Reincarnation Within Monotheism?

[wil]

Anne Lamott - "Not forgiving is like drinking rat poison and then waiting for the rat to die."

No proof Radar? We've all gone thru it....we've had the inner turmoil of holding a grudge and know what it feels like.... forgiveness is FOR us to GIVE to others...without regard with what they 'gave' to us....unconditional love is where it is at.



I refer to what you went thru donnann not as reincarnation but resurection....you went through your time in the garden, your time on the cross and in the tomb and have been born anew...with a new outlook and new understanding....

 

[donnann]

Anne Lamott - "Not forgiving is like drinking rat poison and then waiting for the rat to die."

No proof Radar? We've all gone thru it....we've had the inner turmoil of holding a grudge and know what it feels like.... forgiveness is FOR us to GIVE to others...without regard with what they 'gave' to us....unconditional love is where it is at.



I refer to what you went thru donnann not as reincarnation but resurection....you went through your time in the garden, your time on the cross and in the tomb and have been born anew...with a new outlook and new understanding....

Yes. I am still maturing though.

 

[wil]

Yes. I am still maturing though.

with any luck at all....we all are.

 

[radarmark]

wil I did not explain myself well enough. The "totally unknowable, un-falsibiale, un-provable" is karma, no the process of forgiving. You are pretty spot on there.

 

[wil]

ah.... Karma now to me is this big pendelum...except this big pendelum is big like a wrecking ball swung by a crane that can knock down a tall building...

And my actions negative and positive put this thing in motion....

while it swings out away from me with something I've done wrong to my fellow man, planet etc it is gaining momentum with each action...and will come swinging back at me from a direction I don't expect...not always right back from whenst I started it....

Now other actions good ones can reduce its acceleration speed and energy...or divert it from my path all together...and yeah metaphor...not metaphor you maybe, but metaphor me.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Wil,
　
You said,
　
"Forgiving is never for the perpetrator...but for the forgiver. Holding a grudge, leaving this blame and hate in my being has a negative impact on me, not the perp."
　
--> There is difference between human forgiveness and divine forgiveness. Everyone agrees that people need to learn to forgive, and that it is psycholically beneficial for us to forgive. Karma says that the forgiveness of sins doesn’t happen, but this refers to divine forgiveness, not human forgiveness.

ACOT,

You asked,

"…a person who has 'sinned' (lets just call it that for now) deserves to suffer or be punished so that they understand what they did wrong?"
　
--> Yes, they do, but it is more than just being forced to understand what they have done. They now have a karmic debt to undo what they have done. I have previously told the story of a man who committed suicide. He was then forced into one extra reincarnation where he worked as a doctor and saved people who had attempted suicide. He was successful in saving people from their suicide attempts, his karmic debt was paid off, he became very anti-suicide, and none of this would have been achieved if his ‘sin’ had been simply forgiven. This is a good example of how the forced burning off of bad karma is good and necessary.

It has been said that doing a bad thing throws the universe out of balance, and only by having the person burn off their bad karma can the universe be put back into balance.
　

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Yes, they do, but it is more than just being forced to understand what they have done. They now have a karmic debt to undo what they have done. I have previously told the story of a man who committed suicide. He was then forced into one extra reincarnation where he worked as a doctor and saved people who had attempted suicide. He was successful in saving people from their suicide attempts, his karmic debt was paid off, he became very anti-suicide, and none of this would have been achieved if his ‘sin’ had been simply forgiven. This is a good example of how the forced burning off of bad karma is good and necessary. [/SIZE]

It has been said that doing a bad thing throws the universe out of balance, and only by having the person burn off their bad karma can the universe be put back into balance.
　

But I don't understand why this is. I can understand the example I gave when the purpose was to understand (even though I strongly disagree), but what you try to describe is nothing more then rules to me, I see no purpose.

 

[Thomas]

Forgiveness does not require contrition...

You're quite right, I should have made that clear. Mea culpa.

The point I was trying to make is that I don't know of any religion that 'green lights' its members without them having to show any sign of a 'change of heart'.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

ACOT,

I appreciate your attempt to understand. This is what interfaith communication is all about. I respect your saying there is no purpose for karma, and that you strongly disagree with the idea of karma, because that is what you believe. As long as we can take a look at each other's belief systems and do it in a positive and upbeat way, we are making progress.

