Aidyl Nurhadi said:
Well, if you mean the way the comments claiming Muhammed is alleged to have been mentioned in Deuteronomy, then I'm personally waiting to see if one of our resident Jews can describe the proper context.
I said:Well, if you mean the way the comments claiming Muhammed is alleged to have been mentioned in Deuteronomy, then I'm personally waiting to see if one of our resident Jews can describe the proper context.
Hi Brian, I believe the proper context has already been described here;
http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/islam/did-youknow-muslims-also-believe-jesus-will-return-1544-3.html#post65514
I'm confident that our Jewish members will find this acceptable, but I have a feeling that it will be completely ignored by others. There won't be a rebuttal either because Deut 18 evidently speaks for itself on the matter.
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aburaees...you keep refering to this deuteronomy 18:18
18 I will raise them up a Prophet
prophet?not a son..not a god...?how does this lead us to beleiev jesus is being talked about?unless we beleive he is a prophet as we do in Islam
i very much urge you to raed past argument against this being a prophecy of jesus...please read them beacuse you clearly have not...and you keep pasting what you wrote ages ago...we can proove Muhammad (s.a.w) was infact of this geneology...another point i would like to make:
in judaism jesus is not accepted as the messiah...which means chosen one...not god...becasue he did not fulfil certain criteria..ie..he was not a leader of war...in islam we beleive when he returns he will lead us and the Muslim Ummah into victory against the dajjall...this is one of many criteria taht jesus follows in Islam compared to christianity...taht is revealed in the early scriptures
by the way here are few definitions for people:
christian: follower of Christ
jew: follower of judah
muslim: submitter to Allah (S.W.T)
18 I will raise them up a Prophet
prophet?not a son..not a god...?how does this lead us to beleiev jesus is being talked about?unless we beleive he is a prophet as we do in Islam
i very much urge you to raed past argument against this being a prophecy of jesus...please read them beacuse you clearly have not...and you keep pasting what you wrote ages ago...we can proove Muhammad (s.a.w) was infact of this geneology...another point i would like to make:
in judaism jesus is not accepted as the messiah...which means chosen one...not god...becasue he did not fulfil certain criteria..ie..he was not a leader of war...in islam we beleive when he returns he will lead us and the Muslim Ummah into victory against the dajjall...this is one of many criteria taht jesus follows in Islam compared to christianity...taht is revealed in the early scriptures
by the way here are few definitions for people:
christian: follower of Christ
jew: follower of judah
muslim: submitter to Allah (S.W.T)
Zaakir said:
Zaakir, I DON'T believe Jesus is God or the Son of God. But that doesn't change the fact that Muhammad doesn't fit into Deut 18 - you have yet to prove otherwise.
I wouldn't even try to put Jesus into Deut 18 either, it could be intended for someone else entirely.
The brethren of the Levites are ALL the other tribes of ISRAEL, the brethren of Israel are the EDOMITES.
I know all about Jesus, the Dajjal, etc... I am infact Muslim (a very objective one) if you haven't realised that already.
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I said:Well, if you mean the way the comments claiming Muhammed is alleged to have been mentioned in Deuteronomy, then I'm personally waiting to see if one of our resident Jews can describe the proper context.
No Mister Brian...I was refering to my responses to certain charges he made against Islam in his posts regarding the Prophet i.e. the Prophet s.a.w. did no miracles and the Qur'an was written 200 years after the time of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.
aburaees said:
You should rather wonder why many Muslims bother to quote and talk about the Bible at all "since the Bible is often slated by the same Muslims for it's unacceptable contents"(mockery of Prophets, brutality, cannibalism, pornography, shirk etc. etc.)....don't just limit the scope to the Songs of Solomon if you want to start questioning the approach of these Muslims...it is very unfortunate that you fail to grasp the whole idea of al-usul muqaranat al-adyan fi da'wah.....
Aidyl Nurhadi said:
Being honest about Deut 18 and other passages is not failing to grasp anything. There are other passages that can be used without calling a Muslim's integrity into question - but not Deut 18 and Song of Solomon as these have been addressed without rebuttal.
If the Bible or an individual scripture is to be quoted as an evidence FOR Islam, it should not be slated at all - else we nullify our purpose for quoting it in the first place.
As this thread is about Jesus' return according to Islam, I would like you to think about something...
