What is the essence of all religions?

[Lunitik]

Hey! Speak for yourself! (It's not all about bliss, imo.)

Of course, ultimately you are the one observing the bliss, but who in life is not seeking some fulfillment, some happiness through whatever means seems to make sense to them when it is presented? We are all trying to grow as people, I point at the experience which shatters this: you are already the infinite expanse of existence itself, you have created your own limitations through deep rooted beliefs which have come in your very childhood, before even your first memory. Now you understand this desire to be more than you seem to be fully, this is the most beautiful moment life can possibly offer.

I tell you, bringing yourself utterly into the present moment, bliss is not an achievement here, it is simply a by-product of resonating with life itself, having life abundantly, soaking in so much that you are overflowing. We are taught greed is a sin, but this greed for life itself is not sin provided you go on sharing it, sharing is the only way to grow it. It is the very doorway to the divine, now every moment there is a crucifixion and resurrection in your being, always everything is utterly fresh and new, always the bliss is renewed.

I am not sure why you see it as something bad in this context, for it is exactly what is described in heaven, nirvana, moksha, but for some reason to call it directly what it is somehow is dirty for you? Simply look at life and see whether there is anything you do which is not at least intended to bring you happiness, there will be nothing. Perhaps you feel you are unworthy of it, or that it is impossible? I simply say your avoidance is more difficult... it takes energy to maintain the reality your beliefs have created.

Coming into the here-now simply means to stop this process, letting go of all beliefs the ego can no longer exist. Free from desires which arise through wanting to make something more of your own fallacy, realizing you only ever desired your own truth, ego can no longer persist, it will simply fade of its own accord. When it finally burns out entirely - and it could remain for a time after letting go of desires - this is enlightenment, awakening, bodhi... simply coming into deep accord with Tao.

I am not sure what you believe the purpose is if not this?

 

[Lunitik]

Many look on religion as a way to better themselves, it is really the way to rediscover yourself, for somewhere along the road you have forgotten.

Life can only be in the present, ego keeps you missing it though.

Desires and hopes move you into the future, reminiscing, guilt and regret all move you into the past.

All move you away from life.

Pulling along the past, you become as a robot because your responses become mechanic, it is what is expected of you. Creating goals in the future, you will simply wait for them to come, wasting time until it arrives.

Whenever there is distance between the ends and means, be aware it is the mind.

Being mindful of this, you balance finely in the center, in the now.

As a consequence, ego cannot project, for all your energy is directed into the present. Without fueling the ego, mind falls into a silence, this is to live in Zen.

Now you live as the pure being, the individual.

Undivided is the Buddha, undifferentiated, he fathoms no separation.

He simply partakes in the energy, the current of life, this is Tao.

 

[seattlegal]

Of course, ultimately you are the one observing the bliss, but who in life is not seeking some fulfillment, some happiness through whatever means seems to make sense to them when it is presented? We are all trying to grow as people, I point at the experience which shatters this: you are already the infinite expanse of existence itself, you have created your own limitations through deep rooted beliefs which have come in your very childhood, before even your first memory. Now you understand this desire to be more than you seem to be fully, this is the most beautiful moment life can possibly offer.

I tell you, bringing yourself utterly into the present moment, bliss is not an achievement here, it is simply a by-product of resonating with life itself, having life abundantly, soaking in so much that you are overflowing. We are taught greed is a sin, but this greed for life itself is not sin provided you go on sharing it, sharing is the only way to grow it. It is the very doorway to the divine, now every moment there is a crucifixion and resurrection in your being, always everything is utterly fresh and new, always the bliss is renewed.

I am not sure why you see it as something bad in this context, for it is exactly what is described in heaven, nirvana, moksha, but for some reason to call it directly what it is somehow is dirty for you? Simply look at life and see whether there is anything you do which is not at least intended to bring you happiness, there will be nothing. Perhaps you feel you are unworthy of it, or that it is impossible? I simply say your avoidance is more difficult... it takes energy to maintain the reality your beliefs have created.

Coming into the here-now simply means to stop this process, letting go of all beliefs the ego can no longer exist. Free from desires which arise through wanting to make something more of your own fallacy, realizing you only ever desired your own truth, ego can no longer persist, it will simply fade of its own accord. When it finally burns out entirely - and it could remain for a time after letting go of desires - this is enlightenment, awakening, bodhi... simply coming into deep accord with Tao.

