Going through hell before we get to heaven

[Gatekeeper]

I'm simply suggesting that we learn from life experience and that it is a good thing. There is little doubt that we live in a world full of suffering and torment which I think is the hell alluded to in scripture. Life here is more like an opportunity to learn, grow, develop, and advance as a people. Humankind is responsible for the evils in life, and I think it wise to avoid them when possible. Some people, however, will attempt to exert their will on our own. Sometimes this cannot be avoided. In any case, this life is a life of opportunity, whether one calls it hell or simply life. My point is that hell isn't a thing to be feared per se, but rather a place to receive a higher education in life matters. It prepares us for the kingdom of heaven, whether heaven is an attitude or a literal place without suffering. In the end, we are stuck here until we learn how to live effectively.

 

[luecy7]

Humankind is responsible for the evils in life, and I think it wise to avoid them when possible.

Are you saying you think it wise to avoid doing sin, or to avoid those who do sin?

It prepares us for the kingdom of heaven...

You definitely sound athiest to me as you describe what 'it' is that teaches you, or prepares you for a 'kingdom of heaven'. Per the teaching of Jesus, perhaps the stones can teach some lessons indirectly:

Matthew 3:9 ... and do not think to say in yourselves, A father we have -- Abraham, for I say to you, that God is able out of these stones to raise children to Abraham ...

Luke 19:40 ... and he answering said to them, 'I say to you, that, if these shall be silent, the stones will cry out!'

However: to be honest, a son of gehenna (hell) is what I am hearing from you:

Matthew 23:15 Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen -- you make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.

This one also comes to mind:

Luke 4:3-4 and the Devil said to him, 'If Son thou art of God, speak to this stone that it may become bread.' And Jesus answered him, saying, 'It hath been written, that, not on bread only shall man live, but on every saying of God.'

'On the saying of God'! An atheist might not like to hear that. Whereas, this place that you call hell, the earth, teaches you your heaven bound lessons? Which so called Christian denomination is it that believes that?

 

[Gatekeeper]

Are you saying you think it wise to avoid doing sin, or to avoid those who do sin?

I think it wise to allow ourselves to live and learn from the mistakes we will inevitably make. I likewise think it wise to distance ourselves from those who act with malicious intent.

You definitely sound athiest to me as you describe what 'it' is that teaches you, or prepares you for a 'kingdom of heaven'. Per the teaching of Jesus, perhaps the stones can teach some lessons indirectly:

I'm a panentheist, so God is life.

Matthew 3:9 ... and do not think to say in yourselves, A father we have -- Abraham, for I say to you, that God is able out of these stones to raise children to Abraham ...

Luke 19:40 ... and he answering said to them, 'I say to you, that, if these shall be silent, the stones will cry out!'

Life (God) influences everything!

However: to be honest, a son of gehenna (hell) is what I am hearing from you:

Matthew 23:15 Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen -- you make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.

We must live on the earth. We have no choice but to live and die here. I think it wise to take what we have and learn from the experience.

This one also comes to mind:

Luke 4:3-4 and the Devil said to him, 'If Son thou art of God, speak to this stone that it may become bread.' And Jesus answered him, saying, 'It hath been written, that, not on bread only shall man live, but on every saying of God.'

Your point is what exactly?

'On the saying of God'! An atheist might not like to hear that. Whereas, this place that you call hell, the earth, teaches you your heaven bound lessons? Which so called Christian denomination is it that believes that?

The one I myself adhere to of course. But you want specifics don't you? There is no formal denomination, only those who see the world as it is in contrast to the world Jesus declared to us.

 

[radarmark]

Gatekeeper, some of us (see Hartshorne or Fox or Cobb) think that the world Jesus declared is the real world. No, not that we believe like born-agains. We would rather say the world proves G!d exists, Chr!st lives, and the Holy Sp!rit dwells within everyone and everything.

Pantheism with a distinctly Christian view.

 

[wil]

I don't see the earthly plane as hell....

I see that it can be to some people...and that it can be at some times....

Jesus says...get the behind me satan...(others say that to me)

This to me means that he is trying to remove the negative thoughts from his psyche, remove the attempt to control his mind by his perceptions.

One kid can sit in class loving it, enthralled with the teacher, and the topic (heaven)....another hates it (hell)....what is the difference other than perception? The same occurs in employment/life for us adults.

Oft times a drunk or addict has to hit rock bottom before s/he seeks recovery. Or we look back on what we once saw as failures, or major life setbacks as just the lesson we needed to get us to where we needed to grow from....

So yes, in my mind many have to go thru hell to find their heaven....the key is to not wallow there. And when a friend or family member goes into the darkness, our job is not to empathize and go with them....but to stand in the light and reach in a hand...

