Was Jesus Michael or God?

Thomas said:
The KJV is not the best text for scholarly study. It's a wonderful translation, but it's written for the heart and soul, not the head ... K. James wanted a text in English that was lyrical and poetic, not necessarily technically accurate.

In the Hebrew the verb is amad – to stand:
1) to stand, take one's stand, be in a standing attitude, stand forth, take a stand, present oneself, attend upon, be or become servant of
2) to stand still, stop (moving or doing), cease
3) to tarry, delay, remain, continue, abide, endure, persist, be steadfast
4) to make a stand, hold one's ground
5) to stand upright, remain standing, stand up, rise, be erect, be upright
6) to arise, appear, come on the scene, stand forth, appear, rise up or against
7) to stand with, take one's stand, be appointed, grow flat, grow insipid

In the KJV the verb is variously translated as:
stood 171 (times), stand 137, raise, stand... up 42, set 32, stay 17, still 15, appointed 10, standing 10, endure 8, remain 8, present 7, continue 6, withstand 6, waited 5, establish 5 — but not 'resurrect'.

What is the deal with Micheal, anyway?

Don't get me wrong, he's an archangel and a heavy-hitter, and when I was doing my studies, we said the prayer to St Michael daily, after the Liturgy:
Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle;
be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray:
and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits
who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen.

But Christ alone saves, and anything an archangel does, he does because Christ wills it.

Remember that although Daniel is considered prophetic (and the scholars are divided over how much actual prophecy there was), he knew nothing of Christ, and at the End Times, Christ will be directing things personally.
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He is not only called the Prince of the heavenly host but also the prince of the people. Daniel being prophetic shows that he has a direct participation in delivery of the people. Of course GOD is thee saviour of all the saviours.
Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's. This phrase is one of the phrases in the bible that shows that saviours were sent.
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Only two of God's angels are directly named in the Bible, the Archangel Michael and Gabriel, God's special messenger. So these two angels must be special angels!
Another important rank of angels are Archangels.
Archangels

The term or prefix 'arch' is Greek for ruling or Chief. Archangels are only mentioned twice in the Bible and only one angel is specifically called an Archangel, Michael 1.
The only other time the word Archangel appears in the Bible is to do with the end of time 2.
Both of these cases, speak of a singular Archangel which could suggest that there is only one arch or ruler angel and that indeed is Michael.
There is a strong Jewish tradition that says there are seven Archangels and many think that the seven angels mentioned in the book of Revelation could be seven Archangels 3.Archangels, Michael & Gabriel -- whyangels?com


Page 4: It is understood that this poem (the opening poem of Booklet V) was “given” by GABRIEL since HE was known in many incarnations as “the messenger of the Gods” and it is stated here “I am that messenger.” He was GANYMEDE and HERMES who were known as messengers of their times. Because LUCIFERhad such great power, not even GABRIEL spoke in liberty. … GABRIEL is called “FILIAL WISDOM” or the faithful ONE among whose soul symbols was the dog which was given the name of one of HIS incarnations, ANUBIS. The ancients tried to avoid the worship of personalities by using symbols for the qualities of the soul in speaking of that which otherwise would have been a personality.
Page 5: ENSHROUDED FILIAL WISDOM is to decree a “moulded proclamation” (GABRIEL will “blow his horn first”, or will give the first new light on religious subjects in this AGE).
Page 33-34: It might be possible to make a better understanding of esoteric facts if it is explained that MICHAEL, THE LEADER OF THE HOSTS OF HEAVEN, was called CHRIST, or KING OF KINGS when HE descended to earth. “AS ABOVE SO BELOW,” HE also became LEADER OF THE HOSTS OF EARTH, for who else could be Leader in Heaven except CHRIST?Archangel Gabriel

This is directly in line with end time prophecy which Daniel 12 is. Even if you say in that day michael will rise up that also can be interpreted as some kind of resurrection.
 
Thomas said:
Purely selfish. I need my science fix, and you and New Scientist are it!


Hmmm ... irrational, perhaps, but there must be an element of rationality. If there's no rationalist, there can be no accusation of evil.

Evil belongs in the moral sphere, and is the wilful decision to serve a 'lesser good', or go against the good, in pursuit of some other end (which might well be one's own immediate good in the sense of gratification). People tend to forget that when they argue the necessity of evil, or try and give it a positive or beneficial value.

I always recall the artist Bill Viola being shown a collection of Buddhist demon statuary in a museum in Japan. "Where do they all come from?" he mused. His Buddhist guide reached forward and tapped him on the chest. "In there," he said.