I am not sure what you believe the purpose is if not this?

Bliss is only a small part of the process--bliss will lead to concentration, concentration will lead to knowledge and vision of things as they are, which will lead to disenchantment, which will lead to dispassion, which will lead to knowledge and vision of release.

 

[Lunitik]

Bliss is only a small part of the process--bliss will lead to concentration, concentration will lead to knowledge and vision of things as they are, which will lead to disenchantment, which will lead to dispassion, which will lead to knowledge and vision of release.

Bliss comes with each direct encounter of the divine, gradually getting more and more intense as you become more and more rooted in your being.

Bliss is the bodily effect of the resonance with existence.
Light is the eyes perception of that resonance.
Love is the same coming through the heart.
Aum is the frequency of this resonance through the ears.
Taste and smell are not usually related to the experience, yet still they are the effect of energy passing over other senses.

All is energy, what we perceive of reality is merely the minds attempt to make sense of it all, to create for us some sensible way to experience life through it. This is what Lao Tzu talks about with Tao, to move with the energies current, there is a great misunderstanding though, because ancient man has not really understood what energy is in its various forms, he has decided it is a God.

You will be familiar with Ch'i, but do you know it is the same as both Prana and Spirit? All three means the same, they can each be translated as breath, and oxygen is necessary in another uniquely human discovery. Food also provides in us much the same as wood or coal in this process. They are creating fire within us, and many religions make this correlation directly, that life itself is a type of fire.

Religious practices like yoga and meditation, even prayer are intended to burn that fire as hotly as possible, from this arrives a certain peak which is experienced in the various ways I have pointed to above. Religions have not kept up with the times though, they still use the terminology of long ago, so it is difficult to make this correlation without encountering it directly, yet I tell you all principles and morals are based on the same laws as an electric circuit, they are an attempt to keep the energy flowing as efficiently as possible, and to bring all into resonance with it ultimately. This resonance I call love, and it is absolutely blissful.

Yet, what is energy intrinsically? It is the same to ask what is God intrinsically.

Nothing is really solved, how has energy come about?

It provides a more modern way to understand though, something that makes sense to man today I think. Now it becomes absolutely clear that science and religion are discussing the same basic quality in existence through different avenues - just objectively and subjectively.

You might say energy cannot have intelligence, it cannot address humans, but what is happening in the brain when we think? It is just electrical impulses, just as emotion and even bodily touch is the same...

We must look deeper into how the currents we initiate effect those around us, happily science is going into this though. All will come to the same point because they must.

That point is the one Truth.

 

[Etu Malku]

bliss (n.)1. Extreme happiness; ecstasy.
2. The ecstasy of salvation; spiritual joy.

Bliss/Ecstasy are forms of trance induction.

The particular technique that an individual uses to induce ecstasy is usually one that is associated with that individual's particular religious and cultural traditions. As a result, an ecstatic experience is usually interpreted within the context of a particular individual's religious and cultural traditions. These interpretations often include statements about contact with supernatural or spiritual beings, about receiving new information as a revelation, also religion-related explanations of subsequent change of values, attitudes and behavior (e.g. in case of religious conversion).

·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Rapture or religious ecstasy: is an altered state of consciousness characterized by greatly reduced external awareness and expanded interior mental and spiritual awareness which is frequently accompanied by visions and emotional/intuitive (and sometimes physical) euphoria. Although the experience is usually brief in physical time, there are records of such experiences lasting several days or even more, and of recurring experiences of ecstasy during one's lifetime. Subjective perception of time, space and/or self may strongly change or disappear during ecstasy.


Don't allow yourself to be fooled by religious rapture, it is simply a form of trance induction and purely a design of the mind and body, existing solely in the material plane.

Being aware of what IS and what SEEMS to be is a great aspect of Luciferian Gnosis, silly human manufactured devices like bliss/rapture only delay true spiritual progress.

 

[Lunitik]

EM: Even if you write it off as such, even if we ignore the understanding which arises from it directly almost of its own accord, what is wrong with bliss?

People drink, people do drugs of all types to alter their mental state. This is merely to be in control of your own brains releasing of certain chemicals, the effect is far less dangerous because it is utterly natural - although you will want to seek guidance to ensure you are doing it correctly until you get the hang of it because obviously there are various dangers there.

