i found some very interseting points there...more than i knew about Muhammad (s.a.w) in the bible...so thanks Nusaybah and Aidyl Nurhadi...you have helped my iman!!im waiting for peopel to argue with what you have to say!
In New Testament times, we find that the Jews were still expecting the fulfilment of the prophecy of 'ONE LIKE MOSES', refer John 1:19-25. When Jesus claimed to be the Messiah of the Jews,the Jews began to enquire as to where was Elias? The Jews had a parallel prophecy that before the coming of the Messiah, Elias must come first in his second coming. Jesus confirms this Jewish belief:
".......ELIAS TRULY SHALL FIRST COME, AND RESTORE ALL THINGS. BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, THAT ELIAS IS COME ALREADY, AND THEY KNEW HIM NOT,...THEN THE DISCIPLES UNDERSTOOD THAT HE SPAKE UNTO THEM OF JOHN THE BAPTIST."(Matthew 17:11-13). According to the New Testament the Jews were not the ones to s wallow the words of any would-be Messiah. In their investigations they underwent intense difficulties in order to find their true Messiah. And this the Gospel of John confirms: "AND THIS IS THE RECORD OF JOHN,"(the Baptist) "WHEN THE JEWS SENT PRIESTS AND LEVITES FROM JERUSALEM TO ASK HIM, WHO ART THOU? AND HE CONFESSED AND DENIED NOT; BUT CONFESSED, I AM NOT THE CHRIST." (This was only natural because there can't be two Messiahs (14) at the same time. If Jesus was the Christ then John couldn't be the Christ!) "AND THEY ASKED HIM, WHAT THEN? ART THOU ELIAS? AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT." (Here Joh n the Baptist contradicts Jesus! Jesus says that John is "Elias" and John denies that he is what Jesus ascribes him to be. One of the TWO (Jesus or John), God forbid!, is difinitely not speaking the TRUTH! On the testimony of Jesus himself, John the Baptist was the greatest of the Israelite prophet s:"VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, AMOUNG THEM THAT ARE BORN OF WOMEN THERE HAS NOT RISENA GREATER THAN JOHN THE BAPTIST:... (Matthew 11:11).
We Muslims know John the Baptist as Hazrut YAHYAA Alai-his-salaam (peace be upon him). We revere him as a true prophet of Allah. The Holy Prophet Jesus known to us as Hazrut ISAA Alai-his-salaam (peace be upon him), is also esteemed as one of the mightiest messenger of the Almighty. How can we Musl ims impute lies to either of them? We leave this problem between Jesus and John for the Christians to solve, for their "sacred scriptures abound in discrepancies which they have been glossing over as the "dark sayings of Jesus"(15). We Muslims are really interested in the last questions posed to Jo hn the Baptist by the Jewish elite- "ART THOU THAT PROPHET? AND HE ANSWERED, NO."(John 1:21)
Three Questions!
Please note that three different and distinct questions were posed to John the Baptist and to which he gave three emphatic "NO'S" as answers. To recapitulate:-
1) ART THOU THE CHRIST?
2) ART THOU ELIAS?
3) ART THOU THAT PROPHET?
But the learned men of Christendom somehow only see two questions implied here. To make doubly clear that the Jews definitely had T-H-R-E-E separate prophecies in their minds when they were interogating John the Baptist, let us read the remonstrance of the Jews in the verses following:
"AND THEY ASKED HIM, AND SAID UNTO HIM, WHEY BAPTIZEST THOU THEN, IF THOU BE
a) NOT THAT CHRIST,
b) NOR ELIAS,
c) NEITHER THAT PROPHET?"
(John 1:25)
The Jews were waiting for the fulfilment of THREE distinct prophecies: One, the coming of CHRIST. Two the coming of ELIAS, and Three, the coming of THAT PROPHET.
"That Prophet"
If we look up any Bible which has a concordance or cross-references, the we will find in the marginal note where the words "the Prophet", or "that Prophet" occur in John 1:25, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18. And that 'that prophet' - 'the prophet like Moses' - "L IKE UNTO THEE", we have proved through overwhelming evidence that he was MUHUMMED and not Jesus!