 

[Thomas]

I am still of the mind that the classic view of reincarnation, being expressed here, is a misreading of the true doctrine. I am quite willing to be corrected on that point.

I don't believe this individual comes back as another — I can't see how, without facing a whole series of conundrums.

I tend to see it as a universal rather than a particular property. Human nature incarnates itself all the time, and what one generation does (or fails to do), lays the ground for the following generations.

But in terms of 'debt', who's keeping the books? Why punish Peter for Paul's wrongs?

I see popular notions of reincarnation as a 'solution' to the problem of suffering, injustice, and so on. The question of why bad things happen to good people is universal, and the thought that someone who's obviously 'got away with it' in this life pays for it in the next is comforting ... in the same way that the idea that one has an infinite number of chances to get it right is far more appealing than being told you've got one shot to make it count.

I am quite ready to consider the idea that reincarnation and the western idea of purgatory address the same fundamental question, and there might be fruitful discussion in the comparison of one and the other, but we have to distance ourselves from populist assumptions.

 

[wil]

I see us any concept of divine forgiveness as anthropomorphizing....

G!d is love...unconditional love....not just that but surely that. I don't buy the OT passive agressive off his meds god....that is man placing blame on man's deeds and the unknown in the lap of G!d...not G!d.

the divine has no need to forgive...the divine sees us as healthy and whole and perfect creations....

we are punished by our sins...just like gravity...karma isn't divine retribution it is simply the law, the law of what comes around goes around, the law of for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction, the law of whatever you do for the least of me you do to me....

as usual...these are my understandings....your mileage may vary....but as a layer of bliss fell over me whilst typing....I believe there to be an essence of truth in there someplace...

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Wil,

I agree. I would add one thing: The temporary, artificial sense of separateness that we now have between all of us will one day be lifted, and our true nature will finally be realized. We will have earned it, and it will be a great day indeed.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

I see us any concept of divine forgiveness as anthropomorphizing...

When governed by sentimentalism (or fundamentalism, or both), yes ...

... but surely any relation between the human and the Divine will inevitably bear such a trace? How else can the divine communicate but through the faculties?
(I am reminded of Lexx, a sci-fi series on TV many years ago. I found a site with 'the ten rules of Lexx' one of which was that the crew of the spaceship will never meet a more advanced species than man, because if they did, how would the script writers know what to write? I still laugh at the infallible logic!)

The very real risk is that, without some frame of reference, we're left with theories and abstractions?

G!d is love...unconditional love....not just that but surely that.

Who told you that? How do you know? Is that not itself an anthropomorphism?

I don't buy the OT passive agressive off his meds god....that is man placing blame on man's deeds and the unknown in the lap of G!d...not G!d.

Hmm ... er ... OK ... but ... I mean ... is this not a somewhat sentimental and anthropomorphic judgement upon Scripture? Are you not adopting the very viewpoint you criticise?

I see it as a pre-modern culture trying to make sense of the world. I don't expect them to address their problems with a 21st century sensibility. I think it's a bit unfair to judge the past from a post-modern perspective.

the divine has no need to forgive...the divine sees us as healthy and whole and perfect creations....

Now you are anthropomorphising!

we are punished by our sins...just like gravity...

Wil! This is all anthropomorphism! (and comparing sin and gravity is like comparing a fish to a bicycle ... )

karma isn't divine retribution it is simply the law, the law of what comes around goes around, the law of for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction, the law of whatever you do for the least of me you do to me....

Er, no ... the first two are cause and effect, but the 'least of me' bit is a moral and human proscription.

And consider ... what's the point of bliss?

 

[wil]

Namaste Thomas.... and yes G!d doesn't see or experience anything...G!d is everything...G!d is all there is.

My bad in using the word "see" in G!d 'sees' us as healthy whole and perfect...as manifestations of the one, expressions in 3d we are inherently good.

But as to the OT absolutely agree on your premodern culture perspective......3,000 years ago, sitting around the fire they explained things the best we could....holding onto that as having value beyond the metaphors and allegories of the stories with the knowledge that we have today is ludicrous...and frightening....to me. Of course on your side of the pond you don't have folks reading all this stuff literally...

