I Am That I Am

[seattlegal]

Okay SG, see if I have this right: the inclination to do evil is universal, the possibility of sin is universal, and the capacity for conscious is universal. If so, assuming acting in accoradance with conscious (which I interpret with doing what G!d asks of us or following the dao) is of value, the the capability to do good is universal. Work?

Yep. (Assuming that there is no limiting defect that might impair this capacity.)

 

[Ben Masada]

Both good & evil are subjective, one man's good is another man's evil, they are presupposed by cultural morality.

IMHO, that opinion is not absolute. There must be some kind of natural standard for humans. Notice that I said in absolute terms. Cultures diverge indeed from people to people, but a pattern must be there to distinguish man from the irrational animal.
Ben

 

[Etu Malku]

IMHO, that opinion is not absolute. There must be some kind of natural standard for humans. Notice that I said in absolute terms. Cultures diverge indeed from people to people, but a pattern must be there to distinguish man from the irrational animal.
Ben

And what do you think that pattern would be?
It seems to me that early man behaved much differently than modern man?

 

[Ben Masada]

And what do you think that pattern would be?
It seems to me that early man behaved much differently than modern man?

I don't know; some kind of natural instinct in the essence of being human.
If not with outsiders, at least in their tribal relations.
Ben

 

[radarmark]

EM, early man merely killed an individual enemy and then ate him or her. Modern man kills entire nations.

 

[radarmark]

Perhaps, Ben, the "natural instinct in the essence of being human" is really something like "the realization that self, family, tribe, race, and country matter less than ideas, species, or world".

 

[Ben Masada]

EM, early man merely killed an individual enemy and then ate him or her. Modern man kills entire nations.

You are right but, outsiders. This form of canibalism did not happen within one's own tribe. That's what I meant by the different pattern in human behavior from irrational animals.
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

Perhaps, Ben, the "natural instinct in the essence of being human" is really something like "the realization that self, family, tribe, race, and country matter less than ideas, species, or world".

Interesting that I would rather take the opposite of it. Head hunters, for instance, would hunt in the outside world for the survaval of their own specie.
Ben

 

[radarmark]

Interesting spins, Ben. I think "species" would mean homo sapiens. Hence head-hunters and cannibals, while not hunting within their family or tribe, hunt within the species (and it is provable that ritual cannibalism does occur within the tribal or even familial unit, but that is irrelevant). Until one can identify with something greater than tribe or nation (which I do not believe is instinctual, but generated by thought and empathy), the "essence of a human being" is missing. Mahavira, Gautama, Zoraoster, Laotzi, and Moses were all speaking to their tribe (that was fixed by historical circumstances) but not about their tribe, but their essential humanity.

Anyway, that is my opinion.

 

[salishan]

u are not an afterthought of Gyd
my friend Isaac tells me
Gyd's gift to u , is
not immortal life but this life , this
breath of the Divine
which Gyd has lent u

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ben Masada
exquisite creature

i find u'r initial post thoughtful & deeply affecting

I Am That I Am
...
In Moses' vision of the burning bush, ...
"I Am That I Am." Just tell them that "I Am" has sent you. (Exodus 3:13-14)

"God Is," that's the bottom line.
...
To man, only parts of what Adonai is has been granted.
Attributes,
...
Jesus dared to define God, he said that God is Spirit. (John 4:24)
To man, the spirit was granted with the breath of life breathed in his nostrils, ... "till death ... " when the breath of life goes back to Adonai ...

