There is beliefs then there is fact. You can believe the sky is green but the fact is its blue.
Was Jesus Michael or God?
- Thread starter donnann
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There is beliefs then there is fact. You can believe the sky is green but the fact is its blue.
Originally we were all beings that were literally love. The thought is contained in what we are. It is spirit. It is maya.
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AdvaitaZen
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Then there is truth, there is no sky.
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AdvaitaZen
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Have we somehow ceased being love?
Our love is directed in strange ways, but what act have you taken without it being founded in love? You are love, it is love which moves in you, love is the very life energy.
In a sentimental mindset, yes ... but theologically, no.
And, if you're Catholic,m so will you and I. Not quite a big a role as Michael though. But all the angels will be involved.
I would suggest, if I was speculating, that Michael will lead a host against the forces of darkness — as he did at the crucifixion — whilst the other archangels will lead the faithful into glory.
But angels are messengers, not saviours. And it's also clear that there is only one Saviour ... and no angel would claim that title. If he did, he would fall.
The message is one of salvation, and the angel will act accordingly, so the angel can be seen to 'embody' the message ... but angels are not saviours.
Michael: "Who is like unto God?" or "Who is equal to God?"
(Two things: Neither men nor angels are like God, in that nothing is quite like God, God is in a class ofg His own.
Men and angels are made 'in the image and likeness of' in that (among other things) they possess a rational nature.
Gabriel means "Man of God" or "Might of God"
He is the herald of the Mysteries of God, especially the Incarnation and all other mysteries related to it. He announced the Incarnation to Mary. He was waiting for the disciples in the empty tomb. He spoke to the apostles at the ascension — So Gabriel plays a much more important role in the Revelation of Christ than any other.
Raphael means "God's healing" or "God the Healer" (Tobit 3:17, 12:15)
Uriel means "Fire of God," or "Light of God" (II Esdras 4:1, 5:20)
Sealtiel means "Intercessor of God."
Jegudiel means "Glorifier of God."
Barachiel means "Blessing of God."
If there was just one, it would be Gabriel, for obvious reasons.
There is a strong Christian tradition, too.
Only if you don't understand plain English, or the nature of angels. In the text, the contxt is obviously rise up, and, to repeat, as it is Michael who will rise up, and angels cannot die, then it's not resurrection.
The Archangel Michael is considered to be the Guardian of the faithful and of the faith; he fights evil and heresies — and you're drifting perilously close to that line!
I still fail to see why you want to promote Michael over everyone else, including Christ. If it were not for Our Lord, Michael would be back at the barracks playing cards or whatever angels do in their spare time ...
... and that site you quote is the kind of drivel that gave 'The New Age' a bad name.
Right. Just so you know — this is pure fantasy now, and if you think yourself Catholic, you really need to examine your position, because you are now heretic.
If you don't, then it doesn't matter ... but you're still inflating Michael's importance out of all proportion.
Christ is the only-begotten Son of God.
Humans have powers that angels do not.
Ooops. So you're polytheist now! So is Baal 'a god created by god'? The pagan gods whom the prophets spoke against have 'el' in their name because it's a term that predates later theological development.
I know. It's a hang-over from early Hebrew polytheism. All deities in the region have 'el' in there somewhere, Semitic, Ugaritic ...
Who made that up?
More fantasy. This is what I dislike about much 'New Age' thinking — it just doesn't stand philosophical investigation.
No its not.
If you had done your studies, you'd be aware of the definition of Chalcedon, that Our Lord is "perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood", not some half-and-half thing, "consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood".
It's a difficult concept to grasp, I admit, but then it would be, being what it is.
It all turns on the understanding of 'hypostasis'.
I'm pretty sure we agree that the material world is, as the sages say, the place where 'the rubber hits the road'.
I don't believe that 'enlightenment' means wafting off into some numinous region of the heavens, any more than I believe paradise involves sitting on a cloud playing the harp.
I do believe the Zen aphorism, "before enlightenment, chop wood... '
God has his angels and who can tell what other beings to do His will in other parts/dimensions wherever. Our job is to sacramentalise the here and now, for Creation is a sacrament, to realise the theophany.