 

[luecy7]

I think it wise to allow ourselves to live and learn from the mistakes we will inevitably make. I likewise think it wise to distance ourselves from those who act with malicious intent.

I think it wise to allow sinners to live and learn from the mistakes they will inevitably make, which requires having and maintaining relationships with sinners. Example: Jesus did not come to flock with people who were like him. Jesus did not exactly distance himself from those who acted with malicious intent.

I'm a panentheist, so God is life.

Very well: When God tells me you are a Christian, I shall believe it.

I think it wise to take what we have and learn from the experience.

I think it wise to give what we have, and learn from the experience.

Your point is what exactly?

By the scripture, I see that Jesus says you can do the will of God, and you can do the will of Man, and you can do the will of Hell (Gehenna). You can be a son of God, a son of Man, and a son of Hell. That is a choice. You attribute Hell to a place, and gehenna is a place. As I have read you though: you essentially say that a son of Hell is the path to Heaven. I am challenging that notion.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Most of the world's religions describe hell as a fiery inferno below us and heaven as an ethereal floating-place above us. The fact that so many of these religions talk about these places means there must be something to these stories.

 

[radarmark]

Not necessarily. At one time it was held by all people that the earth was flat. Sorry, we know that was wrong!

 

[Gatekeeper]

Gatekeeper, some of us (see Hartshorne or Fox or Cobb) think that the world Jesus declared is the real world. No, not that we believe like born-agains. We would rather say the world proves G!d exists, Chr!st lives, and the Holy Sp!rit dwells within everyone and everything.

Pantheism with a distinctly Christian view.

I agree. Only we make this world what it is together. I am a panentheistic Christian who believes the world, even as horrible as it is for some, serves a greater purpose for the whole of humanity.

 

[Gatekeeper]

I don't see the earthly plane as hell....

I see that it can be to some people...and that it can be at some times....

Jesus says...get the behind me satan...(others say that to me)

This to me means that he is trying to remove the negative thoughts from his psyche, remove the attempt to control his mind by his perceptions.

One kid can sit in class loving it, enthralled with the teacher, and the topic (heaven)....another hates it (hell)....what is the difference other than perception? The same occurs in employment/life for us adults.

Oft times a drunk or addict has to hit rock bottom before s/he seeks recovery. Or we look back on what we once saw as failures, or major life setbacks as just the lesson we needed to get us to where we needed to grow from....

So yes, in my mind many have to go thru hell to find their heaven....the key is to not wallow there. And when a friend or family member goes into the darkness, our job is not to empathize and go with them....but to stand in the light and reach in a hand...

I agree again, only I think this world could be the heaven Jesus likewise declared to be at hand. The choice is ours to make it all it can be, and to learn from our mistakes when we fall short.

 

[Gatekeeper]

I think it wise to allow sinners to live and learn from the mistakes they will inevitably make, which requires having and maintaining relationships with sinners. Example: Jesus did not come to flock with people who were like him. Jesus did not exactly distance himself from those who acted with malicious intent.

Very well: When God tells me you are a Christian, I shall believe it.

I think it wise to give what we have, and learn from the experience.

By the scripture, I see that Jesus says you can do the will of God, and you can do the will of Man, and you can do the will of Hell (Gehenna). You can be a son of God, a son of Man, and a son of Hell. That is a choice. You attribute Hell to a place, and gehenna is a place. As I have read you though: you essentially say that a son of Hell is the path to Heaven. I am challenging that notion.

We are all sons of men, which equates to being born on this earth (hell). We can likewise be sons of God by following Christ and learning to live according to God's will for us. This is the entire purpose of living here .... that we might learn how to live effectively. Life and love are the only true guides we have. Hell has far too many negative connotations attached, when the reality is that hell simply allows us an opportunity to grow, learn, and further develop. That's why we are given life here .... to gain knowledge, understanding, and wisdom. This fallen world prepares us for the same world Jesus declared to us.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Most of the world's religions describe hell as a fiery inferno below us and heaven as an ethereal floating-place above us. The fact that so many of these religions talk about these places means there must be something to these stories.

One exists on earth, whereas the other is a hopeful goal to reach as a people.

 

[luecy7]

We are all sons of men, which equates to being born on this earth (hell). We can likewise be sons of God by following Christ and learning to live according to God's will for us. This is the entire purpose of living here .... that we might learn how to live effectively. Life and love are the only true guides we have. Hell has far too many negative connotations attached, when the reality is that hell simply allows us an opportunity to grow, learn, and further develop. That's why we are given life here .... to gain knowledge, understanding, and wisdom. This fallen world prepares us for the same world Jesus declared to us.

