There is no G!d...
- Thread starter wil
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And yet, the truth of self is the first and final truth upon which all else depends.
Actually, it's not ...
A
AdvaitaZen
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Self is another thought arising in what we are.
You are perfectly right though, all other thoughts depend this one, all beliefs rest on this notion of self.
As a Christian you are saying your self is identified with Christ, seeing through this self, Christianity is seen through and you are left with only what Christ tried to show the world.
Without any identifications you are left with that mind which was also in Christ Jesus, you only partake in the divine nature when you have dropped all notions of separateness, when you have known union.
When you understand why it is said God is love, and it is seen you cannot be other than that.
All is love, without lover or beloved.
Right Thomas... I'd like you to find in your mind or in this forum where I've ever pointed at you and said anything similar to this....
I'd argue it, but it would be futile. Go ahead, replace the word Unity with Catholicism and you know I never did.
What I think it is, is that you have developed a new understanding in the past few years...one that has you quaking in your boots of belief, one which is tearing down your temple and you are realizing the tme you've spent and devoted has been misguided and you have been mislead. You realize you've been duped and you have duped others repeatedly and insistently.
Well you are half right. But the fact of the matter is your time has not been wasted...you can make ammends...you can come out of the closet and admit you have grown and are not confined to 2000 and 3000 year old thinking....but the basis of your study...your incredible foundation of understanding of scripture will set you free and lead you to the light....you are blessed with knowledge and connection.... and you may choose now to let go.
go in light my brother.
I can see it in this very thread.
My understanding deepens all the time, but there's no temple tearing ...
Wil, You have chosen to turn your back on the wisdom of the world. I have not. I tend to agree with George Santayana: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"
The issue rather rests with not what – or who – is known, but what, or who, knows. As you say, 'thoughts arise' and for such to occur there must be a thinker ...
Are you telling me, or asking me?
But union still presupposes two, doesn't it?
And there, without knowing it, you approach the Mystery of the Blessed Trinity, for there cannot be love if there is not a lover, nor a lover without a beloved ... God is One, and God is Three.
A
AdvaitaZen
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And yet, God is known, the "me" is known, what is it which actually knows?
Does it matter what we say about it, indeed, can anything be said about it? The traditions all try, but the proliferation of those traditions show clearly the flaw in this - even in a given tradition, concepts within the tradition differ, let alone the many differing traditions, and yet all are saying the same thing ultimately.
The problem is we try to comprehend through knowledge, we value what is known, but we do not stop and look at what knows - as you rightly point out.
All differences stem from this, all problems in the world are only because of this, so it is very important for me that people understand it. How can we possibly differ at this point? How we get here is irrelevant, what we call it is irrelevant, but once here differences as such simply fall.
The point of pure awareness, the seer of all which arises - be it deep sleep, dreams, thoughts or actions, the very world itself, or any spiritual experience - that which is ever present, it cannot be affected by whatsoever we choose to believe.
We see all that we hold important is merely a thought we give too much attention to.
Certainly, but this is only a question of semantics, perspective.
For one who perceives duality, it looks like union. From the place of union there was never division in the first place.
You call it the Blessed Trinity, but this is a concept. You bring in a notion which does not match the experience, for in the experience of union there is no other to love, there is only a pure love, every cell in the universe seems to pulse with ecstasy and each cell is not separate from you - it is why Buddha has said when a man is enlightened, the whole universe is enlightened with him.
If your love has a target, it is not yet pure, it remains merely mental.
Indeed, if it is your love, the very point has been missed.
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AdvaitaZen
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Please see: How can freedom be determined by definitions?
Whatsoever you bring into this moment is delusion.
Just being here is enough, to be utterly open to this moment, an immense love is found.
Just that you are, that all this is, the beauty of it all, the miracle, that sheer wonder comes as it did when we were children.
Let go.
Let go of all that arises in the mind, of all you think you have to do here, and simply be here.
No words touch this, we can only stop avoiding it.
Whatsoever you bring into this moment is delusion.
Just being here is enough, to be utterly open to this moment, an immense love is found.