We Muslims are not denying that Jesus was the "Messiah", which word is translated as "Christ".(16) We are not contesting the "thousand and one prophecies" which the Christians claim abound in the Old Testament foretelling the coming of the Messiah. What we say is that Deuteronomy 18:18 does NOT ref er to Jesus Christ but it is an explicit prophecy about the Holy Prophet MUHUMMED!"
The Acid Test
To the lambs of Christ I say, why not apply that acid test which the Master himself wanted you to apply to any would be claimant to prophethood? He had said: "BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM. DO MEN GATHER GRAPES FROM THE THORNS, OR FIGS FROM THE THISTLES? EVERY GOOD TREE WILL BEAR GOOD FRUIT AN D EVERY EVIL TREE WILL BEAR EVIL FRUIT....BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM. (Matthew 7:16-20).
Why are you afraid to apply this test to the teachings of Muhummed? You will find in the Last Testament of God - the Holy Qur'an - the true fulfilment of the teachings of Moses and Jesus which will bring to the world the much-needed peace and happiness. "IF A MAN LIKE MOHAMED WERE TO ASSUME THE DIC TATORSHIP OF THE MODERN WORLD, HE WOULD SUCCEED IN SOLVING ITS PROBLEMS THAT WOULD BRING IT THE MUCH NEEDED PEACE AND HAPPINESS."(George Bernard Shaw)
".......ELIAS TRULY SHALL FIRST COME, AND RESTORE ALL THINGS. BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, THAT ELIAS IS COME ALREADY, AND THEY KNEW HIM NOT,...THEN THE DISCIPLES UNDERSTOOD THAT HE SPAKE UNTO THEM OF JOHN THE BAPTIST."(Matthew 17:11-13). According to the New Testament the Jews were not the ones to s wallow the words of any would-be Messiah. In their investigations they underwent intense difficulties in order to find their true Messiah. And this the Gospel of John confirms: "AND THIS IS THE RECORD OF JOHN,"(the Baptist) "WHEN THE JEWS SENT PRIESTS AND LEVITES FROM JERUSALEM TO ASK HIM, WHO ART THOU? AND HE CONFESSED AND DENIED NOT; BUT CONFESSED, I AM NOT THE CHRIST." (This was only natural because there can't be two Messiahs (14) at the same time. If Jesus was the Christ then John couldn't be the Christ!) "AND THEY ASKED HIM, WHAT THEN? ART THOU ELIAS? AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT." (Here Joh n the Baptist contradicts Jesus! Jesus says that John is "Elias" and John denies that he is what Jesus ascribes him to be. One of the TWO (Jesus or John), God forbid!, is difinitely not speaking the TRUTH! On the testimony of Jesus himself, John the Baptist was the greatest of the Israelite prophet s:"VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, AMOUNG THEM THAT ARE BORN OF WOMEN THERE HAS NOT RISENA GREATER THAN JOHN THE BAPTIST:... (Matthew 11:11).
We Muslims know John the Baptist as Hazrut YAHYAA Alai-his-salaam (peace be upon him). We revere him as a true prophet of Allah. The Holy Prophet Jesus known to us as Hazrut ISAA Alai-his-salaam (peace be upon him), is also esteemed as one of the mightiest messenger of the Almighty. How can we Musl ims impute lies to either of them? We leave this problem between Jesus and John for the Christians to solve, for their "sacred scriptures abound in discrepancies which they have been glossing over as the "dark sayings of Jesus"(15). We Muslims are really interested in the last questions posed to Jo hn the Baptist by the Jewish elite- "ART THOU THAT PROPHET? AND HE ANSWERED, NO."(John 1:21)
Three Questions!
Please note that three different and distinct questions were posed to John the Baptist and to which he gave three emphatic "NO'S" as answers. To recapitulate:-
1) ART THOU THE CHRIST?
2) ART THOU ELIAS?
3) ART THOU THAT PROPHET?
But the learned men of Christendom somehow only see two questions implied here. To make doubly clear that the Jews definitely had T-H-R-E-E separate prophecies in their minds when they were interogating John the Baptist, let us read the remonstrance of the Jews in the verses following:
"AND THEY ASKED HIM, AND SAID UNTO HIM, WHEY BAPTIZEST THOU THEN, IF THOU BE
a) NOT THAT CHRIST,
b) NOR ELIAS,
c) NEITHER THAT PROPHET?"