Ben

believe me , i get it

but with the deepest of respect , Ben
i must disagree

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

nature is

Gyd does

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

ascribing attributes to Gyd is idolatry
(inverse anthropomorphism)

"Gyd is" is a Hellenistic idealization of Gyd
(giving Gyd "form")

nature has attributes , &
nature has form
(things science can define)

"nature" is concretely perceptible
(nature has one foot in the present , the other foot
squarely in the past tense) , semantically definable

for Jesus the Galilean to call Gyd spirit
might not be so far off
("no attributes" , "no form")

but "spirit" defined in a modern (abstract) sense
(not Hebrew ruach = breath-of-life
not Greek pneuma = life-force)

spirit , stepping outside of nature
(super-natural)

Ben , "i am what i am" might (in Ancient Hebrew) be better translated
in the future tense = "i will be what i will be"
("i will be encountered where & when i will be encountered")

Gyd is always a new possibility
(one foot in the present , other foot in the future tense)

Gyd makes u other than what u are
(breaks the status quo , breaches nature)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Gyd changes lives
Gyd does

Gyd is not is

 

[BrotherMichaelSky]

wow.....
i'm a little dizzy from reading all that, but I would like to chime in on my belief on the topic.

Originally Posted by Ben Masada

With the acquisition of knowledge, we have become almost one with God, were not for the attribute of eternal life, which was denied us. (Gen. 3:22) Although like gods we are to be, like men we are supposed to die. (Psalm 82:6,7)

In conclusion, as Jesus dared to define God, he said that God is Spirit. (John 4:24) To man, the spirit was granted with the breath of life breathed in his nostrils, as to make of him a living soul "till death do us part," when the breath of life goes back to Adonai and the body returns to the dust. (Eccl. 12:7) Then, the soul which man had become be no more. (Gen. 2:8)

Ben
-------------------
I cut the bottom off of your post because I think it holds the key to understanding.
The very first sentence in my quote is pivotal...
The Anathema which denied the " Fabulous preexistence of souls" is the culprit for the misunderstanding here.
It demanded that such be the understanding - when it was not a universally believed idea.
And though it is a misunderstanding - it does not invalidate the second sentence....
We have been endowed with eternal life since our creation ( tis our very nature ). It is the interpretation of what we are doing for that eternal period which is in question.

and onward to your next paragraph:
Your mention of Spirit - are you indeed sure that that it the proper term to use?
If you are to go back to ancient sources, will you not find an argument over just such an interpretation? I recall the consensus leaning more heavily to " the Waters" in it's earliest usage, as opposed to spirit. ( which at another time we can get into as well - as it refers to baptism ) Though that may not be what the most popular "Bibles" have it translated as....

And the very last bit - once again - Anathema looking over our shoulders..... shhh, no one mention reincarnation.....
but surprise - there IS a basis in truth here.... and I apologize for moving away from sources you might quickly verify, but it is my understanding that the very last sentence is the ENTIRE reason for the appearance of all those Descended Beings mentioned back in this thread.
And Specifically, the Appearance of the Master Jesus changed the whole scenario for us.
His Dispensation was the entire system of Karma and Rebirth - ( or so it seems to me - as my limited intellect will allow me to comprehend ). Where Souls from our distant path were given a method to "cleanse" themselves of their crimes in an ongoing fashion, As opposed to having to wait for the end of the Cycle to begin again. Therefore giving us an IMMENSE benefit in the refining of our souls. The ability to Ascend into Higher Realms consciously.

Which explains, in part, my concept of I AM.
I AM - the way of saying GOD in human form. When you have realized that what you think of as a mind is a poor, shadowed imitation of the intellect which you are a part of, and you allow that superior intellect to do the interacting with the world of illusion around you. In other words, when you decide that the mind you have been constructing for yourself since your birth is but a poor creation - at best, and you seek what did he constructing, you find that I AM.
and you start to realize that I AM having individual parts, makes perfect sense in the grand scheme of things. As you begin to study ANY subject we find that the closer one looks, the more there is to notice - GOD is the same way.
At the highest range of vibration is the ONE - where ALL is understood.
At the lowest end of vibration is infinite variety - that which will make up ALL.
one must not attempt to find God from the reverse direction - because it requires knowing ALL the facts ( how long you reckon that'll take?).
but to go the other direction - from within ones own being, find the source of Creation within the Human, and watch it closely, if you want to understand yourself well enough to experience I AM..... and TRULY appreciate what those who came before were up to.
Because experiencing that is not a given - it is a possibility and a gift, they showed the way - but those Great Beings are NOT going to work out your Karma for you. That would make it pretty pointless, wouldn't it? It is YOUR responsibility to raise your vibration to a level which will find a much more spiritual plane upon your demise, or truly - Then, the soul which man had become be no more. (Gen. 2:8)

 

[BrotherMichaelSky]

wow.....
i'm a little dizzy from reading all that, but I would like to chime in on my belief on the topic.