As you say 'we', I think you vainely attempt to ascribe yourself upon others, and you seem to similarly call yourself a Christian.

So lets review the definition of 'Son' as used by Jesus in the gospel. With John 8:39-47, there are three examples to draw from: son of God, son of Abraham, and son of a Liar. Jesus answered those who said they were children of a man, and those who said they had no father, of those who wanted to kill him:

John 8:39-47 They answered and said to him, 'Our father is Abraham;' Jesus saith to them, 'If children of Abraham you were, the works of Abraham you were doing; and now, you seek to kill me -- a man who has spoken to you the truth that I heard from God; this Abraham did not; you do the works of your father.' They said, therefore, to him, 'We of whoredom have not been born; one Father we have -- God;' Jesus then said to them, 'If God were your father, you were loving me, for I came forth from God, and am come; for neither have I come of myself, but He sent me; wherefore do you not know my speech? Because you are not able to hear my word. 'You are of a father -- the devil, and the desires of your father you will do; he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he has not stood, because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar -- also his father.' And because I say the truth, you do not believe me. Who of you doth convict me of sin? And if I speak truth, wherefore do you not believe me? He who is of God, the sayings of God he doth hear; because of this you do not hear, because of God you are not.'

A couple of other verses that I draw understanding from, in terms of the relationship:
Matthew 12:50 For whoever may do the will of my Father who is in the heavens, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matthew 5:9-10 Happy the peacemakers -- because they shall be called Sons of God. Happy those persecuted for righteousness' sake -- because theirs is the reign of the heavens.

 

[Gatekeeper]

If you were born of an earthly father than yes ... "we" includes you. I again fail to see your point. Either this earth is a place of learning or it's not. The only contention would seem to be whether or not the earth is likewise the hell (a place of torment) spoken of by Jesus.

Why not instead of prescribing your presumptions to my own, ask questions that pertain to the issue. As is, you are nitpicking over whether we are sons of men (earthly parents), which you and I assuredly are. Whether we are sons of God depends upon whether or not we know and have been born of love.

Hell must be a very scary concept for some people. It's is no wonder though, given how many view it in today's world. God's immeasurable mercy is extended to us even here, the abode of the fallen. This IS a fallen world, but this world and those in it are not without hope.

 

[luecy7]

If you were born of an earthly father than yes ... "we" includes you.

Not as you described it. Your words regarding your purpose are forever yours, and your deeds are yours alone, despite your feeble attempt to ascribe it to everyone else.

I again fail to see your point. Either this earth is a place of learning or it's not. The only contention would seem to be whether or not the earth is likewise the hell (a place of torment) spoken of by Jesus.

The point I made is that the hell is not really a place. More like a set of choices, of deeds and the absence of deeds.

As is, you are nitpicking over whether we are sons of men (earthly parents), which you and I assuredly are.

You insist that a person is the son of a man because he has a similar DNA makeup. Whereas Jesus reasoned in the gospels that a person is the son of a man as he uses his mind and body to follow and do similar deeds.

Whether we are sons of God depends upon whether or not we know and have been born of love.

Whereas I would relate it to the individual's choice of whether or not to be loving, and doing the will of God.

Hell must be a very scary concept for some people. It's is no wonder though, given how many view it in today's world.

A drug addict loves the drugs. A criminal has a purpose and achieves some goals, learning lots from the experience. A sinner loves his sin. Have you ever heard that some people commit crimes just so they can return to prison? Home sweet home.

Jesus did teach to fear: Fear him that can kill the body and place the soul in hell. You wanted a question, so here is your question: Who do you think Jesus was referring to, that you should fear? Who can place your soul in hell?

God's immeasurable mercy is extended to us even here, the abode of the fallen. This IS a fallen world, but this world and those in it are not without hope.

Sure: Hitler had a lot of hopes, and a lot of people had their hopes in Hitler. Every sinner has a hope in their sin. I see no shortage of hope in this world. Your hope looked selfish: you did not describe your hope for your friend, you described your hope in your own future.

 

[wil]

I agree again, only I think this world could be the heaven Jesus likewise declared to be at hand. The choice is ours to make it all it can be, and to learn from our mistakes when we fall short.

Yes, heaven, hell on earth/perception....man made

 

[Gatekeeper]

Not as you described it. Your words regarding your purpose are forever yours, and your deeds are yours alone, despite your feeble attempt to ascribe it to everyone else.

The point I made is that the hell is not really a place. More like a set of choices, of deeds and the absence of deeds.

You insist that a person is the son of a man because he has a similar DNA makeup. Whereas Jesus reasoned in the gospels that a person is the son of a man as he uses his mind and body to follow and do similar deeds.