(John 1:25)
The Jews were waiting for the fulfilment of THREE distinct prophecies: One, the coming of CHRIST. Two the coming of ELIAS, and Three, the coming of THAT PROPHET.
"That Prophet"
If we look up any Bible which has a concordance or cross-references, the we will find in the marginal note where the words "the Prophet", or "that Prophet" occur in John 1:25, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18. And that 'that prophet' - 'the prophet like Moses' - "L IKE UNTO THEE", we have proved through overwhelming evidence that he was MUHUMMED and not Jesus!
We Muslims are not denying that Jesus was the "Messiah", which word is translated as "Christ".(16) We are not contesting the "thousand and one prophecies" which the Christians claim abound in the Old Testament foretelling the coming of the Messiah. What we say is that Deuteronomy 18:18 does NOT ref er to Jesus Christ but it is an explicit prophecy about the Holy Prophet MUHUMMED!"
The Acid Test
To the lambs of Christ I say, why not apply that acid test which the Master himself wanted you to apply to any would be claimant to prophethood? He had said: "BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM. DO MEN GATHER GRAPES FROM THE THORNS, OR FIGS FROM THE THISTLES? EVERY GOOD TREE WILL BEAR GOOD FRUIT AN D EVERY EVIL TREE WILL BEAR EVIL FRUIT....BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM. (Matthew 7:16-20).
Why are you afraid to apply this test to the teachings of Muhummed? You will find in the Last Testament of God - the Holy Qur'an - the true fulfilment of the teachings of Moses and Jesus which will bring to the world the much-needed peace and happiness. "IF A MAN LIKE MOHAMED WERE TO ASSUME THE DIC TATORSHIP OF THE MODERN WORLD, HE WOULD SUCCEED IN SOLVING ITS PROBLEMS THAT WOULD BRING IT THE MUCH NEEDED PEACE AND HAPPINESS."(George Bernard Shaw)
First of all, I'm not here to belittle anyone's religion. Second of all this thread used to be in the Christian forum, so that is why you see my posts here.
Now since you are using the Christian Bible to explain Muhammad, let us explore this together.
You are saying the passage reads as: "His mouth is sweetness itself; he is Muhammad. He is my lover, this my friend, o daughters of Jerusalem"
You determine this to be the translation of the passage because of the word,
"machmad"
מַחֲמַדִּים
This of course is the root word for "Muhammad", correct? If this is in fact the case it raises more questions than it answers:
1. Did Muhammad ever claim Kingship?
2. Which of his many wives is talking?
3. Which dark woman from Lebonon did Muhammad marry and court?
4. Did he ever court any of his wives in Jerusalem?
5. Who are the "daughters" of Jerusalem?
Next, the word "machmad" occurs 12 times in the Bible. Let's look at those times:
1 Kings 20:6 "Yet I will send my servants to thee tomorrow about this time, and they shall search thy house, and the houses of they servants; and it shall be, whatever is "Muhammad" (machmad) in thy eyes, they shall take in their hand, and carry away."
כִּ֣י ׀ אִם־כָּעֵ֣ת מָחָ֗ר אֶשְׁלַ֤ח אֶת־עֲבָדַי֙ אֵלֶ֔יךָ וְחִפְּשׂוּ֙ אֶת־בֵּ֣יתְךָ֔ וְאֵ֖ת בָּתֵּ֣י עֲבָדֶ֑יךָ וְהָיָה֙ כָּל־מַחְמַ֣ד עֵינֶ֔יךָ יָשִׂ֥ימוּ בְיָדָ֖ם וְלָקָֽחוּ׃
The reality is the term "machmad" is used here as "pleasant".
Lamentations 1:11 "All her people sigh, they seek bread; they have given their "Muhammad" (machmad) things for food to relieve the soul: see, O Lord, and consider; for I am become vile."
כָּל־עַמָּ֤הּ נֶאֱנָחִים֙ מְבַקְּשִׁ֣ים לֶ֔חֶם נָתְנ֧וּ בְּאֹ֖כֶל לְהָשִׁ֣יב נָ֑פֶשׁ רְאֵ֤ה יְהוָה֙ וְֽהַבִּ֔יטָה כִּ֥י הָיִ֖יתִי זֹולֵלָֽה׃
Again the term "machmad" is used here as "pleasant" or "valuable".