I do not speak of the rapture though, this is just idiotic interpretations of words referencing a particular experience, that of seeming ascension, the directing of your inner energy towards the very tip of your skull. Avatar means descended, as you direct your energy upwards from the heart, there is a point where out of your control the energy begins to come back down. This is variously understood by different religions, what is certain is all religious founders seem to have this in common.

Your disputes are so often founded in ignorance, in settling for limitedness, you are not open to what is not already the case for you, you do not even seem willing to experiment with some of the concepts you write off so easily. I do not agree with many of the conclusions, I think many have grown out of misunderstanding - either deliberately by a particular founder, or just through ignorance in the followers.

I can assure you though, even most of the miracles listed in the various scriptures are absolutely plausible. Man is fundamentally subject to the same laws as are being discovered in quantum mechanics, for he is basically a vast array of quanta. This means, for instance, that teleportation is within his scope, weightlessness which has resulted in the ability to walk on water, manifesting through manipulation of energies to produce an object, reading of thoughts and emotions are simply the current of life moving through that body and can be observed, I have not experimented with dead people, but I see no reason why energy cannot be directed into the body just as our heart jump-start machines do in the medical field today. There is always an explanation, do not simply write things off because you only limit your own possibility.

 

[Lunitik]

We all seem to have this notion that the energy flowing through us is somehow fundamentally different to the energy flowing around us constantly. We seem to think that because air is subtle and the body is dense that they have nothing in common. It is all simply the expression of energy though, and it is awareness and consciousness which directs the currents about. We have not spontaneously created consciousness, it has come from somewhere, that we also have conscious awareness means it is possible for us to directly manipulate the currents around us - this means other people, events we encounter, or objects, anything.

This is why religions mostly emphasize the letting go of the ego, for it is founded on identification with the body, the mind, yet this creates certain beliefs in you, now we think things as basic as ESP are special abilities because we have blocked out our natural ability to pick up the currents around us, we only pay attention to that which arises within this limited perspective.

Man has so much more potential than he believes, it seems absolutely true: "our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, it is that we are powerful beyond belief", this is the nature of all following, including yours with regards to Luciferian thought. It seems we think there is something safe about being ignorant to the effects we have anyway on the world around us, every war reflects the collective attention and feeling of the entire world, pretending otherwise doesn't make it any less so.

 

[Lunitik]

The thing that bothers me most about you though, Etu, is you refuse to acknowledge that your own beliefs are just as blind and idiotic as for instance your take on God. Somehow, something in Luciferianism permits you to accept it despite being closed mostly to religion, there is intrigue but you are too stubborn to dive in and see what everything is really all about. You would rather dispute blindly than see whether the other is correct directly, and this is maddening.

The CIA, for instance, has a lab which it uses to experiment with the very things we are discussing, things like ESP are already accepted fact in scientific circles and the government is investing much in researching them. It seems your search is based in objective confirmation rather than subjective - although really there is no difference - yet still, if it stretches your views on the world it seems you are unwilling to accept it, now not even science can know better than you.

 

[seattlegal]

Bliss comes with each direct encounter of the divine, gradually getting more and more intense as you become more and more rooted in your being.

Actually, that is the makyo stage. (It gets your attention and rocks your world.) The enlightenment stage is when the "bliss" diminishes and "vanishes." Lack of signs is what Buddha called it.

Bliss is the bodily effect of the resonance with existence.
Light is the eyes perception of that resonance.
Love is the same coming through the heart.
Aum is the frequency of this resonance through the ears.
Taste and smell are not usually related to the experience, yet still they are the effect of energy passing over other senses.

You are still in the sensorary body at this point.

All is energy, what we perceive of reality is merely the minds attempt to make sense of it all, to create for us some sensible way to experience life through it. This is what Lao Tzu talks about with Tao, to move with the energies current, there is a great misunderstanding though, because ancient man has not really understood what energy is in its various forms, he has decided it is a God.

First line of the Tao Te Ching: The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Tao.

It would be good to keep this in mind

 

[Lunitik]

Actually, that is the makyo stage. (It gets your attention and rocks your world.) The enlightenment stage is when the "bliss" diminishes and "vanishes." Lack of signs is what Buddha called it.

If you are striving for such an empty existence, such a dry experience of life, so be it. What Buddha is discussing is the movement of the energies to the crown chakra, it is the state of the pure witness. It is not a fun state though, why will you keep your energy there when you can bring it down to the heart chakra is simply celebrate?

