What is the essence of all religions?

bhaktajan said:
One God = An Absolute Existing Persona.

Absolute entities require absolute ettiquette and pre-requisite skills and devote desires.
Click to expand...

You should look up the definition of persona, certainly it is not what you mean. What etiquette and skills are involved in simply being love? What devotional desires are required to simply grow in love? Has Krishna exhibited the sort of constraint the Hindu puts on himself? Krishna has absolutely embraced life, danced with life, he has understood the game of life like few others in history. Please read the Gita free from your biases, you will see the absolute freedom Krishna exhibits and THAT is his beauty.

I do not think anyone has ever lived life so beautifully as Krishna, but what has become of his teachings is utterly disgusting. You have tried to say that it is because Krishna is God, and thus can do whatever he wants... then who are you? Why is it not permitted that you enjoy life as much? All the traditions seem basically against life, I do not understand.
 
Bringing love to its very peaks is what Genesis means by live abundantly.

Traditions seem to create absolute poverty.

The only real problem is that the impoverished believe themselves unworthy of the wealth available to them. This is the greatest obstacle currently to religious growth in the world.

If you have been given life, you have been given permission to have it abundantly!

Perhaps your God is simply a miser?
 
Lunitik said:
If you have been given life, you have been given permission to have it abundantly!

Perhaps your God is simply a miser?
Click to expand...
And who had 'given' us life? Who's permission do "I" need to have abundance?
You talk as if there's actually some Being in control of everything ;)
 
Etu Malku said:
And who had 'given' us life? Who's permission do "I" need to have abundance?
You talk as if there's actually some Being in control of everything ;)
Click to expand...

He is a Hindu, please keep in mind who I am addressed and THEN look at what I am saying. It is not worthwhile to dispute the existence of God, it does not affect the goal at all. I would rather use those beliefs to point at truth, for they already provide a platform of trust for the believer.

What I am pointing to is exactly what Krishna pointed to as well, yet it is the same Buddha pointed to also - yet they are absolutely against one another on the topic of God. Despite this, they draw the same conclusions because the peak of all religious endeavor is EXACTLY the same.

I see your blindness to this fact as your greatest obstacle to any real attainment, your belief system seems to lack the basic trust which is necessary, it seems be a basic "no" and it shows your lack of maturity.

To become individual, to become independent of the parents, it is absolutely necessary for the child to say "no" at some point. Now, once the person has become centered in his own distinct identity, it is time again to say "yes" - you have not yet arrived at this "yes" of the mature seeker. You seem to have fundamentally sought some avenue into religion which does not require this notion of God but in reality is actually makes your path more difficult.

I do not uphold that there is anything distinct like many envision as God, yet what has been pointed at is certainly a truth. It is the individual, it is the experience of oneness which they point towards - even if this has been forgotten today in the traditions.

It is only forgotten because it has been generation after generation of followers, blind leading the blind. All faiths have taken up a certain aspect of worshiping, and fundamentally this means you consider yourself lower.
 
Experience causes all fallacy to drop, although language will remain the same in most cases. Whether it is the Higher Self or God or Truth or Source makes no difference, the point is the very experience, and that is beyond words. Do not complain about the ring around the finger, you will miss where the finger itself is pointing towards...

Words are ornamental, just noise feebly trying to describe silence.
 
Lunitik said:
He is a Hindu, please keep in mind who I am addressed and THEN look at what I am saying. It is not worthwhile to dispute the existence of God, it does not affect the goal at all. I would rather use those beliefs to point at truth, for they already provide a platform of trust for the believer.

What I am pointing to is exactly what Krishna pointed to as well, yet it is the same Buddha pointed to also - yet they are absolutely against one another on the topic of God. Despite this, they draw the same conclusions because the peak of all religious endeavor is EXACTLY the same.

I see your blindness to this fact as your greatest obstacle to any real attainment, your belief system seems to lack the basic trust which is necessary, it seems be a basic "no" and it shows your lack of maturity.

To become individual, to become independent of the parents, it is absolutely necessary for the child to say "no" at some point. Now, once the person has become centered in his own distinct identity, it is time again to say "yes" - you have not yet arrived at this "yes" of the mature seeker. You seem to have fundamentally sought some avenue into religion which does not require this notion of God but in reality is actually makes your path more difficult.

I do not uphold that there is anything distinct like many envision as God, yet what has been pointed at is certainly a truth. It is the individual, it is the experience of oneness which they point towards - even if this has been forgotten today in the traditions.