Ezekiel 24:21 "Speak to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will profane my santuary, the excellence of your strength, the Muhammad (machmad) of your eyes, and that which your soul pitieth; and your sons and your daughters whom ye have left shall fall by the sword."
אֱמֹ֣ר ׀ לְבֵ֣ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֗ל כֹּֽה־אָמַר֮ אֲדֹנָ֣י יְהוִה֒ הִנְנִ֨י מְחַלֵּ֤ל אֶת־מִקְדָּשִׁי֙ גְּאֹ֣ון עֻזְּכֶ֔ם מַחְמַ֥ד עֵֽינֵיכֶ֖ם וּמַחְמַ֣ל נַפְשְׁכֶ֑ם וּבְנֵיכֶ֧ם וּבְנֹֽותֵיכֶ֛ם אֲשֶׁ֥ר עֲזַבְתֶּ֖ם בַּחֶ֥רֶב יִפֹּֽלוּ׃
Here the term "machmad" is used as "desire".
2 Chronicles 36:19, - "machmad" is used as "goodly"
Isaiah 64:11, - "machmad" is used as "pleasant"
Lamentations 1:10, - "machmad" is used as "pleasant"
Lamentations 2:4, - "machmad" is used as "pleasant"
Ezekiel 24:16, - "machmad" is used as as "desire"
Ezekiel 24:25, - "machmad" is used as "desire"
Hosea 9:6, - "machmad" is used as "pleasant"
Hosea 9:16 - "machmad" is used as "beloved"
Joel 3:5.- "machmad" is used as "goodly pleasant"
If all of these uses of "machmad" are used as adjectival clauses, why would one passage be converted into a proper noun using "machmad"? The term "machmad" has a proper noun counter part. It is "Chemdan". If the author wanted to use a proper noun instead of an adjective, he would have used Chemdan.
v/r
Q
Now since you are using the Christian Bible to explain Muhammad, let us explore this together.
Song of songs of Solomon is a poetic story of the love between the beloved and her lover. It expresses the beauty of the marriage relationship of the king and his wife.Actually there are quite a number of references to the advent of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. in the Bible quohom. The most glaring would be in the Songs of Solomon, Chapter 5, verse 16. Where it says "His mouth is sweetness itself; he is altogether lovely. This is my lover, this my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."
Hmm...you might be wondering....where is it that Muhammad s.a.w. is mentioned in that verse??? I tell you, you will never figure out in a million years unless you refer back to the Hebrew text.....note the emphasised phrase in the verse...the authors of the Bible has blatantly translated Muhammad's name into English, of course that's precisely one of the meanings of Muhammad. Anyway let's refer to the Hebrew text shall we?
Here it is:
And here's a transliteration of the verse,
"Hikow mamtaqiym wkulow muhamadiym zeh dowdiy wzeh ree`iy bnowt yruushaalaaim."
You are saying the passage reads as: "His mouth is sweetness itself; he is Muhammad. He is my lover, this my friend, o daughters of Jerusalem"
You determine this to be the translation of the passage because of the word,
"machmad"
מַחֲמַדִּים
This of course is the root word for "Muhammad", correct? If this is in fact the case it raises more questions than it answers:
1. Did Muhammad ever claim Kingship?
2. Which of his many wives is talking?
3. Which dark woman from Lebonon did Muhammad marry and court?
4. Did he ever court any of his wives in Jerusalem?
5. Who are the "daughters" of Jerusalem?
Next, the word "machmad" occurs 12 times in the Bible. Let's look at those times:
1 Kings 20:6 "Yet I will send my servants to thee tomorrow about this time, and they shall search thy house, and the houses of they servants; and it shall be, whatever is "Muhammad" (machmad) in thy eyes, they shall take in their hand, and carry away."
כִּ֣י ׀ אִם־כָּעֵ֣ת מָחָ֗ר אֶשְׁלַ֤ח אֶת־עֲבָדַי֙ אֵלֶ֔יךָ וְחִפְּשׂוּ֙ אֶת־בֵּ֣יתְךָ֔ וְאֵ֖ת בָּתֵּ֣י עֲבָדֶ֑יךָ וְהָיָה֙ כָּל־מַחְמַ֣ד עֵינֶ֔יךָ יָשִׂ֥ימוּ בְיָדָ֖ם וְלָקָֽחוּ׃
The reality is the term "machmad" is used here as "pleasant".