Many of the OT prophecies that Christians have traditionally used for Jesus' first coming, have been taken by Muslims to show the coming of Muhammad. By doing this you not only make Muhammad a substitute for Jesus, but you also remove ALL the evidences (from a Christian and Muslim pov) from the OT that validate Jesus' prophethood.
Are there any prophecies left for Jesus in the OT, or are they all for Muhammad?? This is important if you expect Christians to take us seriously, we want Muhammad to be the shown as the 'faithful servant' and not the 'substitute Christ' - God forbid, as Christians will always be weary of 'substitute Christs'.
So shall we now concentrate on what Jesus/'Isaa will do when he returns, this I think the Christians would like to know...
There's a Hadith which mentions Jesus doing the following three things:
1. He'll break the cross i.e. dismantle 'Organised Christianity'.
2. He'll kill the pig; not sure exactly what this means but could be to do with eradicating the practice of consuming pork.
3. He'll abolish the Jizyah i.e. non-Muslims in Muslim lands will no longer be taxed for being non-Muslims.
These are among the things already mentioned by others like his confrontation with the false-messiah (al-Masih ad-Dajjal), and his anhialation of Gog and Magog.
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aburaees said:
......
The basic idea of usul muqaranat al-adyan is to analyse, compare and conclude. Regardless of the fact that the Songs of Solomon contain things which Muslims take exception to, that does not mean we should simply put the book aside and categorise it as all together nonsense. If we were to take your analogy into consideration i.e. Muslims contradicting themselves when they quote from a book to support their ideas but at the same time criticise the very same book vehemently for its undesirable contents....then as I said it would be ridiculous and absurd for any Muslim to talk about the Bible at all. This is because there will be AT LEAST 1 thing in every single one of the 66 books of the protestants and 73 of the Catholics that the avid Muslim would take exception to and criticise them as such. I stand by my statement that you have no idea what muqaranat al-adyan is all about and why Muslims even bother to approach a book which we unequivocally label as corrupted. Regarding Deut. 18....How in the world can you be so sure the prophesy speaks truly of Isa a.s.? Does it explicitly and vividly state that it's speaking about Jesus/Isa? If so please show me where it does...the thing is these sort of prophecies that the Christians boast about are usually very very vague and unexplicit. Most of them could fit almost any of the Prophets of the Jews, Christians and Muslims. And some would fit better with certain Prophets but one can never be absolutely sure given the vague descriptions. The prophecy that certain Muslims have used to say that it speaks of the coming of the one named Muhammad s.a.w. which you have more than once rejected, that is Deut. 18 says "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee(Moses)...."...Let's put the two candidates into the witness box..Jesus a.s. and Muhammad s.a.w. Now the verse says that I will raise a prophet LIKE unto thee....the Christians will definitely say 'Ah Ha! it's speaking about Jesus!' The Muslims may say,'hmm maybe it could fit Muhammad s.a.w.' Who's perception lies closer to the prophecy? The Christians'? you sure? It says like Moses....is Jesus really like Moses? The question should be..is Jesus even like any of the Prophets of God? At the very beginning of the story of Jesus he was born miraculously without any male intervention...how did Moses come into this earth? Through the consummation of his parents, correct? So how exactly does Jesus resemble Moses, when even at the very outset the difference between the two is like chalk and cheese? The Christians will come up with brilliant counters...but to me no matter what the Christian rebuttal may be this reason is enough to refute the whole notion that it's actually speaking about Jesus.
You said that many of the prophecies that the Christians use in favour of Jesus are taken up by Muslims to show the coming of Muhammad s.a.w. I don't think this is true...only a few out of the hundreds if not thousands that the Christians apply to Jesus are actually taken up by the Muslims. How is it that the Muslims are substituting Muhammad s.a.w. for Jesus a.s. by analysing and reinterpreting a small portion of the log, stock and barrel of prophecies attributed to jesus a.s. in the Bible??? We remove all of the evidences from the Christians as well as MUSLIMS point of view from the OT that VALIDATES Jesus' prophethood???? Which 'alim taught you that the Muslims came to recognise the prophethood of Jesus through any of the texts of other religions?????? We do not submit ourselves to the texts of the Christians aburaees....e.g. The Bible says Jesus called his mother WOMAN and none else.....we do not accept this...is that clear aburaess? And why I wonder do you say "Muhammad" just like that? which Muhammad are you talking about? Do you realise there is a hadith where the Prophet s.a.w. strongly encouraged people to take his name with respect? For instance by accompanying it with s.a.w. And aburaess...who taught you that Isa a.s. will be the one to destroy yajuj wa majuj? You said you're an objective Muslim...how does one become objective without even the most basic of knowledge?
