Greater Works (John 14:12)

[Gatekeeper]

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Jesus healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, raised the dead, etc. He said we will 'do' greater works than he did. I'm pretty sure he was speaking of those who represent his body. One body, one church, one spirit, one lord, etc.

I can't think of anything greater than realizing God's kingdom as a unified body (the body of Christ). For many, Jesus was WAY out of our league. To many, he was a major league player while we are still playing pee wee baseball.

I personally think he was a big league player who showed us what it would take to surpass his works. He set the bar for believers much like Babe Ruth set the bar in baseball. The sooner we strive to be as good or better than he was and realize that we are responsible for this world, the sooner we can put our hands to the plow and begin to seek the kingdom as one unified body.

When Jesus said we would do greater works than him, he surely meant we would do greater works than him and not to simply try to get others to believe what we do about Christianity. I'm certain Jesus had much bigger plans for his followers. We as believers do represent his body after all. As his body we are quite capable of doing miraculous things. I believe that if we would truly seek God's kingdom first (like he told us to) we would have tasted the greatness he was speaking of by now (together).

As is, there are many divisions among those who profess to be Christian. Over 2000 Christian denominations to date and growing. Maybe we need to get back to the basics?

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Basics 101:

To Love all people
To have faith in Christ - who's body we represent on earth
To have hope that humanity will one day live up to our God given potential and work for the kingdom as one unified body

Winning converts is one thing, but realizing our potential together would be nothing less than miraculous. Surely this is our greatest commission, as well as the greater works Jesus spoke of. I'm just saying and perhaps urging self proclaimed Christians to seek first the kingdom of God and work for it in our daily lives. I truly believe that the kingdom is within our reach.

I think it is required from us is to love all people, to remain faithful, as well as hopeful that we can represent Christ faithfully. In order to rise above the evils in the world, I think we need to hold on to that hope and have faith in who we are. When Jesus told us to follow him, I'm quite certain he desired us to live up to 'our' God given potential (as he did) as children of God.

Jesus' work was (in part) to declare God's kingdom and bring it in our sights. I think our work as Christ's body is to realize it on earth together. Jesus died for the kingdom, so why do so few seek it in today's world? Have we lost hope? Have we lost faith, or are we too darned religious for our own good? Maybe it's something else entirely? If so, what? What prevents us from realizing our potential?

 

[wil]

I heard we were upto 30-40,000 distinctive differences with our various divisions of followers.

And as you might be aware, you started with one of my favorite quotes and one which I've heard repeatedly...."I sure wish he wouldn't have said that."

 

[Gatekeeper]

I heard we were upto 30-40,000 distinctive differences with our various divisions of followers.

And as you might be aware, you started with one of my favorite quotes and one which I've heard repeatedly...."I sure wish he wouldn't have said that."

I'm actually thrilled that he said it, hehe! It gives me hope for myself, ya know? More so than myself, it gives me hope for us all, wil. I truly believe that we can, and one day will achieve great things on par with and even greater than what our greatest visionaries have accomplished. I think we will realize paradise on earth as one united body.

I'm not looking for what I can gain after I die. If there is better things after, then great! If not, I can die knowing I did what I could for my children, and my grandchildren, etc. My focus is on what we can achieve for our descendants. It helps to keep me motivated I think. It certainly can't hurt so long as this mindset isn't forced on others. I think it needs to be a fluid and gradual process in order to take a deepness of root.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Jesus died for the kingdom, so why do so few seek it in today's world? Have we lost hope? Have we lost faith, or are we too darned religious for our own good? Maybe it's something else entirely? If so, what? What prevents us from realizing our potential?

many Christian Churches do seek the Kingdom, but the Kingdom is a pretty vague term.

i was involved with charismatic churches that seek after signs wonders and miracles nearly all of them fake.

check out Bethel Church Bethel Church | Your kingdom come... on earth as in heaven

 

[Gatekeeper]

many Christian Churches do seek the Kingdom, but the Kingdom is a pretty vague term.

To me the kingdom is simply paradise on earth

i was involved with charismatic churches that seek after signs wonders and miracles nearly all of them fake.