Lamentations 1:11 "All her people sigh, they seek bread; they have given their "Muhammad" (machmad) things for food to relieve the soul: see, O Lord, and consider; for I am become vile."
כָּל־עַמָּ֤הּ נֶאֱנָחִים֙ מְבַקְּשִׁ֣ים לֶ֔חֶם נָתְנ֧וּ בְּאֹ֖כֶל לְהָשִׁ֣יב נָ֑פֶשׁ רְאֵ֤ה יְהוָה֙ וְֽהַבִּ֔יטָה כִּ֥י הָיִ֖יתִי זֹולֵלָֽה׃
Again the term "machmad" is used here as "pleasant" or "valuable".
Ezekiel 24:21 "Speak to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will profane my santuary, the excellence of your strength, the Muhammad (machmad) of your eyes, and that which your soul pitieth; and your sons and your daughters whom ye have left shall fall by the sword."
אֱמֹ֣ר ׀ לְבֵ֣ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֗ל כֹּֽה־אָמַר֮ אֲדֹנָ֣י יְהוִה֒ הִנְנִ֨י מְחַלֵּ֤ל אֶת־מִקְדָּשִׁי֙ גְּאֹ֣ון עֻזְּכֶ֔ם מַחְמַ֥ד עֵֽינֵיכֶ֖ם וּמַחְמַ֣ל נַפְשְׁכֶ֑ם וּבְנֵיכֶ֧ם וּבְנֹֽותֵיכֶ֛ם אֲשֶׁ֥ר עֲזַבְתֶּ֖ם בַּחֶ֥רֶב יִפֹּֽלוּ׃
Here the term "machmad" is used as "desire".
2 Chronicles 36:19, - "machmad" is used as "goodly"
Isaiah 64:11, - "machmad" is used as "pleasant"
Lamentations 1:10, - "machmad" is used as "pleasant"
Lamentations 2:4, - "machmad" is used as "pleasant"
Ezekiel 24:16, - "machmad" is used as as "desire"
Ezekiel 24:25, - "machmad" is used as "desire"
Hosea 9:6, - "machmad" is used as "pleasant"
Hosea 9:16 - "machmad" is used as "beloved"
Joel 3:5.- "machmad" is used as "goodly pleasant"
If all of these uses of "machmad" are used as adjectival clauses, why would one passage be converted into a proper noun using "machmad"? The term "machmad" has a proper noun counter part. It is "Chemdan". If the author wanted to use a proper noun instead of an adjective, he would have used Chemdan.
v/r
Q
Since Deuteronomy has been cited by Muslims yet again...
Please read Deuteronomy 18:18
Quote:
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Muslims claim that this verse is talking about Muhammed, as they believe that the verse is addressed to the Israelites and the brethren of the Israelites must be the Ishmaelites.
Please read the whole chapter
Quote:
1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of Yahweh made by fire, and his inheritance.
2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: Yahweh is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
3 And this shall be the priest's due from the people, from them that offer a sacrifice, whether it be ox or sheep; and they shall give unto the priest the shoulder, and the two cheeks, and the maw
4 The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him.
5 For Yahweh thy Elohim hath chosen him out of all thy tribes, to stand to minister in the name of Yahweh, him and his sons for ever.
6 And if a Levite come from any of thy gates out of all Israel, where he sojourned, and come with all the desire of his mind unto the place which Yahweh shall choose;
7 Then he shall minister in the name of Yahweh his Elohim, as all his brethren the Levites do, which stand there before Yahweh.
8 They shall have like portions to eat, beside that which cometh of the sale of his patrimony.
9 When thou art come into the land which Yahweh thy Elohim giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto Yahweh: and because of these abominations Yahweh thy Elohim doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the Yahweh thy Elohim.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, Yahweh thy Elohim hath not suffered thee so to do.
15 Yahweh thy Elohim will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of Yahweh thy Elohim in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Yahweh my Elohim, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And Yahweh said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
Acts 3:23
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Yahweh hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of Yahweh, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Yahweh hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
It is obvious that the chapter is addressed to the Levites, who's brethren are the other 11 tribes of Israel.