Yet, I have alluded to this by saying ultimately you are the witness of the bliss, as you are the witness of all events in life, uninvolved in any. Due to your lack of experience, you have not seen this though...

You are still in the sensorary body at this point.

Then you are discussing Samadhi, this I have also experienced but you cannot function in this state because it is not even a state. This is truly to go beyond mind, for even the concepts of time and space are no more there at all, this is literal nothingness, true Nirvana, although rarely how Nirvana is explained.

YET, when you come back out of this state, I assure you there is bliss, exorbitant amounts of energy are pouring out of you. You will either choose to die in Samadhi, or this will be your normal experience now. Returning is the usual description of Nirvana which the West knows, only on the final bodily death is there Paranirvana though, for returning things remain relative, now you simply are not.

First line of the Tao Te Ching: The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Tao.

It would be good to keep this in mind

Yet your whole emphasis is on walking your particular path, Tao is already here and now, which is what I have emphasized - simply let go into this moment. Again: "seeker, walk no path, for all paths lead there, truth is here" says exactly the same as Lao Tzu here.

 

[Etu Malku]

The thing that bothers me most about you though, Etu, is you refuse to acknowledge that your own beliefs are just as blind and idiotic as for instance your take on God. Somehow, something in Luciferianism permits you to accept it despite being closed mostly to religion, there is intrigue but you are too stubborn to dive in and see what everything is really all about. You would rather dispute blindly than see whether the other is correct directly, and this is maddening.

The CIA, for instance, has a lab which it uses to experiment with the very things we are discussing, things like ESP are already accepted fact in scientific circles and the government is investing much in researching them. It seems your search is based in objective confirmation rather than subjective - although really there is no difference - yet still, if it stretches your views on the world it seems you are unwilling to accept it, now not even science can know better than you.

I have worked extensively with the Monroe Institute which specializes in Trance Theory, I speak from experience and to this day utilize several trance inducing devices in my musiq and ritual.

 

[Lunitik]

I have worked extensively with the Monroe Institute which specializes in Trance Theory, I speak from experience and to this day utilize several trance inducing devices in my musiq and ritual.

You still write it off as a scientist though, have you experimented with the chakras at all? Bringing the energy into each chakra in the meditative state, it will flavor it a particular way. Most religions work from the heart chakra and try to elaborate on its experience, although it is the first real happening of "spirituality", and thus not very impressive. From here, usually a Master will guide you through exercises which grow the energy here, and gradually he will work it towards the crown, integrating the many subtle bodies of man, and thus encountering what you call the Higher Self - this means that each layer of your being is fully integrated, your gross, astral, etheric etc bodies all the way to what Buddha calls the Truth Body are all in line. You have apparently read about something related to this, but you have understood it in light of personality which is wrong.

Personally, I prefer more direct methods, which is why I often present Buddha and Maharshi devices, which are just Jnana practice - using the mind to climb beyond the mind. It seems like it would be most easy to utilize on a forum, certainly.

 

[Lunitik]

I am interested in instantaneous encountering, because it is impossible really to put time into it with people on the internet. All such devices deliver directly to samadhi if the person is willing to engage utterly, I do not see much use in particular practices because there is the risk that ego will become involved in them too.

 

[seattlegal]

If you are striving for such an empty existence, such a dry experience of life, so be it. What Buddha is discussing is the movement of the energies to the crown chakra, it is the state of the pure witness. It is not a fun state though, why will you keep your energy there when you can bring it down to the heart chakra is simply celebrate?

The beginning of makyo. Notice how this has been reported to be associated with such things as speaking in tongues, etc.?

Yet, I have alluded to this by saying ultimately you are the witness of the bliss, as you are the witness of all events in life, uninvolved in any. Due to your lack of experience, you have not seen this though...

Alright, O Great One, how have you become privy to what I have or have not experienced?

Then you are discussing Samadhi, this I have also experienced but you cannot function in this state because it is not even a state. This is truly to go beyond mind, for even the concepts of time and space are no more there at all, this is literal nothingness, true Nirvana, although rarely how Nirvana is explained.

Have you even thought about what makyo is? If you don't deal with your makyo by just skipping beyond it, are you really progressing?

YET, when you come back out of this state, I assure you there is bliss, exorbitant amounts of energy are pouring out of you.