Just that you are, that all this is, the beauty of it all, the miracle, that sheer wonder comes as it did when we were children.
Let go.
Let go of all that arises in the mind, of all you think you have to do here, and simply be here.
No words touch this, we can only stop avoiding it.
The Biblical G-d is but one groups view, there are many others as you well know. Perhaps G-d has no anthropomorphic representation and no corresponding mental image to find.
Today the merchandisers have become more cleaver than ever trying to play us for fools.
Growing older, LOL seems like a bit of a rip now and again!
Good to see your thoughts.
Knowing.
Oh yes! I think the First Chapter of the Tao Te Ching says a great deal.
I think to say anything else is an artificial and self-imposed limit on human nature. Man's capacity to know is infinite, and that sau=ys something in itself.
Well there are many nuances to this. Man is diverse, and the authentic traditions must necessarily cover a broad diversity of experience and expression.
And, of course, at the other extreme, we have pride. Babel is part of the human condition.
The greater tragedy is people use this as an excuse to avoid the tiresome demands of tradition. They cherry-pick the things they like, ignore the things they don't ... again, it's something which all traditions warn against: spiritual pride. Indeed, it's something that every tradition says, but it's the first thing that modernity, which is convinced of the myth of its own invincibility, chooses to ignore.
The Desert Fathers knew this well: "A beginner who goes from one monastery to another is like a wild animal who jumps this way and that for fear of the halter." Today people read stuff from here and there, this tradition and that, they spout quotes as if they understand what they're saying, but really, they haven't started at all. They're just very will informed.
Much better is to find a tradition and get on with it.
Today in the West (at least), we have all but lost the language of symbol, so we are generally ignorant of the meaning of tradition. Whilst what is spoken of is ultimately beyond words, that is where Tradition comes into its own, as it were, it transcends the words.
Well yes, and no.
They say the same thing with regard to man, because man is the same everywhere. But regarding other matters, I would not be so quick to jump to conclusions.
A concept is an idea with no substance, is it not? 'Thomas' is a concept, 'AdvaitaZen' is a concept, 'God' is a concept, 'table' and 'chair', 'cat' and 'dog are concepts ... until you come to know them.
I would say pure love is the gift of self.
Does it, or is that too, just a concept you picked up from a book?
I wonder if you are aware that the above two 'concepts' — love and light (and of course I believe them to be far more than that) — are fundamental to the Christian Tradition?
I mean, I know you can find them in Scripture, but are you aware of the extent of the testimony of their realisation? You might cite Eckhart and, I would say, he is a prince among mystics ... but he is not alone. St Therese and St John of the Cross spring to mind, St Gregory of Nyssa, St Denys, Catherine of Genoa and then there is the testimony of the words of Christ to Catherine of Sienna: "I am He Who Is, you are she who is not" ... and there are scores of others ... hundreds ... who speak not just of concept, not even of experience, but of being.
You see, here's the problem, AdvaitaZen. Whilst you seek to instruct me about the shortcomings of my way, it's abundantly clear to me that your knowledge of it is certainly insufficient to have anything to say, and your judgements are based on sentimental opinion. What is more telling is you show no desire to understand it, rather you seem only interested in pointing out its flaws, as you see them.
It would be very unwise for me to engage you in a discussion of the deeper aspects of my tradition. You are too ready to judge that of which, really, you know very little.
Ah....hee hee.... I love the wrinkles in that irony!
just a concept you picked up from a book.... luv it.
I rest my case.
According to your post... we can no longer cite book references as discussion points....
'just' a concept we picked up from a book.
I like it. No more internet links, no more citations, no more canon
No more G!d.
QED
'just' a concept we picked up from a book.
I like it. No more internet links, no more citations, no more canon
No more G!d.
QED
A Cup Of Tea
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Question? Who of you are winning?
Tis a discussion about beliefs, not a conversion, no losers, both of us win in learning more.
A Cup Of Tea
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I'm just goofy, when you use 'I rest my case.' you two remind me of all the silly people on the internet that try to convince everyone they are right. You two are not one of those, in my book, I'm just saying.