And Muhammed certainly was not in the midst of the Israelites.
Let's also look at Moses' Geneaology....
Moses son of Amram son of Kohath son of Levi son of Israel (Jacob) son of Isaac son of Abraham son of Terah.......
Firstly Moses is the brother of Aaron
Secondly he is an Amramite who's brethren are the Izharites, Hebronites and Uzzielites.
Thirdly he is a Kohathite who's brethren are the Gershonites and Merarites.
Fourthly he is a Levite who's brethren are the Judahites, Simeonites, Reubenites, Benjaminites, Josephites, Issacharites, Zebulunites, Danites, Naphtalites, Gadites and Asherites.
Fifthly he is an Israelite who's brethren are the Edomites.
Sixthly he is an Isaacite who's brethren are the Ishmaelites, Zimranites, Jokshanites, Medanites, Midianites, Ishbakites and Shuahites.
If you look at chapter 18, you can clearly see that the Subjects are the Levites, and it was in this capacity that Moses was being spoken too and speaking as.
The brehtren of the Levites are the other 11 tribes of Israel.
It is incorrect to assume that the Israelites are being spoken to, and even if they were, the brehtren of the Israelites are the Edomites - not the Ishmaelites!
And if you want to hang on to the idea that the brethren of Moses are the Ishmaelites - you must prove that Muhammed is in fact and Ishmaelite using authentic sources only.
Thank you,
Aburaees
P.s. The prophecy in Deuteronomy could be applied to every Israelite prophet who came after Moses, a promise that Israel will continue to have prophets to harken to.
Please read Deuteronomy 18:18
Quote:
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Muslims claim that this verse is talking about Muhammed, as they believe that the verse is addressed to the Israelites and the brethren of the Israelites must be the Ishmaelites.
Please read the whole chapter
Quote:
1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of Yahweh made by fire, and his inheritance.
2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: Yahweh is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
3 And this shall be the priest's due from the people, from them that offer a sacrifice, whether it be ox or sheep; and they shall give unto the priest the shoulder, and the two cheeks, and the maw
4 The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him.
5 For Yahweh thy Elohim hath chosen him out of all thy tribes, to stand to minister in the name of Yahweh, him and his sons for ever.
6 And if a Levite come from any of thy gates out of all Israel, where he sojourned, and come with all the desire of his mind unto the place which Yahweh shall choose;
7 Then he shall minister in the name of Yahweh his Elohim, as all his brethren the Levites do, which stand there before Yahweh.
8 They shall have like portions to eat, beside that which cometh of the sale of his patrimony.
9 When thou art come into the land which Yahweh thy Elohim giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto Yahweh: and because of these abominations Yahweh thy Elohim doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the Yahweh thy Elohim.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, Yahweh thy Elohim hath not suffered thee so to do.
15 Yahweh thy Elohim will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of Yahweh thy Elohim in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Yahweh my Elohim, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And Yahweh said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
Acts 3:23
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Yahweh hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of Yahweh, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Yahweh hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
It is obvious that the chapter is addressed to the Levites, who's brethren are the other 11 tribes of Israel.
And Muhammed certainly was not in the midst of the Israelites.
Let's also look at Moses' Geneaology....
Moses son of Amram son of Kohath son of Levi son of Israel (Jacob) son of Isaac son of Abraham son of Terah.......
Firstly Moses is the brother of Aaron
Secondly he is an Amramite who's brethren are the Izharites, Hebronites and Uzzielites.
Thirdly he is a Kohathite who's brethren are the Gershonites and Merarites.
Fourthly he is a Levite who's brethren are the Judahites, Simeonites, Reubenites, Benjaminites, Josephites, Issacharites, Zebulunites, Danites, Naphtalites, Gadites and Asherites.
Fifthly he is an Israelite who's brethren are the Edomites.
Sixthly he is an Isaacite who's brethren are the Ishmaelites, Zimranites, Jokshanites, Medanites, Midianites, Ishbakites and Shuahites.
If you look at chapter 18, you can clearly see that the Subjects are the Levites, and it was in this capacity that Moses was being spoken too and speaking as.