P.S. Jesus is no prophet in the house of Christianity aburaess....not in the Islamic sense of the word rasul anyway....he's more of a GOD INCARNATE or BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD according to Christians...Just thought I'd point this out to you as you said that Christians use prophecies to VALIDATE Jesus' prophethood..what prophethood? lol
Aidyl Nurhadi said:
If you had taken the time to read my posts, you would have discovered that I HAVE NEVER claimed that Jesus/'Isaa was the prophet of Deut 18. So for me it's not about Muhammad Vs Jesus and putting one of the two into Deut 18, I wouldn't put EITHER of them in that chapter.
In fact, Elijah is the best candidate so far for Deut 18.
Aidyl Nurhadi, whenever I use the name of a prophet or messenger or even God, I give them their due respect with MY OWN TONGUE. And I expect that every Muslim who reads any of their names in any of my posts would do the same thing. Also, I don't expect any non-Muslim to have to read around abbreviations like "s.a.w." and "a.s." and "s.w.t.". No matter how well intentioned these abbreviations are, they're not very helpful as far as BREVITY is concerned.
As for 'Isaa, and Yajuj wa Majuj (gog and magog), 'Isaa will make a supplication and Allah will send down worm-like creatures to consume their flesh. So yes, I was mistaken in attributing it to 'Isaa without crediting Allah in my previous post - but I have mentioned the fact that 'Isaa made supplication to Allah in one of my other posts.
A final point if I may, there are plenty of Christians who believe 'Isaa to be BOTH a prophet AND an incarnation. Nevertheless, 'Isaa nor Muhammad fit Deut 18.
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Zaakir said:
In fact and indeed, every "Christian" can and does take exception to the way the character of Jesus is described in the Qu'ran. Your book calls Him a prophet...fair enough. Our book calls Him a prophet and the Savior of mankind. We call Him...God Almighty.
That isn't to say we discount Muhammad. Just that we know who the Redeemer is, and we accept Him in that role. You on the other hand, appear to take issue with that.
But let me ask a question: If the Qu'ran is purely God's word...why would you be concerned with the Christian Bible? Surely you have all the answers in your faith. You most assuredly do not need coabboration from such a "flawed holy book", as the Bible...Nothing more is required or needed...right?
my thoughts
v/r
Q
aburaees said:
as far as BREVITY is concerned...that's your consideration?....the non-Muslims?....I'm talking about you as a Muslim taking the Prophet's s.a.w. name....just accept the advice brother....stop arguing for the sake of argument....
regarding your final point....I suggest you read again what I said and try to understand it..
"P.S. Jesus is no prophet in the house of Christianity aburaess....not in the Islamic sense of the word rasul anyway....he's more of a GOD INCARNATE or BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD according to Christians...Just thought I'd point this out to you as you said that Christians use prophecies to VALIDATE Jesus' prophethood..what prophethood? lol"
Quahom1 said:But let me ask a question: If the Qu'ran is purely God's word...why would you be concerned with the Christian Bible? Surely you have all the answers in your faith. You most assuredly do not need coabboration from such a "flawed holy book", as the Bible...Nothing more is required or needed...right?
my thoughts
v/r
Q
Why would we be concerned with the Bible?...Heres a translation of a verse from the Qur'an which will insha'Allah answer your confusion,"The Christians and the Jews will tell you that you will never ever enter Jannah unless you become a Jew or a Christian, 'tilka amanee yuhum' this is no more than their wishful thinking, ask them for their 'burhan' proof(cerificate, evidence)". We are to ask you for your certificate which entitles you to Jannah and condemns us to hell fire...the burhan in this case would be the Bible and we are to deal with it as is instructed by the Qur'an or Kalamallah(words of Allah).