Most are, but does this mean that we cannot do greater works as a people? There are many fakes in the Christian community. Even so, imagine if mankind combined our strengths as individuals in order to fulfill a common goal ... such as creating paradise on earth. Is this not at least possible? Casting out demons, faith healing, etc. seem too supernatural to me. Even so, the strides we are making in the medical community could one day be on par with what Jesus reportedly did. I don't know, but I think we are slowly progressing as a people and one day we could very well achieve things Jesus nor anyone else could achieve on their own.

check out Bethel Church Bethel Church | Your kingdom come... on earth as in heaven

I think JW believe in heaven on earth also. Even so, heaven (paradise) belongs to all mankind. I think there is room in paradise for people of all creeds, even those who don't believe in a supernatural God. Many in the religious community think it is a futile endeavor to attempt to better our world, many who believe heaven will be on earth believe this as well.

My questions are more about why so many show such a lack of faith in mankind's potential that most sit and wait for Jesus to reappear to fix the world for us? Jesus stated that our works would surpass his own, so I question why so many Christians have lost hope in who we are.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

To me the kingdom is simply paradise on earth

thats fair enough but in terms of scripture its hard to say what it really is

Most are, but does this mean that we cannot do greater works as a people? There are many fakes in the Christian community. Even so, imagine if mankind combined our strengths as individuals in order to fulfill a common goal ... such as creating paradise on earth. Is this not at least possible? Casting out demons, faith healing, etc. seem too supernatural to me. Even so, the strides we are making in the medical community could one day be on par with what Jesus reportedly did. I don't know, but I think we are slowly progressing as a people and one day we could very well achieve things Jesus nor anyone else could achieve on their own.

if we loved more and were less greedy things could be much better but even in paradise there would be pain, life is quite painful really even things are going well.

I think JW believe in heaven on earth also. Even so, heaven (paradise) belongs to all mankind. I think there is room in paradise for people of all creeds, even those who don't believe in a supernatural God. Many in the religious community think it is a futile endeavor to attempt to better our world, many who believe heaven will be on earth believe this as well.

JW belief in paradise on a new earth

My questions are more about why so many show such a lack of faith in mankind's potential that most sit and wait for Jesus to reappear to fix the world for us? Jesus stated that our works would surpass his own, so I question why so many Christians have lost hope in who we are.

dunno but i suppose christianity is for sunday for most or a social club.

 

[Thomas]

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I would suggest that we are in Him, and He in the Father, means we are in the Father ...

I'm pretty sure he was speaking of those who represent his body. One body, one church, one spirit, one lord, etc.

So am I.

I can't think of anything greater than realizing God's kingdom as a unified body (the body of Christ). For many, Jesus was WAY out of our league. To many, he was a major league player while we are still playing pee wee baseball.

He is the head, we the members ... But we are that body, we too easily lose sight of that. As St Augustine said: "See what you receive, receive what you are."

Maybe we need to get back to the basics?

What we call Ressourcement ('return to the source').

To Love all people

How is it, when I think of my denomination, that, given the commandment to love, we have found so many ways to condemn? I mean, we're famous for it!

Winning converts is one thing, but realizing our potential together would be nothing less than miraculous...

I know ... the message is so, so tough ... love thy neighbour (and I'm not being sarcastic).

What prevents us from realizing our potential?

Same as Adam ... We love ourselves more ...

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Gatekeeper]

thats fair enough but in terms of scripture its hard to say what it really is

That may be true, but why not make the most of this world, even if heaven is somewhere beyond?

if we loved more and were less greedy things could be much better but even in paradise there would be pain, life is quite painful really even things are going well.

Yup, but we could still enjoy and live our lives on earth w/o the wars, hunger, crime, and violence, no? To me it would still be paradise even with some physical pain. Imagine a day when aging and dying are just a peaceful and natural process accepted by all. No fear. No torment. No mental anguish.

The only pains to worry about in life would be flesh wounds and broken bones due to our carelessness and perhaps natural disasters. Then again, perhaps physical pain will one day be a thing of the past. At least long term pain.

Here's a thought: What if mankind is an irritant lodged between the atmosphere and the shell of our planet, and much like an oyster, our planet will one day develop us into the pearls we were destined to become? What if the universe will have its perfect work in us? It could very well be just a matter of time.

What if our potential will truly manifest the more we learn about the mysteries of life? What if it will be when we realize that the earth is our home and not some far away place existing after death? It could be that when we succumb to the earth being our permanent home, we will begin the process of transformation. I for one believe that we are destined for greatness and that we will one day know that greatness well.

dunno but i suppose christianity is for sunday for most or a social club.