I'll say ... but the source is twofold, pride and envy.


I think the 'person' of the Opponent is the product of human activity, certainly, and most of that from the rather fervid imaginations of the Medieval era. Dante has a lot to answer for!

But there was something there prior, in a created rational nature. The serpent cannot tempt the Primordial Couple if they haven't the capacity to be tempted, or to defy God.

It's the price of freedom and autonomy, really, like the possibility of making the wrong decision. (A wrong decision is not necessarily evil.) A potentiality to defy nature and, in the end, defy God.

By defy nature, I do not mean like trying to fly. But if one aeronaut sabotages the flying rig of another, that is evil.

Is evil a tendency? I don't think so, although the Seven Deadly Sins are there in all of us as a potentiality. (Someone (a perennialist) did a nice piece once on how the 7DS are determined by spatiotemporal conditions.)

Philosophy (and Catholic theology) tend to argue that man is not evil by nature (as our Protestant cousins seem to think), and that the good tends towards the good.

They say money is the root of all evil, which is somewhat inaccurate. It's pride. Pride and its product, envy.
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Archangel Gabriel
This is the link to the site
 
thomas thomas....they DONT say money is the root of all evil...this common misonception should not be repeated by you....the LOVE of money is the root of all evil...first timothy 6:10
 
Michael means empowered by God, God is the power itself.

What is the difference?

It is sheer foolishness to think they are two things.
 
wil said:
thomas thomas....they DONT say money is the root of all evil...this common misonception should not be repeated by you....the LOVE of money is the root of all evil...first timothy 6:10
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You cannot serve two masters, either love or money.

You must choose.
 
To live and to reproduce (living in a strictly biological sense), we all serve multiple masters. The state (try to avoid military service or taxes), a legal system (try being a murderer or a rapist or a con man), a family unit (try compromising martial fidelity in most marriages).

It would be nice to serve only love. But only a hermit in the Himlayas could do that. Most of us have to deal with that big nasty world.
 
radarmark said:
To live and to reproduce (living in a strictly biological sense), we all serve multiple masters. The state (try to avoid military service or taxes), a legal system (try being a murderer or a rapist or a con man), a family unit (try compromising martial fidelity in most marriages).

It would be nice to serve only love. But only a hermit in the Himlayas could do that. Most of us have to deal with that big nasty world.
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I tell you it is possible in one of the largest cities in America, the only problem is trust.

Of course, the basic structure of society would crumble if all lived by trust alone, it is necessary that many remain in their roles. We are moving towards a transition that will change this, people like me are here to help man towards that transition, but we are not yet there. If you are moved to justify the old ways, the old energy, it is better you remain with it for now. Around Matthew 6:26 it talks about bringing about this trust though, but as long as society is focused on its economics as a measure of its success, man at large is doomed.

Again, though, I question your motivation in looking towards genuine truth if you are so accepting of the way things are. Fundamentally, this search is designed to start as we see through how things are. This is the basic nature of depression, and without this the search will only be founded on curiosity, there will be no seriousness, no authenticity.

Truth only comes to those willing to bet their life for it.

Luke 17:33: "Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it."

You are trying to save the life you know, the social structure you know, yet you want to find truth.

These are not compatible endeavors.
 
Sorry, I do not care to respond to personel, unwarrented attacks ("I question your motivation in looking towards genuine truth ").

Just suffice it so say that I believe in a real, objective universe by which truth is judged. I do not believe it is acceptable to lower oneself to trivial "I believe rightly"-"you believe wrongly" discourses. Certainty is the sure sign of a improbable philosophy (A.N. Whitehead).
 
radarmark said:
Sorry, I do not care to respond to personel, unwarrented attacks ("I question your motivation in looking towards genuine truth ").

Just suffice it so say that I believe in a real, objective universe by which truth is judged. I do not believe it is acceptable to lower oneself to trivial "I believe rightly"-"you believe wrongly" discourses. Certainty is the sure sign of a improbable philosophy (A.N. Whitehead).
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Belief AS SUCH is the problem.

This is why I said to not agree with me, it is the same thing.

Both serve to cause the mind to think it knows something.

By the very nature of truth, it is not available to the mind.

The mind is just another arising within the totality of truth.

This is exactly what must be sacrificed, the notions we have of what we are.

No concept can contain life, it can only ever talk about it.

Similarly, no concept can contain truth.

No matter how high you think your idea is, it is just a mental projection.

Stop living in thoughts, see what thoughts live in.
 
Who is the person?

This is the idea of who we think we are.

We cannot be what we think we are.