Yes, you get another chance to deal with your hang-ups.

You will either choose to die in Samadhi, or this will be your normal experience now.

Can you really run away from yourself? How long can you actually hide from yourself and convince yourself that you are not hiding?

Returning is the usual description of Nirvana which the West knows, only on the final bodily death is there Paranirvana though, for returning things remain relative, now you simply are not.

Umm, not according to my understanding from the suttas. Your mileage may vary.

Yet your whole emphasis is on walking your particular path, Tao is already here and now, which is what I have emphasized - simply let go into this moment.

Actually you have been the one bringing up particular paths, and misrepresenting them. Then you can cast the blame upon those who call you out on the carpet for it.

Again: "seeker, walk no path, for all paths lead there, truth is here" says exactly the same as Lao Tzu here.

Actually, Lao Tzu says "That which is contrary to the Tao soon ends." (last line of Tao Te Ching 30)

 

[Etu Malku]

I cannot call it a trance though, for trance states bring us out of awareness, I have engaged in these as a youth for recreation. It is very different to the meditative state which is very much the opposite - VERY alert at its normal levels in me, although when I sit to meditate explicitly perhaps that can be called a trance.

Interesting how you remain ignorant when everyone brings to your attention actual facts and science.
You don't have to call it trance, the rest of the sane world will though. Many forms of trance induction allow the participant to remain alert if not extra alert in some types.

 

[seattlegal]

Interesting how you remain ignorant when everyone brings to your attention actual facts and science.
You don't have to call it trance, the rest of the sane world will though. Many forms of trance induction allow the participant to remain alert if not extra alert in some types.

Taoist flow and Zen mushin no shin are two examples.

 

[Lunitik]

The beginning of makyo. Notice how this has been reported to be associated with such things as speaking in tongues, etc.?

I wonder what you would call Buddhas teaching for 45 years if my words are makyo to you?

Alright, O Great One, how have you become privy to what I have or have not experienced?

Your statements are essentially from the head, you dispute things based on your knowledge of scripture despite my pointing at the experience more directly because the words I choose make you uncomfortable. There are many signs which show you have not experienced much just through our dialog, this very statement is such, for instance.

Have you even thought about what makyo is? If you don't deal with your makyo by just skipping beyond it, are you really progressing?

You have decided I am in makyo, I simply respond to what you say. I will describe experiences if they are relevant, but really they are a device to bring trust that yes I am aware of these things.

In this case, I have been discussing the first major spiritual experience the seeker will encounter, and you are saying it is irrelevant because Buddha - a fully enlightened sage - has experienced something higher. I have experienced many things higher than this too, but the opening of the heart chakra comes first. Gurdjieff would say this is to give birth to the soul, without a soul, what use can spiritual practice have?

Again, this sort of thing arises because you remain only knowledgeable, you show you have not experienced much because you cannot even see why someone is pointing at the first step.

Yes, you get another chance to deal with your hang-ups.

So you think that what Buddha teaches is about dying, despite his living 45 years after the encounter, and him making it a requirement of all enlightened ones to teach - commonly referred to as Bodhisatvas?

It occurs to me that "return from nirvana" for you could mean being reincarnated, this is not intended, what I meant is simply to leave the state of Nirvana, to enter a functional state again.

Can you really run away from yourself? How long can you actually hide from yourself and convince yourself that you are not hiding?

Since we are using the example of Buddha, he states ultimately anatta is realized - thus there is simply no need.

Umm, not according to my understanding from the suttas. Your mileage may vary.

Now you are using the technique of Buddha to dispute my words on Lao Tzu. Buddha tries to show you that your conceptions are false, he tries to justify why you are not the body or mind, he has created a path. Lao Tzu simply says to let go of your will, to stop fighting the current, that things happen of their own accord if you simply do nothing at all - literally nothing, for instance, he says to become as useless as a tree so no one disturbs you. They are different schools, although you study Zen so it might look a little blurred.

Actually you have been the one bringing up particular paths, and misrepresenting them. Then you can cast the blame upon those who call you out on the carpet for it.

I state devices, I have not advocated any path, in fact I have spoken against every path which is represented on this forum, there is not a single exception as far as I'm aware. I use the examples from various scriptures to support my words, but again this is create trust.