in Islam we do in some respects accept the bible and torah, as these are previous words of God which have undergone corruption, as Allah says in the Quran.we dont have to look in the bibl;e to prove ourselves right, but some original messages of God are there....also this website is about comparison if you hadnt noticed,maybe my answer doesnt make too much sense, but in the next couple of years inshaAllah i will know lots about my way of life and beleifs, so i will be bale to argue so much more...but i think i can argue a bit now, as it was looking in the bible that changed me mind as to why i follow christianity
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
i have asked before for people to please bear in mind that we consider it GREATLY INSULTING for people of other faiths to blithely state that MY SACRED TEXTS are corrupt. that may be your opinion, but it is *nothing*, repeat NOTHING more than your OPINION.
please read this thread:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/comparative-studies/jewish-beliefs-not-corrupted-5265.html
b'shalom
bananabrain
please read this thread:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/comparative-studies/jewish-beliefs-not-corrupted-5265.html
b'shalom
bananabrain
Aidyl Nurhadi said:
Why indeed? I'm not confused about anything. If Jannah is heaven then no the Qu'ran is incorrect, about what Christians would say, about heaven and entry into the same. What a Christian will tell you is that all will stand before the throne of God on the day of judgement, and the book of life will be opened. One's name is either in the book, or it is not. It is a 50/50 chance. However, the Christian will continue that he who accepts the salvation of Christ's sacrifice, will not have to deal with a 50/50 chance of getting into heaven. What the Christian will be judged on is merit. Pretty much his standing before the throne will be to determine the reward he'll receive in heaven.
It is not up to a Christian to "judge" anyone concerning heaven. That is between the individual and God. Any Christian who attempts to tell a non-Christian that they are damned to hell is being arrogant and foolish, and "Presumptuous", because no one can know the mind of God...
What a Christian can say, is because they accepted the Salvation of Christ, their name is "already in" the book of life. They have this assurance on the word of Jesus in the Bible, who was specific about it.
Hope that helps.
v/r
Q
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
sure - well, the deuteronomy verse definitely refers to a jewish prophet. it doesn't seen entirely unreasonable (at least if you're christian, rather than jewish) to take this as referring to jesus, who was jewish - although, as you know, i would tend to identify this as a jewish prophet, probably elijah, although some authorities identify the prophet concerned as the Messiah. as for the question of "machmad" - it would depend on whether the "h" letter in the word "muhammad" in arabic is the equivalent letter for "h", ("heh" in hebrew", "h" ("het" in hebrew) or "kh" ("khaf" in hebrew). my arabic is pretty pants but i dare say one of our muslim friends can tell us what the letters in the arabic word "MHMD" are. i know it's mim-something-mim-dal, but don't know what is the something - hāl, maybe.
zaakir - this definition is pure and utter nonsense and fabrication. not all jews are even descendants of judah - we're from judah, benjamin and levi. i suggest you check your sources.Zaakir said:
i've got news for you, a-n - the jews have NO SUCH BELIEF. our position and belief is that "the righteous of ALL THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD will have a portion in the World to Come" (tosefta commentary to sanhedrin 13:2 in the Talmud) there's my "burhan". so what does this mean? could the Qur'an be MISTAKEN? am i lying? are we fabricating our own beliefs? or is it possible that the christians and jews referred to in this sura are not ALL christians and jews, but a specific group of christians and jews who muhammad knew in arabia? in which case, could it not also be the case that when "the jews" are mentioned in the Qur'an, it is not referring to *all* jews?Aidyl Nurhadi said:
as i said before - "sez you". fine. in that case, G!D told *us* to beware of "false prophets" (read the rest of deuteronomy 18) and false prophecies made in G!D's Name which are not the will of G!D. but then again, i expect you think that verse is "corrupt".Zaakir said:
b'shalom
bananabrain
Aidyl Nurhadi said:
You're avoiding the issue brother. Jesus has NOTHING to do with my argument about Deut 18... Maybe you aren't able to refute my Deut 18 position...
It's simple. The simplest explanation is often the most correct explanation...
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i dont disagree with that statment, because there are fals prophets, as you will see, the bible says they wil not mention christ or beleive in him, whereas out prophet (s.a.w) did...also the bible mentions about how, for a prophet to be false, his prophecies will be unreliable, and hence not happen, i dont know much about Muhammad (s.a.w) because i have not long been muslim for long, but as far as i know he has not prophecised any false prophecies!
so therefore if we look at these bible statements to disprove the prophethood of Muhammad (s.a.w) we cannot do it, as he is a prophet of Allah
so therefore if we look at these bible statements to disprove the prophethood of Muhammad (s.a.w) we cannot do it, as he is a prophet of Allah