It is only forgotten because it has been generation after generation of followers, blind leading the blind. All faiths have taken up a certain aspect of worshiping, and fundamentally this means you consider yourself lower.
Click to expand...
Your inability to grasp your own concepts and self-grandeur is truly your stasis.

Individuation is the process through which a person becomes his/her 'true self'. Hence it is the process whereby the innate elements of personality, the different experiences of a person's life and the different aspects and components of the immature psyche become integrated over time into a well-functioning whole. Individuation might thus be summarized as the self-formation of the personality into a coherent whole.

Nothing to do with Hating the parents as you are so fond of proselytizing.
What "trust" are you talking about? Are you confusing this word with another, Faith?
 
Etu Malku said:
Your inability to grasp your own concepts and self-grandeur is truly your stasis.

Individuation is the process through which a person becomes his/her 'true self'. Hence it is the process whereby the innate elements of personality, the different experiences of a person's life and the different aspects and components of the immature psyche become integrated over time into a well-functioning whole. Individuation might thus be summarized as the self-formation of the personality into a coherent whole.

Nothing to do with Hating the parents as you are so fond of proselytizing.
What "trust" are you talking about? Are you confusing this word with another, Faith?
Click to expand...

Why is the "true self" intrinsic to the events in a particular life?

It cannot be the true self if it differs at all to the self which you had when you were born. The separation is necessary, the experience of growth too, but eventually you must come back to this pure experience.

No, you have correctly stated what the life events result in, they result in a person. To understand the ramifications of this, I would suggest you look up 'persona', although you will argue that they mean something different. It is exactly the ego, you want to believe your experiences are meaningful, you cling to them, but none are intrinsic to your nature.

I absolutely make a distinction between the person and the individual, the person caters to society and is entangled in everything around him because he does not know who he is. The individual stands alone whether in the crowd or otherwise, this is true dignity and courage.
 
Also, for me, faith remains something of the head.

Trust is the same felt in the heart.
 
Lunitik said:
Why is the "true self" intrinsic to the events in a particular life?
Click to expand...
It shows us our way to our Higher Self

It cannot be the true self if it differs at all to the self which you had when you were born. The separation is necessary, the experience of growth too, but eventually you must come back to this pure experience.
Click to expand...
The self is this objective manifestation of we take on here, it can be akin to the Jungian Shadow.

No, you have correctly stated what the life events result in, they result in a person. To understand the ramifications of this, I would suggest you look up 'persona', although you will argue that they mean something different. It is exactly the ego, you want to believe your experiences are meaningful, you cling to them, but none are intrinsic to your nature.

I absolutely make a distinction between the person and the individual, the person caters to society and is entangled in everything around him because he does not know who he is. The individual stands alone whether in the crowd or otherwise, this is true dignity and courage.
Click to expand...
This is what you said to another member here in this thread, I assume it was not intended for me as well?
 
Lunitik said:
Also, for me, faith remains something of the head.

Trust is the same felt in the heart.
Click to expand...
Being Agnostic I have no use for faith or trust, but if it helps you feel better about your life decisions by all means embrace them.
 
A House divided against itself cannot stand. Eventually, the entire Human Family will be accurately perceived - therefore understood & categorized - as falling within or primarily within one astrological division. From the right perspective this is of course already the case, even in time & space.

While seemingly (and truly) analytical (vs. intuitive?) this same observation - if true - should serve as a reminder of what Unity is and stands for. Beyond Individualization is growth and progress within the worlds of the Monad's experience, yet what is our common Human destiny, what is our GOAL?

I think - once we get beyond individual differences [as these affect our given persona of the moment, or even of a series, or group] - what remains is this potential state of existence UNITED, rather than divided.

I do not say that we do not know what it is like, what it is worth, why it exists, or how it came to pass even in the first place - this UNITY, and the Potential to rise beyond our various human antagonisms (in the big, much bigger picture of the Purpose and Destiny of Humanity). I don't think we're "already there" in the sense we need to be, either; isn't that self-delusion? It seems to be the case that we are part-way through the Journey.

Not all religions address with much the same detail just how the Future will look for us, but most have a soteriology and also an eschatology that it is worth our time paying attention to, at some point. I am not suggesting that all should be folded into one, or the details ignored. I think that would be to our detriment at this point. But I do think we should be considering whether perhaps all religions do actually say similiar things, if interpreted carefully, allowing the different light [as pointed out in Thomas' post] in which such subjects may be seen, lifted or cast.