That thought is contained in what we are.

Life is not personal, the person is maya.

Without this false separation, there is only life.
 
money is not a master....it is an organized system of chits for barter and to extract taxes....to some a method of evaluating status or success....

the love of money makes it your master...the use of it does not....my clothes, cars, books are not my master, simply tools to traverse the planet with fewer scrapes and bruises...
 
But ah, wil, many of my generation (true 40s born boomers) have accepted money as a master by loving it so much, IMHO. I do regret this going from hippies to yuppies, but it was not something I could control.
 
wil said:
money is not a master....it is an organized system of chits for barter and to extract taxes....to some a method of evaluating status or success....

the love of money makes it your master...the use of it does not....my clothes, cars, books are not my master, simply tools to traverse the planet with fewer scrapes and bruises...
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So you could give up everything you own this very moment?

If not, they are your master.
 
radarmark said:
But ah, wil, many of my generation (true 40s born boomers) have accepted money as a master by loving it so much, IMHO. I do regret this going from hippies to yuppies, but it was not something I could control.
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It has always been the basis of civilization.

Name a single civilization that has not tried to acquire more wealth.

The very drive to create a nation is about greed, you want power.

What is sad is I don't think man could sustain a civilization without being forced to. If he weren't forced to pay taxes, he would prefer to see everything crumble for the extra few dollars in his pocket.

Such a drastic change has to happen in this world to turn civility into paradise.
 
AdvaitaZen said:
Michael means empowered by God, God is the power itself.

What is the difference?

It is sheer foolishness to think they are two things.
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Michael means who is like GOD? The battle cry in heaven when Lucifer fell was Who is like GOD? Basically they shouted the name MICHAEL. Michael is gods first born son of the heavenly host. He is called the Prince of the Heavenly host as well as being the Prince of the people noted in scripture. Angels have powers that human beings do not. The el at the end of archangels names shows they are the gods created by god. All Archangels actual names end in el. Angels names do not end in EL but are identified as being heavenly host by the term Ang-ELs
El (deity) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
AdvaitaZen said:
It has always been the basis of civilization.

Name a single civilization that has not tried to acquire more wealth.

The very drive to create a nation is about greed, you want power.

What is sad is I don't think man could sustain a civilization without being forced to. If he weren't forced to pay taxes, he would prefer to see everything crumble for the extra few dollars in his pocket.

Such a drastic change has to happen in this world to turn civility into paradise.
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I can name a civilization that doesnt try to acquire more wealth.....the United States. We have more debt than wealth ;)
 
radarmark said:
The spectre of Christ Jesus in Daniel or Baruch has oft puzzled me. While I can accept the reading into Baruch, since it is not part of the Tanakh, Daniel is a problem. It was written down by Jews for Jews, probably in the late BCE era in response to the Seleucid razing of the Temple. Like Job, it was likely one of the final OT texts to be accepted and a teaching text (used to justify the Maqabim).

I do not see any verbiage to really justify the Fundamentalist point-of-view, the language does not support a Babylonian era composition.

However, like Revelation, it can be interpreted (because of its form) as a prophetic text... interestingly its roots are a little older than what scholars thought 100 years ago. But if Revelation is likely the esoteric version of early Christian Asia Minor, then Daniel is likely the esoteric version of Mithradates-Antiochus.

Where do you and your tradition stand on it?
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Revelation is very interesting. There are 7 seals. It is said that the 7 archangels blow their horns when the seals are opened. Gabriel is said to blow the first horn which is the conception of a heavenly being incarnated into the human egg. That is why he was the one present at christs conception and announced to Mary that she would be having JESUS. The heavenly being descends into the egg and then is sealed into and obtains a human body. Because it is a divine being the body is half heavenly being half human. This is why they called Jesus human as well as being divine. The prehuman self is sealed within that body and the miracles that happen to that body reveal it is a heavenly being incarnated into the human body but those miracles are seal openings and bindings. The openings and bindings reveal what god is and does because he is the power , the one who opens the seals. There are actually 10 seals total. That is why in the forum on gematria the name Jesus being 888 is multiplied by 10. 10 commandments, 10 seals. There is only the mention of 7 in revelation. 888 is the immortal human body ascension into heaven, the resurrected Jesus. The last two seals. 999 and 101010 occur in heaven after the body is resurrected. The 999 seal is the marriage and 101010 consummation of the marriage.
 
donnann said:
I can name a civilization that doesnt try to acquire more wealth.....the United States. We have more debt than wealth ;)
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Actually, no, the US debt total is still lower than its annual GDP.
 
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