Could be ... It probably beats the bar though, eh?

 

[Gatekeeper]

I would suggest that we are in Him, and He in the Father, means we are in the Father ...

I would agree

So am I.

He is the head, we the members ... But we are that body, we too easily lose sight of that. As St Augustine said: "See what you receive, receive what you are."

Nice! I'm liking St. Augustine more and more as the years go by.

What we call Ressourcement ('return to the source').

I think it is a necessity.

How is it, when I think of my denomination, that, given the commandment to love, we have found so many ways to condemn? I mean, we're famous for it!

Aren't we all to some extent?

I know ... the message is so, so tough ... love thy neighbour (and I'm not being sarcastic).

The message isn't tough as much as the application of the message.

Same as Adam ... We love ourselves more ...

God bless,

Thomas

Good answer. I know I do more than I'd like to admit. I remain hopeful, though.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

That may be true, but why not make the most of this world, even if heaven is somewhere beyond?

i agree and i think most people do try

Yup, but we could still enjoy and live our lives on earth w/o the wars, hunger, crime, and violence, no? To me it would still be paradise even with some physical pain. Imagine a day when aging and dying are just a peaceful and natural process accepted by all. No fear. No torment. No mental anguish.

The only pains to worry about in life would be flesh wounds and broken bones due to our carelessness and perhaps natural disasters. Then again, perhaps physical pain will one day be a thing of the past. At least long term pain.

i think pain is intrinsically part of life, life is beautiful and painful every moment is painful and this part of our condition I think.

Here's a thought: What if mankind is an irritant lodged between the atmosphere and the shell of our planet, and much like an oyster, our planet will one day develop us into the pearls we were destined to become? What if the universe will have its perfect work in us? It could very well be just a matter of time.

interesting theory, only yesterday I was thinking that we are more of an invasive species of monkey.

What if our potential will truly manifest the more we learn about the mysteries of life? What if it will be when we realize that the earth is our home and not some far away place existing after death? It could be that when we succumb to the earth being our permanent home, we will begin the process of transformation. I for one believe that we are destined for greatness and that we will one day know that greatness well.

maybe but currently we are ruled by greed

Could be ... It probably beats the bar though, eh?

i agree beats the bar.

 

[Thomas]

There is a Platonic view of Creation (informed by Genesis) that speaks of exitus and reditus — the movement out/away from God, and the journey in/back to God ... all this happens 'in' God, as long as we don't make the assumption that creation is thereby a mode of divine being.

The pattern of the journey out from God, the exitus, is detailed in the Hexaemeron, the Six Days of Genesis 1. (Interestingly, there are Brahminic texts which parallel the creation story of Genesis 1.) Man is the culmination of this process, the last act of creation (in this strict sense, in another, creation is a continuum process). Before him, everything made was seen to be 'good', but when man is man, creation is seen to be 'very good'.

The pattern of the journey out back to God, the reditus, is laid in Genesis 2. In short, man is the instrument of Divine recollection. That was why man was created, that was his vocation, that's why he is endowed with 'the capacity for God' (capax dei).

Creation in this sense is Trinitarian; The Father wills it; the Son is the exitus, the Logos of God, who brings it about; the Holy Spirit is the reditus, who perfects it, both in itself, and in its ontological perfection of its rest in God.

Mans' task, one could say, is to 'know' creation; man is the subjective experience of the cosmos as known object...

The whole created order (mineral, flora, fauna, angelic) participates in man, and only man in all the created order can participate in God as knowing subject.

So 'greater work' must always be seen in context, as a work cannot be greater than its cause — no matter what man does, all that he can do is determined according to God's will and God's creative act. The greater is the aspect of return, which speaks of completion, fulfilment, rest and beatitude.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[radarmark]

Oddly enough there are some (I am not claiming they are causal) parallels to both Kabbalah and Star of Redemption here. Creation always brings out the Jew in me.

Yes, it is Trinitarian, yet oddly enough, Kabbalic or existential as well.

 

[IowaGuy]

What prevents us from realizing our potential?

Gate - I like your "focus on the here & now" philosophy.