When it's all said and done, I think Thomas has summarized wonderfully - naturally from a Roman Catholic nuanced POV - essential characteristics which should resonate with most scholars of Western traditions, and probably also with many of us who are mystically inclined. What I wish people could or would do, is simply set aside cumbersome, confusing, or unfamiliar semantics and try to see what is really being said, or suggested.

We mustn't get confused or misled, or in some cases turned off by the phraseology. How absurd. I am not exactly a theist, certainly not your average Christian, yet to say "Light is the essence of all religions, the light of mind, the light of knowing, the light that lightens every soul, the light that shines unseen in the darkness of our comprehension." ... ~ this alone pretty well sums up Luciferianism, does it not Etu Malku?

Spoken, no less, by a staunch Roman Catholic. Hmmmm. ;)

Anyway, Bravo Thomas! Excellent summary; I quite agree.

~Namaskar
 
AndrewX said:
"Light is the essence of all religions, the light of mind, the light of knowing, the light that lightens every soul, the light that shines unseen in the darkness of our comprehension." ... ~ this alone pretty well sums up Luciferianism, does it not Etu Malku?

Spoken, no less, by a staunch Roman Catholic. Hmmmm. ;)

Anyway, Bravo Thomas! Excellent summary; I quite agree.

~Namaskar
Click to expand...
I like it Andrew! And can agree with you as well, "A House divided against itself cannot stand"
 
Etu Malku said:
Being Agnostic I have no use for faith or trust, but if it helps you feel better about your life decisions by all means embrace them.
Click to expand...

God is required for trust?

God is required for faith?

God is required for neither...

You plan for the future because you trust you will wake up tomorrow morning, you have faith that existence will continue supporting you, that your body will continue functioning.
 
Lunitik said:
You should look up the definition of persona, certainly it is not what you mean.
Click to expand...

Some qualities in a brahmana's nature are:
1. peacefulness, 4. purity, 7. honesty,
2. self-control, 5. satisfaction, 8. devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead,
3. austerity, 6. tolerance, 9. mercy, and 10. truthfulness.

Some of the qualities in a ksatriya's nature are:
1. power, 4. heroism, 7. perseverance,
2. strength, 5. tolerance, 8. gravity,
3. determination, 6. generosity, 9. service to brahmanas, 10. leadership.


Some of the qualities in a vaisya's nature are:
1. religiousness, 4. humbleness, and
2. charity, 5. eagerness to become wealthy.
3. faith,

Some of the qualities in a sudra's nature are:
1. service to the brahmanas, cows and demigods, and
2. being satisfied with whatever is one's situation in life.

Some of the qualities in an outcaste's nature are:
1. impurity, 4. atheism, 7. anger, and
2. untruthfulness, 5. senseless quarrelling, 8. desire for material sense gratification.
3. theft, 6. lust,
 
Advaita: Brother Digambara, please don't be angry. After so many days you have seen me again. I want to make you happy. If I say 'the maya potency of Lord Visnu', how have I become small-minded? Lord Visnu is the all-knowing Supreme Personality of Godhead. All that exists is His potency.

The word 'potency' does not mean a substance. Rather it means the quality that a substance possesses. Therefore the statement that a potency is the root of all existence goes counter to the truth. A potency cannot exist apart from its substance. An original substance with a spiritual form must first be accepted. After all, the commentary on Vedanta-sutra declares:

“The potency and the possessor of the potency are not different.”

The meaning, then, is that the potency does not exist apart from its substance. The only true substance is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of potencies. The nature of the potency is either to be a quality of the Supreme Lord, or submissive to His will.

When it is said that the potency has pure consciousness, that means that because the potency and the master of potencies are not different, therefore, like the master of potencies, the potency also has a form of spiritual consciousness, has desires that are at once fulfilled, and is beyond the touch of the three modes. It is not a mistake to say these things.

Will and consciousness are qualities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By itself, the potency does not possess will, but rather it carries out the will of the Supreme. For example, you have power, and by Your will, your potencies act. If you say, 'the power acted', then that means that the possessor of the power was actually behind the action. To say that 'the power acted' is only to use a figure of speech.

In truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead has only one potency. When she performs spiritual actions, she is called spiritual potency, and when she performs material actions, she is called the material potency, or maya. The Vedas (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8) explain:

“The potency of the Supreme is manifested in many different ways.”

