like that.
And not only that - there's healing work to be done!
Our ego (mind) is our best friend & worst enemy... protecting us from truth with compassionate illusional lies until we can handle more.

I do function in a state similar to what you are likely referring, what can be more healing than shining that light of illumination onto another though?

The ordinary mind also brings all sufferings, it is the nature of all that is wrong in life, for without its veil everything in life is simply beautiful - even the wars, how can you say they are not beautiful? Wars are simply the destruction making way for the new, and the new is always more beautiful than the old.

Mind doesn't want it, but then mind fears all change - have you ever noticed it? As a person gets older, they gradually become more and more immune to whatever is happening in the world, they always want things to remain as they remember them in their youth.

 

[Lunitik]

Let me explain more... This Zen story is about how good luck or bad luck is all in perspective - how you look at it & how events unfold.
The story goes kindof like this:
One day, a farmer's horse ran away & his neighbors said, "Such bad luck!"
He said, "Maybe."
Then, his horse came back with 2 other wild horses.
The neighbors then said, "Such good luck!"
He again said, "Maybe."
Then his son tried riding one of the wild horses, was thrown & broke his leg.
His neighbors said, "Such bad luck!"
He said, "Maybe."
Then military were drafting young men to fight the war but seeing his son's leg passed him by.
His neighbors said, "Such good luck!"
He again replied, "Maybe."

I enjoyed this, thank you

Yet, it seems to me the message is about not perceiving anything, not drawing any conclusions about life, simply to see what happens.

My statement about luck being a poorly executed transition was a joke though, it is said by many that all is pre-destined, thus what is perceived as luck has been some noticeable change in the direction of the script.

Yeah, that makes sense.
I just don't see intent without any action to have as much influence as intent with action.

Do you pray? Have you ever had a prayer answered?

I would say that intent actually has MORE influence than mere action, because the intent in every thought is much wider reaching. Depending on how intense the intent, although you might now know, you could create war or peace in another country all together. In action, you struggle to make a change in your single community.

Why, Lunitik?
It seems that marriage is getting a bad rap these days.
I believe that spiritually, we cannot "own" anyone, as marriage sometimes feels like. But I see the necessary value of marriage for the stability of children... and the stability of future society.

For me, marriage is a basic mistrust, it is a contract that says "even if our love dies, you cannot leave me". I do not see that marriage provides stability at all, in fact it allows both parties to totally stop trying to grow their love, maintain it. It has become the goal, and so now all love is finished, it becomes an arrangement without love. Now you may fight frequently, and the child sees this as just the way love is. The child will emulate this disgusting arrangement when they are older and the cycle continues.

For me, love should be enough, you shouldn't have be contracted in this way.