Actually, Lao Tzu says "That which is contrary to the Tao soon ends." (last line of Tao Te Ching 30)

My statements are in absolute rapport with the Tao, but the Tao Te Ching only contains the Tao which is spoken. Right off the bat Lao Tzu basically says reading his work is stupid because words can only point. I use different words to point, and your mind then goes on comparing to the knowledge you have acquired. Nothing is authentic to you which you speak.

My endeavor is to cause you to experience directly, you are comparing fingers instead of looking at the moon.

 

[Lunitik]

Interesting how you remain ignorant when everyone brings to your attention actual facts and science.
You don't have to call it trance, the rest of the sane world will though. Many forms of trance induction allow the participant to remain alert if not extra alert in some types.

There is no such thing as an objective fact, it is merely an agreed upon perception, nothing more.

Science means "what is known", if they knew everything the entire endeavor would just be finished.

I cannot call it trance because it is a state of mind, whereas meditation is a manipulation of energies.

I have to laugh when you say "the rest of the sane world" though, I do not see much sanity in the world at all. Most people seem to be suffering from at least mild schizophrenia in my experience, they seem to engage in arguments even with themselves.

 

[seattlegal]

I wonder what you would call Buddhas teaching for 45 years if my words are makyo to you?



Your statements are essentially from the head, you dispute things based on your knowledge of scripture despite my pointing at the experience more directly because the words I choose make you uncomfortable. There are many signs which show you have not experienced much just through our dialog, this very statement is such, for instance.

That is your conjecture. It is not the reality.

You have decided I am in makyo, I simply respond to what you say. I will describe experiences if they are relevant, but really they are a device to bring trust that yes I am aware of these things.

In this case, I have been discussing the first major spiritual experience the seeker will encounter, and you are saying it is irrelevant

Where did I say it was irrelevant? I actually said that it is something you have to deal with, if you care to check my posts. I also said that bliss is not what it is all about--that it is part of a larger process.

because Buddha - a fully enlightened sage - has experienced something higher. I have experienced many things higher than this too, but the opening of the heart chakra comes first. Gurdjieff would say this is to give birth to the soul, without a soul, what use can spiritual practice have?

Spirit=breath
Soul=a breather

Again, this sort of thing arises because you remain only knowledgeable, you show you have not experienced much because you cannot even see why someone is pointing at the first step.

LOL! Word play!

Dunno what this is related to

You might if you pay attention

Since we are using the example of Buddha, he states ultimately anatta is realized - thus there is simply no need.

Methinks you don't understand what anatta means.

Now you are using the technique of Buddha to dispute my words on Lao Tzu. Buddha tries to show you that your conceptions are false, he tries to justify why you are not the body or mind, he has created a path. Lao Tzu simply says to let go of your will, to stop fighting the current, that things happen of their own accord if you simply do nothing at all - literally nothing, for instance, he says to become as useless as a tree so no one disturbs you. They are different schools, although you study Zen so it might look a little blurred.

How closely have you looked into wei wu wei?

I state devices, I have not advocated any path, in fact I have spoken against every path which is represented on this forum, there is not a single exception as far as I'm aware. I use the examples from various scriptures to support my words, but again this is create trust.

LOL, creating trust by misrepresentation?

My statements are in absolute rapport with the Tao, but the Tao Te Ching only contains the Tao which is spoken. Right off the bat Lao Tzu basically says reading his work is stupid because words can only point.

[citation needed] (wikispeak)

I use different words to point, and your mind then goes on comparing to the knowledge you have acquired. Nothing is authentic to you which you speak.

Can you see why I'm saying that you might want to examine to see if you are experiencing makyo? Etu Malku mentioned how you remain ignorant in spite of evidence presented.

My endeavor is to cause you to experience directly, you are comparing fingers instead of looking at the moon.

Again, you are not privy to my experiences, or lack thereof. You are once again speaking from ignorance.

 

[Etu Malku]

There is no such thing as an objective fact, it is merely an agreed upon perception, nothing more.

Science means "what is known", if they knew everything the entire endeavor would just be finished.

I cannot call it trance because it is a state of mind, whereas meditation is a manipulation of energies.

I have to laugh when you say "the rest of the sane world" though, I do not see much sanity in the world at all. Most people seem to be suffering from at least mild schizophrenia in my experience, they seem to engage in arguments even with themselves.

All forms of meditation are a form of trance induction.