Originally Posted by Ben Masada

With the acquisition of knowledge, we have become almost one with God, were not for the attribute of eternal life, which was denied us. (Gen. 3:22) Although like gods we are to be, like men we are supposed to die. (Psalm 82:6,7)

In conclusion, as Jesus dared to define God, he said that God is Spirit. (John 4:24) To man, the spirit was granted with the breath of life breathed in his nostrils, as to make of him a living soul "till death do us part," when the breath of life goes back to Adonai and the body returns to the dust. (Eccl. 12:7) Then, the soul which man had become be no more. (Gen. 2:8)

Ben
-------------------
I cut the bottom off of your post because I think it holds the key to understanding.
The very first sentence in my quote is pivotal...
The Anathema which denied the " Fabulous preexistence of souls" is the culprit for the misunderstanding here.
It demanded that such be the understanding - when it was not a universally believed idea.
And though it is a misunderstanding - it does not invalidate the second sentence....
We have been endowed with eternal life since our creation ( tis our very nature ). It is the interpretation of what we are doing for that eternal period which is in question.

and onward to your next paragraph:
Your mention of Spirit - are you indeed sure that that it the proper term to use?
If you are to go back to ancient sources, will you not find an argument over just such an interpretation? I recall the consensus leaning more heavily to " the Waters" in it's earliest usage, as opposed to spirit. ( which at another time we can get into as well - as it refers to baptism ) Though that may not be what the most popular "Bibles" have it translated as....

And the very last bit - once again - Anathema looking over our shoulders..... shhh, no one mention reincarnation.....
but surprise - there IS a basis in truth here.... and I apologize for moving away from sources you might quickly verify, but it is my understanding that the very last sentence is the ENTIRE reason for the appearance of all those Descended Beings mentioned back in this thread.
And Specifically, the Appearance of the Master Jesus changed the whole scenario for us.
His Dispensation was the entire system of Karma and Rebirth - ( or so it seems to me - as my limited intellect will allow me to comprehend ). Where Souls from our distant path were given a method to "cleanse" themselves of their crimes in an ongoing fashion, As opposed to having to wait for the end of the Cycle to begin again. Therefore giving us an IMMENSE benefit in the refining of our souls. The ability to Ascend into Higher Realms consciously.

Which explains, in part, my concept of I AM.
I AM - the way of saying GOD in human form. When you have realized that what you think of as a mind is a poor, shadowed imitation of the intellect which you are a part of, and you allow that superior intellect to do the interacting with the world of illusion around you. In other words, when you decide that the mind you have been constructing for yourself since your birth is but a poor creation - at best, and you seek what did he constructing, you find that I AM.
and you start to realize that I AM having individual parts, makes perfect sense in the grand scheme of things. As you begin to study ANY subject we find that the closer one looks, the more there is to notice - GOD is the same way.
At the highest range of vibration is the ONE - where ALL is understood.
At the lowest end of vibration is infinite variety - that which will make up ALL.
one must not attempt to find God from the reverse direction - because it requires knowing ALL the facts ( how long you reckon that'll take?).
but to go the other direction - from within ones own being, find the source of Creation within the Human, and watch it closely, if you want to understand yourself well enough to experience I AM..... and TRULY appreciate what those who came before were up to.
Because experiencing that is not a given - it is a possibility and a gift, they showed the way - but those Great Beings are NOT going to work out your Karma for you. That would make it pretty pointless, wouldn't it? It is YOUR responsibility to raise your vibration to a level which will find a much more spiritual plane upon your demise, or truly - Then, the soul which man had become be no more. (Gen. 2:8)