What is the point of bliss? Joy? Love beyond understanding? I don't know if it has a point, being intoxicated by contemplation.....drunk from within without substance from without.... point or destination I don't know... my bad...I simply roll in it like cool grass on a warm summer day, like cuddling up in grandma's lap.... funny some things I don't second guess....just experience.

 

[Thomas]

Namaste Thomas.... and yes G!d doesn't see or experience anything...G!d is everything...G!d is all there is.

Then what's the point of you? (I still think you're still in sentimental anthropomorphic mode )

Of course on your side of the pond you don't have folks reading all this stuff literally...

Oh, I'm sure we do. And worse, it's just that I don't let that shape my thinking. And I know for a fact you have some pretty keen theological minds on your side. Think of Tom Merton!

There's a multi-denominational church next to my daughter's flat. She once phoned and asked if I could think of any reason why there should be screaming emanating from the place after 2.00am in the morning? Was there something in any denominational calendar that would involve the congregation being in the building at that time of night? (No and, to my best knowledge, no. Phone the police.)

The place us used by certain African denominations, and we've had cases of 'exorcisms' that have led to at least three ritual murders of children less than 10 years old, and in the most horrific circumstances ... but I'm not saying that is typical of the African religious expression.

What is the point of bliss?

Rhetorical question. But worth thinking about ...

 

[donnann]

I see us any concept of divine forgiveness as anthropomorphizing....

G!d is love...unconditional love....not just that but surely that. I don't buy the OT passive agressive off his meds god....that is man placing blame on man's deeds and the unknown in the lap of G!d...not G!d.

the divine has no need to forgive...the divine sees us as healthy and whole and perfect creations....

we are punished by our sins...just like gravity...karma isn't divine retribution it is simply the law, the law of what comes around goes around, the law of for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction, the law of whatever you do for the least of me you do to me....



as usual...these are my understandings....your mileage may vary....but as a layer of bliss fell over me whilst typing....I believe there to be an essence of truth in there someplace...

What about in the case of a baby? When I was born I came out dead. My mother said that the cord had wrapped around my neck. She was told the doctor refused to give up on me even though a lot of time had passed while I was dead. What karmic debt does a new born have? We are all a product of consciousness. Is is that we punish each other? The divine do not preach about punishment. To me hell isnt a place of of punishment but is more like gods mental institution. However to me its a good mental institution where they do not harm you physically or mentally. Did you know the word psychiatrist means doctor of the soul? To me good karma heals. Bad karma in the days of jesus would be called demonic attacks. When that consciousness invades someone its called demonic possession.

 

[wil]

A. I don't believe in a physical hell...or an other worldly hell. Hell is a state of mind, the devil is the negative adversary in our mind...

I don't know what you happenned when you were a baby, nor do I believe it was any karmic response. I do believe in another day and time you would not have lived. I do believe from what you have said that your mother's doctors (and yours) performed a valiant effort to assist you into this life when the cards were stacked against you.

 

[donnann]

A. I don't believe in a physical hell...or an other worldly hell. Hell is a state of mind, the devil is the negative adversary in our mind...

I don't know what you happenned when you were a baby, nor do I believe it was any karmic response. I do believe in another day and time you would not have lived. I do believe from what you have said that your mother's doctors (and yours) performed a valiant effort to assist you into this life when the cards were stacked against you.

My point was that sometimes karma , bad karma isnt a result of anything we have done wrong but sometimes wrong things that others are doing.
Even the fluttering of a butterflies wings has an effect. I believe in a literal hell but to me its more like gods mental institution where your psyche gets better and not a place of suffering. The thing is does consciouness that opposes your consciousness, separate entities, exist?

 

[donnann]

Wil,

I agree. I would add one thing: The temporary, artificial sense of separateness that we now have between all of us will one day be lifted, and our true nature will finally be realized. We will have earned it, and it will be a great day indeed.

I think each individual does have a true nature. Finding that true nature within ones self is the key. The true nature is the open door.

 

[desert-rat]

I see karma as more a self punishment , not from God , or other forces . On hell , people that have visited levels of the astral plane state that there are many places where dead people have created the kind of life they had when alive . Shoping centers , banks , schools, ect. Some had created for them selfs a hell , they believed in hell so strongly , and knew they belonged there .