Going through hell before we get to heaven

[luecy7]

I don't want to, but if I may quote Edmund Burke - "The only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing". This is an ugly and hard to absorb truth, but a mindset I have come to adopt over the years. As I stated ... I abhor war and violence, but I'm not so self righteous that my so called piety would allow another to inflict harm on those I love if I can prevent it.

Actually, I wouldn't call any kind of violence righteous. Violence is an ugly thing, and that's the point. It's an unrighteous act ... no matter the reason a person turns to it.

Did you change your mind betwen posts, or do you still maintain: self-righteous if you don't act to protect, and unrighteous if you do? I am encouraged by the later post.

I was saying that the opposite of being self-righteous is to seek the approval of others. I place that for any scenario. A parent should seek to obtain the approval of their children just as a child seeks the approval of their parents. It either helps to raise the children, or helps to raise the parents. It can strengthen relationships, but it can help cause some separations, hopefully for the better. Same for employer / employee, business / customer, etc...

 

[radarmark]

Luecy, so now "making your own decision" is "self-righteous" and "wrong". I decide to love my bride, so it is wrong? I decide to believe in science (not scientism), so that is wrong? I decide to lead a dance with my left foot and not my right, that too is wrong? Obviously you are not using "wrong" in the context of morality, so what do you mean to convey by it?

 

[Gatekeeper]

Did you change your mind betwen posts, or do you still maintain: self-righteous if you don't act to protect, and unrighteous if you do? I am encouraged by the later post.

I was saying that the opposite of being self-righteous is to seek the approval of others. I place that for any scenario. A parent should seek to obtain the approval of their children just as a child seeks the approval of their parents. It either helps to raise the children, or helps to raise the parents. It can strengthen relationships, but it can help cause some separations, hopefully for the better. Same for employer / employee, business / customer, etc...

I think either you misunderstood my implications, or I worded it as such that it seemed as if I said something I didn't mean to. When I suggested that it would be self righteous to not take action, I meant I am not that good of man as to never raise my hand against another. I don't think of my self so highly. In other words I know I'm not that righteous a person, and it would be self righteous of me to suggest I'm above violence.

 

[Passerby]

The Second Century Gnostics thought this is Hell. And the God of the Old Testament/Jewish Bible was really a devil god, although he did create this Universe/Hell. The kindly Father of Jesus was a different god, out to lunch somewhere, and if you got your head right, you could escape from this hell. Things were tough in the Second Century when Marcion thought it up. Didn't help that Jesus used "Father" like other Jewish magicians in the Talmud and Jewish Bible/Old Testament.

The historical Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas, about as close as we can get, says this is Heaven, not in the skies, or beneath our feet, or some time in the future, but spread out upon the earth and we don't see it.

 

[radarmark]

Very well put, GK. I, too am human and conflicted about this. I wish I could say I would not react violently to my bride being victimized but I do not know. I am pretty sure that if it occurred while I was absent, I would not seek or call for revenge. That is the limit of my self-confidence.

 

[radarmark]

Passerby, not bad at all, welcome aboard! The parusia did not end. The coming is not a one-time event fixed in time. At least, that is how I experience it and so believe.

 

[Passerby]

Hi Radarmark, yeah seems some thoughtful people here.

The Thomas sayings most explicit about this being heaven here now, this is the Kingdom, are....

P.Oxy 654.9-21
J[esus] said, "[If] those pulling you [say to you, 'Look,] the kingdom is in the sk[y,]' the birds of the sk[y will go before you. Or if they say t]hat it [is] beneath the ground, the fish of the se[a will go in, preced]ing you. And the king[dom of God] s within you [and outside you. Whoever] knows [himself will] find this [and when you] know yourselves [you will know that] you are [children] of the l[iving] father. [But if] you will [not] know yourselves, [you are] in [poverty] and you are the pov[erty.]"

Thomas 18The disciples said to Jesus: "Tell us how our end will be." Jesus said: "Have you already discovered the beginning that you are now asking about the end? For where the beginning is, there the end will be too. Blessed is he who will stand at the beginning. And he will know the end, and he will not taste death."

Thomas 51His disciples said to him: When will the <resurrection> of the dead take place, and when will the new world come?" He said to them: "That (resurrection) which you are awaiting has (already) come, but you do not recognize it."

Thomas 113His disciples said to him: "The kingdom – on what day will it come?""It will not come by watching (and waiting for) it. They will not say: ‘Look, here!’ or ‘Look, there!’ Rather, the kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and people do not see it."

 

[radarmark]

Yes, Thomas is a good source with which one may validate their experience. Understand that for Quakers it is the experience which is primary. Scriptures and doctrine and faith are kinda-sorta second-tier.

 

[Passerby]

Well, follow the Golden Rule and you can't go wrong. The rest is details.

Yes, Thomas is a good source with which one may validate their experience. Understand that for Quakers it is the experience which is primary. Scriptures and doctrine and faith are kinda-sorta second-tier.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Hi Radarmark, yeah seems some thoughtful people here.

The Thomas sayings most explicit about this being heaven here now, this is the Kingdom, are....