IMHO, waaayyyy too much emphasis is placed on the afterlife in Modern Christianity (just tune in to a radio or TV sermon sometime and count the times heaven, hell, eternity, etc are used). I was debating with a Christian friend the other day who kept telling me that Christianity is "easy" since all you need is faith in accepting that Jesus is lord and that he died for your sins. He said he didn't want all the hard work & sacrifice that is required with other faiths such as Islam, Judaism, etc. I just about fell out of my chair at his lazy attitude, but I think this view might be more widespread than one might think...

Do you think Christianity is an "easy" religion/way of life? Is it sometimes marketed that way? (i.e. it's easy to go to heaven, all you have to do is...)

IMO, until all the emphasis on the afterlife is overcome, modern Christianity will never live up to its present-moment potential. Have you read the recent TIME article Rethinking Heaven ?

Imagine a day when aging and dying are just a peaceful and natural process accepted by all. No fear. No torment. No mental anguish.

Starting to sound rather Buddhist

 

[Princely]

This is what you must do to know the truth and enter the kingdom of God.

"Speak the truth to one another, judge righteously, and let there be honesty and peace at your gates." says the Lord

"Whoever offers praise as a sacrifice glorifies me and to him who goes the right way I will show the salvation of God."

"Seek the Lord all you humble of the earth who have observed his law. Seek justice seek humility, perhaps you'll be sheltered on the day of the Lords anger."

"Sow justice for yourself and reap the fruits of piety."

Those are not my words but the words of the Lord who sent me. The Lord commanded me what to say and how to speak and since I know His commandment is eternal life what I say is spoken just as He instructed me.

I am the light of the world, no one who follows me shall ever walk in darkness because he will possess the light of life.

If you continue in my teaching you are truly my disciple, then you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free.

 

[Amergin]

Gatekeeper, that was a fine post you wrote to start this thread. I would say that Christianity has split into too many sects or cults. I like what Jesus said.

The words of Jesus are wise and good. How come the Roman Catholic Church and the many Protestant Evangelical Cults teach the opposite of what Jesus taught. How can right wing fundamentalists claim to be Christian when they violently oppose everything that Jesus taught. Evangelicals and the Pope seem more like an anti-Christ cabal.

Amergin

 

[Gatekeeper]

Gatekeeper, that was a fine post you wrote to start this thread. I would say that Christianity has split into too many sects or cults. I like what Jesus said.

The words of Jesus are wise and good. How come the Roman Catholic Church and the many Protestant Evangelical Cults teach the opposite of what Jesus taught. How can right wing fundamentalists claim to be Christian when they violently oppose everything that Jesus taught. Evangelicals and the Pope seem more like an anti-Christ cabal.

Amergin

Isn't this what stands in opposition to Jesus' vision? It is the spirit of the antichrist. It is the spirit of doubt and opposition that humanity can realize the kingdom Jesus died for. Did Jesus die in vain? Was what he endured on the cross for naught? I think any Christian worth their salt would take Jesus' life, his message of the kingdom, and apply the principles and wisdom he taught us to create a better world in the here and now.

Far too many believe that we are hopeless and unable to fulfill what I believe we are called to fulfill together as a united people. Paradise is within our reach, but many make excuses such as we can do nothing worthy, that our nature prevents us, etc. so these excuse makers simply wait for Jesus to return so he can fix our world for us. It's tragic. My question is what makes them think that if they are unwilling to try, hopelessly bound by their nature, lacking faith in our God given potential to become as great as Jesus said we would be, that they will ever receive the promise themselves. Where is their faith? Where is their hope? Aren't faith and hope cornerstones when it comes the the Christian religion?

No! Jesus did not die in vain as there are many who do seek a better world in this life. It's a pity that the majority of those who proclaim Jesus' name aren't among them, however. What dreams may come if we would only follow Jesus and pursue the heavenly community he declared in this life. :sigh: Indeed, the spirit of the antichrist is alive and well and present our mainstream churches I'm afraid. Doubt that we can achieve, hopeless when it comes to mankind rising to the occasion to better our world, faithless in our God given potential they be. Jesus is not their head (mind) nor are these types his body (workmen).

We have work to do. We are called to have the mind of Christ. We are called to labor together to create a better world. When Jesus becomes our head (mind) we become his workmen (body). Otherwise we miss the fundamentals of his message. "Seek first the kingdom of God" Loving our neighbors as ourselves is a means to that end.