Whereas I would relate it to the individual's choice of whether or not to be loving, and doing the will of God.

A drug addict loves the drugs. A criminal has a purpose and achieves some goals, learning lots from the experience. A sinner loves his sin. Have you ever heard that some people commit crimes just so they can return to prison? Home sweet home.

Jesus did teach to fear: Fear him that can kill the body and place the soul in hell. You wanted a question, so here is your question: Who do you think Jesus was referring to, that you should fear? Who can place your soul in hell?

Sure: Hitler had a lot of hopes, and a lot of people had their hopes in Hitler. Every sinner has a hope in their sin. I see no shortage of hope in this world. Your hope looked selfish: you did not describe your hope for your friend, you described your hope in your own future.

Sure, we are free to do what we want, but our actions are not without consequence. I obviously believe in rebirth. The hopeless sinner is free to continue sinning, whereas those who desire to avoid sin are free too do that also. I might suggest if we are to fear anything, it is God and/or ourselves. I'd prefer to avoid returning here if able. However, if I must return, then I know there is a reason for it. It's not so much about punishment as it is about preparation for God's kingdom. If you don't desire the kingdom, then that's on you. Another rebirth will likely be on the docket. Attitude means a lot, but attitude often reflects leadership. I just don't think we can avoid our karmic debt is all.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Yes, heaven, hell on earth/perception....man made

I might agree, but until there is no more suffering and all humanity knows peace, I think I'll call the earth hell just the same. They are not just places, but states of mind. It's how we approach life that makes the difference for many.

 

[luecy7]

Sure, we are free to do what we want, but our actions are not without consequence. I obviously believe in rebirth. The hopeless sinner is free to continue sinning, whereas those who desire to avoid sin are free too do that also. I might suggest if we are to fear anything, it is God and/or ourselves. I'd prefer to avoid returning here if able. However, if I must return, then I know there is a reason for it. It's not so much about punishment as it is about preparation for God's kingdom. If you don't desire the kingdom, then that's on you. Another rebirth will likely be on the docket. Attitude means a lot, but attitude often reflects leadership. I just don't think we can avoid our karmic debt is all.

So you believe that Jesus was just getting what he deserved. A karmic debt that he could not avoid. He must have deserved a painful death. He didn't want to be here: he had to be here. Not really a punishment, but a preparation for God's Kingdom, meaning that he was not truly prepared for God's Kingdom until someone punished him. Brilliant. That would sort of clear those who killed him: just doing their duty, following the order of... God. So you think we need more evil here, so that we can send more people to heaven. Give them their karmic dues.

I hope you find that a bit ludicrous. I see why you think heaven comes out of hell. Personal question: What line of work have you been in? I ask, because while I don't recognize your religion as being Christian, I do recognize it from somewhere else. I recognize it from the days that I was in the military. At the core: freedom purchased by war. A better place by dropping bombs and killing the bad people. Nail them terrorists and uncivil souls up on the cross. They deserve it, and it is good for them, right? All in the duty of preparing them for heaven.

 

[Gatekeeper]

So you believe that Jesus was just getting what he deserved. A karmic debt that he could not avoid. He must have deserved a painful death. He didn't want to be here: he had to be here. Not really a punishment, but a preparation for God's Kingdom, meaning that he was not truly prepared for God's Kingdom until someone punished him. Brilliant. That would sort of clear those who killed him: just doing their duty, following the order of... God. So you think we need more evil here, so that we can send more people to heaven. Give them their karmic dues.

I hope you find that a bit ludicrous. I see why you think heaven comes out of hell. Personal question: What line of work have you been in? I ask, because while I don't recognize your religion as being Christian, I do recognize it from somewhere else. I recognize it from the days that I was in the military. At the core: freedom purchased by war. A better place by dropping bombs and killing the bad people. Nail them terrorists and uncivil souls up on the cross. They deserve it, and it is good for them, right? All in the duty of preparing them for heaven.

I think our karmic debt is to simply die. The scriptures say the wages of sin are death. Punishment has little or nothing to do with it. If you have been following my posts, you would understand that. Jesus was born of a woman, thus he had to die like us. It's that simple.

Also, the whole point of life here (as I understand it) is to learn, grow, develop, and advance as a people. It's up to us whether we choose life over destruction. Jesus showed us the way of life. This path is far from the path of war you mentioned.

I could care less what you recognize about my views, Luecy. They are what they are. I make no apologies for them. You don't agree with them and that's fine. Disagree. The truth is that we don't know with certainty. We do know that this world can be a place of suffering and torment for many people, though.