The potency that manifests the three modes is the material potency. She creates and destroys the material universes. Those are her duties. In the Puranas and Tantras this potency is called by many names, such as Visnu-maya, Maha-maya, and Maya. Allegorically she is also called 'the mother of Brahma, Visnu and Siva”, 'the killer of Sumbha and Nisumbha', and other like names that describe her different activities.

As long as he remains deeply enmeshed in material consciousness, the soul is under her power. When he attains pure spiritual knowledge, the soul can understand the nature of his original spiritual form. Then he is freed from the ropes of Maya. Then he is under the power of the spiritual potency. Then he becomes happy.
 
Hearing this question from the mullah, the Vaisnava panditas smiled within their minds. Openly they said, “This saintly pandita babaji will give the answer to you.” Replying with, “As you order”, the pandita Goracanda said, “He whom you call Allah, we call Bhagavan.

Both these words refer to the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is called by different names in the Koran, the Puranas, and in different countries and languages. The name that best expresses all the qualities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead should be accepted. That is why we favour the name Bhagavan over Allah, Brahman, Paramatma and all other names.

The word Allah means 'He who has no superior'. We do not call superiority the best of the Lord's qualities. We say that wonderfulness is the best of His qualities. To be very big is certainly very wonderful. However, the opposite, to be very small, is also very wonderful.

Therefore the name Allah does not reach to the highest limit of the Lord's wonderful qualities. The word Bhagavan, however, refers to all wonderful qualities human beings can know. It puts them all in one word. The ultimate of greatness and the ultimate of smallness are only one feature of Bhagavan. That He is the master of all potencies is a second feature of Bhagavan.

Whatever a human being thinks is impossible, His inconceivable potency can easily accomplish. It is by the power of His inconceivable potency that He both has a form and does not have a form. If we say that He does not have a form, then we deny His inconceivable potency.

By His inconceivable potency He has a form and He enjoys pastimes with His devotees eternally. Allah, Brahman and Paramatma are formless, therefore They do not have these wonderful features. Bhagavan is allauspicious and all- famous. His pastimes are sweet like nectar. Bhagavan is sublimely handsome.

With spiritual eyes, the liberated souls gaze on His handsomeness. Bhagavan has all knowledge. He is pure and perfect. He is beyond the touch of matter. His form is spiritual. He is beyond the material elements, or 'byut'. Although He is the creator of the material world, Bhagavan is untouched by matter. He is independent. The word Bhagavan means “He who has six opulences'. Bhagavan has two features:
1. opulence and 2. sweetness.
 
“Krsna, the supreme hero, has the most beautiful transcendental body.
This body possesses all good features. It is radiant and very pleasing to the eyes.
His body is powerful, strong and youthful.

“Krsna is the linguist of all wonderful languages. He is a truthful and very
pleasing speaker. He is expert in speaking and He is very wise, learned, scholar
and a genius.”

“Krsna is very expert in artistic enjoyment. He is highly cunning, expert,
grateful and firmly determined in His vows. He knows how to deal according to
time, person and country, and He sees through the scriptures and authoritative
books. He is very clean and self-controlled.”

“Lord Krsna is steady, His senses are controlled, and He is forgiving,
grave, and calm. He is also equal to all. Moreover, He is magnanimous, religious,
chivalrous, and kind. He is always respectful to respectable people.”

“Krsna is very simple and liberal, He is humble and bashful and He is the
protector of the surrendered soul. He is very happy, and He is always the wellwisher
of His devotee. He is auspicious and He is submissive to love.”

“Krsna is very influential and famous, and He is the object of attachment
for everyone. He is the shelter of the good and the virtuous. He is attractive to the
minds of women, and He is worshipped by everyone. He is very, very rich.”

“Krsna is the Supreme, and He is always glorified as the Supreme Lord
and controller. Thus all the previously mentioned transcendental qualities are in
Him. The fifty qualities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead above mentioned
are as deep as the ocean. In other words, they are difficult to comprehend.”

“These qualities are sometimes very minutely exhibited in living beings,
but they are fully manifest in the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”

“Apart from these fifty qualities, there are five other qualities found in the
Supreme Personality of Godhead that are partially present in demigods like Siva.”

“These qualities are:
1. the Lord is always situated in His original position,
2. He is omniscient,
3. He is always fresh and youthful,
4. He is the concentrated form of eternity, knowledge and bliss, and
5. He is the possessor of all mystic perfection.