 

[Ben Masada]

Interesting spins, Ben. I think "species" would mean homo sapiens. Hence head-hunters and cannibals, while not hunting within their family or tribe, hunt within the species (and it is provable that ritual cannibalism does occur within the tribal or even familial unit, but that is irrelevant). Until one can identify with something greater than tribe or nation (which I do not believe is instinctual, but generated by thought and empathy), the "essence of a human being" is missing. Mahavira, Gautama, Zoraoster, Laotzi, and Moses were all speaking to their tribe (that was fixed by historical circumstances) but not about their tribe, but their essential humanity.

Anyway, that is my opinion.

You are right. I really did not mean "species" in the sense of homo sapiens but in terms of tribal society. They would kill outsiders to survive through a bad winter, for instance. But this is already way off the theme of the thread.

BTW, I woe you some explanation about the Mishneh Torah of Maimonides. I think that's mainly about the 13 Princinples of Faith. The Rambam Hall reopened in the Tel-Aviv Library, and I started reading the Mishneh Torah. I'll be bringing you my understanding of those principles in the form of a thread. If I am not mistaken it is about the 12th and 13th principles. Those about the Messiah and resurrection.
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

u are not an afterthought of Gyd
my friend Isaac tells me
Gyd's gift to u , is
not immortal life but this life , this
breath of the Divine
which Gyd has lent u

Ben Masada
exquisite creature

i find u'r initial post thoughtful & deeply affecting
believe me , i get it

but with the deepest of respect , Ben
i must disagree

nature is

Gyd does

If you are not talking about nature in pantheistic terms, Nature is just another name for God, according to Baruch the Spinoza and myself.

ascribing attributes to Gyd is idolatry

(inverse anthropomorphism)

So, says Moses Maimonides in his "Guide for the Perplexed" and now Salishan. And BTW, I agree with you both. I don't even like the word "Attributes." It gives the sense that God is being attributed what He is. For instance, "love." God is Love. He does not have love. To have love implies partiality. You could have love for me and not for another. That's not with God Who is Love for all.

"Gyd is" is a Hellenistic idealization of Gyd

(giving Gyd "form") nature has attributes , &
nature has form (things science can define)

Therefore, nature with attributes and form is nature from the viewpoint of Pantheism. That's not my conception of God.

"nature" is concretely perceptible

(nature has one foot in the present , the other foot
squarely in the past tense) , semantically definable

Definitely not God according to Jesus as he introduced the idea of Spirit. (John 4:24) That's the one position I stand for.

for Jesus the Galilean to call Gyd spirit

might not be so far off ("no attributes" , "no form")

I can't agree with you more.

but "spirit" defined in a modern (abstract) sense

(not Hebrew ruach = breath-of-life
not Greek pneuma = life-force)

I agree with you in both modalities.

spirit

, stepping outside of nature

(super-natural)

Great! I am with you all the way.

Ben , "i am what i am" might (in Ancient Hebrew) be better translated

in the future tense = "i will be what i will be" ("i will be encountered where & when i will be encountered")

I can't agree with you on this one. Being God eternal, there no is time to eternity. Therefore, I can't think of God in the past or in the future; only that He is what He is in the continuous present.

Gyd is always a new possibility

(one foot in the present , other foot in the future tense)

Definitely not. The future does not exist until it becomes past. And present, only God is. Man is constantly jumping from the past into the past.

Gyd makes u other than what u are

(breaks the status quo , breaches nature)

That's the nature of God. Always on the make. Once Albert Einsteing was asked if he believed in God. He answered and said that all his life was trying to catch God at His work of creation. That's what God is, all the time at creating. IMO, Einstein was referring to the expansion of the universe.

Gyd changes lives

Gyd does Gyd is not is

Through nature. The bottom line, therefore, is that nature is the tool in the "hands" of God to create and expand His creation.

Ben