The brehtren of the Levites are the other 11 tribes of Israel.
It is incorrect to assume that the Israelites are being spoken to, and even if they were, the brehtren of the Israelites are the Edomites - not the Ishmaelites!
And if you want to hang on to the idea that the brethren of Moses are the Ishmaelites - you must prove that Muhammed is in fact and Ishmaelite using authentic sources only.
Thank you,
Aburaees
P.s. The prophecy in Deuteronomy could be applied to every Israelite prophet who came after Moses, a promise that Israel will continue to have prophets to harken to.
inhumility
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Don't worry about that;that prophecy of Jesus is already fullfilled in Paul.Despite clear warning of Jesus, Christians got lured into Paul's imported religion of GrecoRoman mythology.Prince said:
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inhumility
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Abraham,Moses,Jacob,Isa etc are common names amongst Muslims.What Quran alludes is a Caliph of Muhammad who would be born in his umma,whose symbolic name has been mentioned as Isa though his proper name could be differen or even God may name such person as Issa or Ibne Maryan or Massih (Jesus s/o Mary or Messiah or Moshiach). Isa or Jesus s/o Mary is repoted dead by Quran , not on Cross, but at sometimes later in history,dying a natural death.There are some thirty verses in Quran which clearly prove that Jesus died a natural death.Semantic said:The return of Isa (pbuh) is only alluded to in the Qu'ran.
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where does the quran say jesus died a natural death please?Jesus is not dead but was raised to the heavens (unlike Moses...hence refer to the argument...i will raise unto the on from among their brethren...which is Muhammad)...Jesus will come again to fight the dajjal and he will live for a specidies time..i cnat exactly remember the number of years...he wil have children and get married and everyone will follow islam and realsie he is not a god but a mere mortal and human being...not a 'super human'
Zaakir said:
I have no idea. Jesus never married, nor had children, nor was mortal. He was human, and perhaps superhuman (since He rose from the dead). But the most important thing about Jesus is, He is God.
v/r
Q
Zaakir said:
This has been refuted, yet nobody has offered a response. Easier to ignore a solid refuatation than to address it in the first place.
I don't believe that we as Muslims should be clinging to Deut 18:18 because it just makes us look silly when Christians who know their Bible can come along and easily point out the discrepancies.
I believe there are some Muslims who doubt that Jesus and 'Isaa were actually the same person. There was a cult for an idol named al-'Isaa which dates to BEFORE Jesus was born, and this al-'Isaa was said to have been a man called 'Isaa before he was made into a god.
As for the mainstream however, Jesus is said to be returning just prior to Al-Mahdi when he will descend upon the white minnarett of Damascus. Most of this is addressed in the Hadiths. Amongst the things mentioned by other posters, he also destroys Gog and Magog with a supplication that brings flesh-eating worms down from the sky.
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Isa was born of a virgin...as jesus was...how common is this...they are therefore the same person...as for the deuteronomy argument vaklid points were amde by msulims here...but non by christians
therefore how can you say this...look over the past few pages..and see what nusaybah and adiyl say...compared to any christian..becasue the christian argument for me is unacceptable as an argument there is no thought process what so ever taht has not already been discussed by nusaybah and adiyl
therefore how can you say this...look over the past few pages..and see what nusaybah and adiyl say...compared to any christian..becasue the christian argument for me is unacceptable as an argument there is no thought process what so ever taht has not already been discussed by nusaybah and adiyl
Zaakir said:
Maybe you didn't read it...
Aburaees said:
The idea of being born to a virgin is more common than you realise, the question is which one of the many instances actually happened?
Zaakir, build your imaan on solid foundations and you'll win more people over to Islam.
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there is no christian who can take any exception to the way the character of jesus is described int he Quran...
aburaees my iman is on a high Alhamdulliah and thanks to you, you have helped as i know jesus and isa are one...how many virgins called mary do you know taht have given birth?
aburaees my iman is on a high Alhamdulliah and thanks to you, you have helped as i know jesus and isa are one...how many virgins called mary do you know taht have given birth?