A
AdvaitaZen
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Knowing is itself a function of mind, what is it which is before the mind? That cannot be known, it is not a knowing at all, you can only be that.
That which can be said is not the true Tao.
The problem is exactly that we think we know something, but Jesus has said we must return to a child-like state. It is exactly this meaning, that we should cease to believe we know anything.
There is no possibility of diversity in truth.
Whatsoever is experienced, whatsoever is expressed, it is all happening in front of truth, none of it ever touches truth.
Do you think you hide your own babel with your quotes and prideful assertions about Christ? I go on trying to show you that for which belief itself appears, that you are before any belief, any thought or identification. Whatsoever you think you are is just a thought arising for you. Why can't you just be here and now and throw away all the nonsense?
For me, the only thing wrong here is that people insist they remain within a tradition. Tradition as such is disgusting, it only fuels the identifications and attaches us to the past. For me, these men should all be remembered, their words remembered, but no more should and tradition cling to them. For me, the traditions have poisoned human history enough, taken advantage of man long enough, it is time to cut all ties.
Do you think the information from a single tradition is more helpful than bringing in the wisdom of many, seeing many sides to this pursuit? It is more likely to further the ego, as I see in you a very strong one. Anything which fortifies the ego is dangerous on this path, and monastic life is one of the most dangerous of all religious practices. How can freedom come from such a rigid way of life?
I cannot disagree more, for your vision will be incomplete. You take a single perspective as absolute truth, you will insist on certain notions without much valid evidence. No, you should walk your own path, and take the help which is offered along the way.
Tradition cannot transcend words, for even a symbol is only another typeset. What is being pointed at is not in the words, find out from where they are spoken.
It is exactly the opposite of what you say.
Truth is the same no matter where you go, but the audience always differs. You cannot take the same message to a divergent audience and expect them all to glean the same, yet how so ever it is said, all the traditions point to the same truth.
The one who comes to know them is another concept. You have brought in the past to know it, this knowing remains a thought and takes away from the mystery and beauty of this moment. We fear the unknown, and so we want to become familiar with everything around us, but now we overlook the miracle. Yet, in truth, nothing has become clearer at all by knowing, we only equate this moments unknowing with concepts from another moment and pretend we understand.
To say it is a gift is to say there is a giver and receiver, yet if you know pure love, you know this is not true.
Everything I say is a concept, an attempt to convey the unsayable. We have to use words to convey this though, the difference it seems is that you actually believe what you're saying to be true. I know it is all crap, but where it points is the fulfillment of life.
Do you think these are original to Christianity? Do you think I have chosen these words for any other reason than I am speaking to a Christian? That light is only awareness, and that love is the activity of bliss, but to say these you would miss.
Words are always just concepts.
Again, you miss the point.
The way is arising only for the ego, what you are seeking is ever behind the nonsense of your "way".
Do you think Jesus studied, or did he simply speak from the heart what he knew to be true? No amount of information can bring about the transformation which happened in Christ, indeed it is the very dropping of that information and tradition which has permitted it. The Bible is filled with examples of how Jesus broke with tradition, but all I see from the Christians is a repeat of the Jews not seeing what they are looking at because it doesn't comply with text.
A
AdvaitaZen
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Empty your mind of all thoughts.
Let your heart be at peace.
Watch the turmoil of beings,
but contemplate their return.
Each separate being in the Universe
returns to the common source.
Returning to the source is serenity.
~Lao Tsu~
Tao Te Ching
Note nothing is ever said about that source, because how can you say anything?
This is exactly what Jesus points to when he says "Be still and know", and nothing else is needed, truly.
Let your heart be at peace.
Watch the turmoil of beings,
but contemplate their return.
Each separate being in the Universe
returns to the common source.
Returning to the source is serenity.
~Lao Tsu~
Tao Te Ching
Note nothing is ever said about that source, because how can you say anything?
This is exactly what Jesus points to when he says "Be still and know", and nothing else is needed, truly.