These are another five qualities, which exist in the Vaikuntha planets
in Narayana, the Lord of Laksmi. These qualities are present in Krsna, but are not
present in demigods like Lord Siva or in other living entities. These are:
1. inconceivable supreme power,
2. generating innumerable universes from the body,
3. being the original source of all incarnations,
4. bestowing salvation upon enemies killed and
5. the ability to attract exalted persons who are satisfied in themselves.

Although these qualities are present in Narayana, the dominating Deity of the
Vaikuntha planets, they are even more wonderfully present in Krsna.”

“Apart from these sixty transcendental qualities, Krsna has an additional
four qualities, which are not manifest even in the personality of Narayana. These
are:
1. Krsna is like an ocean filled with eaves of pastimes that evoke wonder
within everyone in the three worlds.
2. In His activities of conjugal love, He is always surrounded by His dear devotees who possess unequalled love for Him.
3. He attracts the minds of all three worlds by the melodious vibration of His flute.
4. His personal beauty and opulence are beyond compare.

No one is equal to Him, and no one is greater than Him. Thus the Supreme Personality of Godhead
astonishes all living entities, both moving and non moving, within the three worlds. He is so beautiful that He is called Krsna.”

“Above Narayana, Krsna has four specific transcendental qualities - His
wonderful pastimes, an abundance of wonderful associates who are very dear to
Him (like the gopis), His wonderful beauty and the wonderful vibration of His
flute. Lord Krsna is more exalted than ordinary living beings and demigods like
Lord Siva. He is even more exalted than His own personal expansion Narayana.”

These sixty-four opulences are fully, eternally and splendidly manifest in Lord Krsna, whose pure spiritual form is eternal and full of knowledge and bliss. The last four opulences are present only in the form of Lord Krsna.

They are not present in even the Lord's pastime incarnations.

Now that these four qualities are excluded, the remaining sixty qualities are fully and splendidly manifest in Lord Narayana, who is the master of the spiritual sky, and whose form is perfectly spiritual.


When the next five opulences are excluded, the remaining fifty-five opulences are present in Lord Siva and other exalted demigods. Drops of the remaining fifty opulences may be seen in the individual spirit souls. Siva, Brahma, Surya, Ganesa, and Indra are partial expansions of the Lord. Given jurisdiction to rule over certain affairs of the Lord's opulences.


Still, they are individual souls, servants of the Supreme Lord. By their mercy many people attained pure devotional service. They are rulers over the conditioned souls, and that is why they are objects of worship in the material world. The worship of them gradually leads to worship of the Supreme Lord.


If they give to certain souls the gift of pure devotional service to Lord Krsna, those souls consider them spiritual masters and worship them eternally. Lord Siva, who is filled with devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is considered non-different from the Supreme Lord Himself.


That is why people addicted to the ideas of impersonalism take shelter of Him and consider Him the highest form of the Supreme.
 
I can only laugh, you are giving criteria and attributes to absolute freedom...

The only genuine attribute is an overflowing of love.

This information is doing nothing but filling your head, you must bring your energies into the heart where your soul is located, but you are stuck in the mind completely.

It is almost depressing, honestly, because I know you think this display is impressive.

Spirituality is not a goal, it is the dropping of all goals, it is to encounter your intrinsic nature. Devotion does not help, I cite Papaji as a recent example. He was actually a Hare Krishna devotee I believe, but he saw visions of Krishna for years. He searched for people that could explain this to him, and eventually he encountered Ramana Maharashi, Maharashi simply pointed out these experiences are temporary and thus illusion and it hit Papaji hard. Dropping his nonsense, the simple self-inquiry of Maharshi enlightened Papaji, and Papaji became the most successful Guru in Maharshi's line in enlightening others until his death fairly recently.

You have still to come to this point where you realize the futility of this nonsense, when you become absolutely ready to drop everything to be devoted to self-realization and god-realization. Until this becomes a life and death endeavor for you, it will remain devoid of meaning. Just an entertaining past-time to look into...

Nothing is wrong in it, but realize everything you are "learning" is meaningless. Religion is not idea based, because ideas arise in the head. Religion is concerned with the heart, every religion at least teaches the opening of the heart chakra - most commonly referenced as satori, self-realization, or grace.
 
I would like to implore all reading this: you are alive, find out the essence, the very source of your life. Can the essence of religion be different? Do you need theories to go deeply into life itself? Do you need concepts and lists to check off that you are alive? Religion is about finding out "What is life?"
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top