Zaakir said:
I'm happy for you that your imaan is on a high
. I personally don't believe that 'Isaa and Jesus are different people, I was just introducing the idea - ever heard of Ruqayah Waris Maqsood? I believe she wrote about it in "The Mysteries of Jesus". She suggested that Mariam in Arabic, and Mary have different entymological roots.inhumility
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I was talking of Quran there not of Bible.Please refer my post.Quahom1 said:
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inhumility
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Quran categorically points out the fact that Jews and Christians are in doubt about the death of Jesus, which according to the Christian NT, as truly observed by you, is a unnatural death on Cross, however the inner evidence of gospels if deeply observed also confirms that Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross, which you would agree is not worthy of a perfect man or a great prophet of God, this further confirms Quran’s statement that Jews and Christians are making conjectures only and they don’t know the actual facts. I quote here the relevant verses:-Quahom1 said:
Chapter 4 Al-Nisa':
“[4:154] The people of the Book ask thee to bring down upon them a Book from heaven. They asked Moses a greater thing than this. They said, 'Show us Allah openly.' Thereupon a destructive punishment overtook them because of their transgression. Then they took the calf for worship after clear Signs had come to them, but We pardoned even that. And We gave Moses a manifest authority [4:155] And We raised high above them the Mount while making a covenant with them, and We said to them, 'Enter the gate submissively,' and We said to them, 'Transgress not in the matter of the Sabbath.' And We took from them a firm covenant. [4:156] So, for their breaking the covenant, and their denial of the Signs of Allah, and their seeking to slay the Prophets unjustly, and their saying: 'Our hearts are wrapped up in covers,' - nay, but Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not but little - [4:157] And for their disbelief and for their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny; [4:158] And for their saying, 'We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;' whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it. 4:159] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.”
The above verses are very clear that Jesus did not die on Cross. The intention of the Jews was to Kill Jesus a cursed death on Cross to prove that he was a false prophet as per OT, which was frustrated by God, and instead God saved him as Jesus had several times himself prophesized and God later caused Jesus a natural death and thus exalted Jesus. It is to be noted here that there is no mention of ascension of Jesus to skies , as there is no word which could be translated as "sky" here.
Now I quote some verses to make it more clear that Jesus did die a natural death, of course later at some point in the history.
Chapter 3 Ale-`Imran [3:55] And Jesus's enemies planned and Allah also planned, and Allah is the Best of Planners. [3:56] Remember the time when Allah said, 'O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will raise thee to Myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve, and will exalt those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.'
These versed are very clear about Jesus’ natural death, and there is not mention here of Jesus’ ascension to skies which is only a myth, there is no word here which could be translated as “sky” here.
Thanks
Quahom1 said:
interesting response I must say.....regarding your 5 questions....yes Muhammad was a king...he ruled Madinah by the consent of the masses. I cannot unfortunately answer the rest of the four questions. I will ponder on them and will insha'Allah get back to you on them as soon as possible. In the mean time, perhaps you could have a look at these two websites: http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Muhammad-and-Judaism/the-Jewish-Bible/Muhammad-in-Songs.htm
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible/beginnings.asp
I would also like to thank you for being silent to the responses I gave you regarding your faulty accusations about the Qur'an and such. I will take it as a tacit approval. Wassalam
Quahom1 said:
interesting response I must say.....regarding your 5 questions....yes Muhammad was a king...he ruled Madinah by the consent of the masses. I cannot unfortunately answer the rest of the four questions. I will ponder on them and will insha'Allah get back to you on them as soon as possible. In the mean time, perhaps you could have a look at these two websites: http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Muhammad-and-Judaism/the-Jewish-Bible/Muhammad-in-Songs.htm
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible/beginnings.asp
I would also like to thank you for being silent to the responses I gave you regarding your faulty accusations about the Qur'an and such. I will take it as a tacit approval. Wassalam
I sometimes wonder why some Muslims quote the "Song of Solomon" to show Muhammad in the Bible, since the "Song of Solomon" is often slated by the same Muslims for it's alleged pornographic content.
What does trying to force Muhammad into Deuteronomy 18 and Song of Solomon have to do with the title of this thread?
I guess most of us will never come to an agreement until Jesus returns, as per the title of the thread.
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What does trying to force Muhammad into Deuteronomy 18 and Song of Solomon have to do with the title of this thread?
I guess most of us will never come to an agreement until Jesus returns, as per the title of the thread.
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