P.Oxy 654.9-21
J[esus] said, "[If] those pulling you [say to you, 'Look,] the kingdom is in the sk[y,]' the birds of the sk[y will go before you. Or if they say t]hat it [is] beneath the ground, the fish of the se[a will go in, preced]ing you. And the king[dom of God] s within you [and outside you. Whoever] knows [himself will] find this [and when you] know yourselves [you will know that] you are [children] of the l[iving] father. [But if] you will [not] know yourselves, [you are] in [poverty] and you are the pov[erty.]"

Thomas 18The disciples said to Jesus: "Tell us how our end will be." Jesus said: "Have you already discovered the beginning that you are now asking about the end? For where the beginning is, there the end will be too. Blessed is he who will stand at the beginning. And he will know the end, and he will not taste death."

Thomas 51His disciples said to him: When will the <resurrection> of the dead take place, and when will the new world come?" He said to them: "That (resurrection) which you are awaiting has (already) come, but you do not recognize it."

Thomas 113His disciples said to him: "The kingdom – on what day will it come?""It will not come by watching (and waiting for) it. They will not say: ‘Look, here!’ or ‘Look, there!’ Rather, the kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and people do not see it."

I quite agree with what you've posted. Those who are unable to find liberty in Christ are bound by worldly things. However, when a person does obtain a sense of liberty in Christ, the whole world becomes a sanctuary of sorts. There are two contrasting worlds present on earth. One is the Kingdom and the other is more Hellish. I find it difficult to retain a joyous attitude when so many others suffer on earth. The kingdom is, can be, will be here, but until all humanity enters therein, it just isn't complete. No more tears!

 

[Passerby]

If this is a Multiverse, as modern science screams at us, (and who are we to tell God how to run the Universe), then everything that can happen, does happen. Blessed are the poor, because inanother branch of the Many Worlds, they will win the lottery and find love that doesn't fade.

To cut off branches, of the Tree of Life, with some suffering, would be to commit mass murder on a cosmic scale. This maximizes life.

And after all, a world with all candy cane happyland, might become one of those Twilight Zone episodes where you regret getting what you wished for.

As the Mandaean followers of John the Baptist always end the refrain...

And Life is Victorious!

 

[Gatekeeper]

You want balance, whereas I desire that all who desire happiness and joy receive it. It could be that our attitudes make all the difference. Even to the point where death has no sting! Tears of sorrow could turn into tears of joy knowing a new beginning awaits the deceased. What of hunger and starvation? These things make my heart weep. Shouldn't the able bodies then help provide for those who cannot? We are said to be the body of Christ after all.

 

[Passerby]

Yes, Gatekeeper, I can list 1000 cases, from Genesis to Jesus where the Christian Bible takes the side of the poor and persecuted, and the number of cases there are in the Bible to the contrary?

0.

Zero.

But the Multiverse, is the answer to "Why does God permit such suffering in the world." We all live all possible lives, good and bad.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Yes, Gatekeeper, I can list 1000 cases, from Genesis to Jesus where the Christian Bible takes the side of the poor and persecuted, and the number of cases there are in the Bible to the contrary?

0.

Zero.

But the Multiverse, is the answer to "Why does God permit such suffering in the world." We all live all possible lives, good and bad.

Multiverse? Interesting. I'd say the world is a multiverse melting pot, then.

 

[Passerby]

Well, it make us much greater than the corpse we find ourselves in. We are just part of a much greater us, extending in directions we can't imagine, all those what-if's and their pasts and futures.

Jesus isn't the only one that felt that way, but here's an example of his way of saying it...

Thomas 29
Jesus says: "If the flesh came into being because of the spirit, it is a wonder. But if the spirit (came into being) because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has taken up residence in this poverty."

Multiverse? Interesting. I'd say the world is a multiverse melting pot, then.

 

[Gatekeeper]

We are spiritual beings who occupy temporal bodies? I've often thought this myself. I simply can't imagine how life can just end and be no more. I rather believe that the end of our temporal bodies simply leads to another beginning for our spiritual selves.

 

[Passerby]

That's what the Quantum Theory (and Jesus) says, it's called "Quantum Immortality". There is eternal life from pure science, not that Jesus anticipated the truth of science, but science is finally approximating the truth of Jesus.

In my opinion.

We are spiritual beings who occupy temporal bodies? I've often thought this myself. I simply can't imagine how life can just end and be no more. I rather believe that the end of our temporal bodies simply leads to another beginning for our spiritual selves.

 

[luecy7]

I think either you misunderstood my implications, or I worded it as such that it seemed as if I said something I didn't mean to. When I suggested that it would be self righteous to not take action, I meant I am not that good of man as to never raise my hand against another. I don't think of my self so highly. In other words I know I'm not that righteous a person, and it would be self righteous of me to suggest I'm above violence.

You can be above violence. Take responsibility for the choice.

 

[luecy7]

Luecy, so now "making your own decision" is "self-righteous" and "wrong". I decide to love my bride, so it is wrong? I decide to believe in science (not scientism), so that is wrong? I decide to lead a dance with my left foot and not my right, that too is wrong? Obviously you are not using "wrong" in the context of morality, so what do you mean to convey by it?

Why do you ask me? You should ask your bride. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

 

[radarmark]

You did not answer the question. The phrases in quotes are yours. But I take it they convey nothing other than what you want to say at the time. Fine.