The idea of 'escaping the world' is, I believe, largely misinterpreted — it's about not being subject to it, but that does not mean fleeing (or hiding) from it. This running away notion is a betrayal of one's nature.
Being a Christian is like being a medico working for Médecins Sans Frontières — the idea of to bring God to where God's not (if you'll allow the rather poetic term), not abandoning to world to its own devices...
... of course, real world Christianity, like real world Buddhism or real world whatever, is far harder than the intellectualised cultic pursuits that leads people to assume an elitist mentality and some special purpose ... personally, been there, done that, I was in a cult for nearly ten years.
One can live a life, serve the state, obey the law, raise a family (if that's one's vocation), and be a saint, be enlightened, care for one's neighbour, care for the environment ... the hardest bit is that no-one will notice how illumined you are, they won't bask in your shadow or hang on your words, they'll treat you just like anyone else ...
If you look at Matthew 23, the 'acid test' is whether we did anything at all to make this world a better place to live in.
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
"... of course, real world Christianity, like real world Buddhism or real world whatever, is far harder than the intellectualised cultic pursuits that leads people to assume an elitist mentality and some special purpose ... personally, been there, done that, I was in a cult for nearly ten years.
One can live a life, serve the state, obey the law, raise a family (if that's one's vocation), and be a saint, be enlightened, care for one's neighbour, care for the environment ... the hardest bit is that no-one will notice how illumined you are, they won't bask in your shadow or hang on your words, they'll treat you just like anyone else ..."
Of course. One can leave a life of love in the world, with the connections. It is just very hard. But then one must deal with the "other masters". In Western, as well as Eastern tradition there is a long (and more than occasionally bloody) tradition (from the Prophets to the early Church martyrs to the Boston Martyrs to Sadat and Rabin). And so it goes.
It is just that most people do not have the faith and intestinal fortitude to choose the hard path. For them, monkhood in the Himalayas is the only way, perhaps. I merely pray that is not true of myself.
One can live a life, serve the state, obey the law, raise a family (if that's one's vocation), and be a saint, be enlightened, care for one's neighbour, care for the environment ... the hardest bit is that no-one will notice how illumined you are, they won't bask in your shadow or hang on your words, they'll treat you just like anyone else ..."
Of course. One can leave a life of love in the world, with the connections. It is just very hard. But then one must deal with the "other masters". In Western, as well as Eastern tradition there is a long (and more than occasionally bloody) tradition (from the Prophets to the early Church martyrs to the Boston Martyrs to Sadat and Rabin). And so it goes.
It is just that most people do not have the faith and intestinal fortitude to choose the hard path. For them, monkhood in the Himalayas is the only way, perhaps. I merely pray that is not true of myself.
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Psalms 82:6 and I am not a heritic. The heavenly kingdom was created before the earthly kingdom. Michael is the first created son of that kingdom. I talked to a priest some years back. The priest in charge of the church was listening. When I came out of the room I was talking to the priest in the head priest replied. "you just gave him a bishops education in one hour and he just got out of seminary" I said the same things I say here. The earthly kingdom was created in the image and likeness of the heavenly kingdom but in reverse order ending with adam and eve. Adam is in gods image but so is Michael. I am not saying Adam was Michael. Heavenly beings are much much bigger than human beings. They consist of more light. They also have wings. What I am saying is catholic and is tought in advanced studies. If a priest thinks that I am highly educated what makes you think I would take you calling me a heritic in relation to being a catholic seriously. I simply stated the truth. For some reason you have a problem with it but do not judge me on what I say.For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Matthew 7:2. I am not calling you names for things you say and I would appreciate the same courtesy in return.
A Cup Of Tea
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One priests personal opinion isn't a stamp of credibility for most people, I'm still looking for reliable sources before I even consider anything you state. What you say is simply to bizarre.
I know you consider your links as references, but they are simply unreliable, anyone can post anything on the internet.
I know you consider your links as references, but they are simply unreliable, anyone can post anything on the internet.
Yes love is the life energy. In the beginning the human race , the whole universe for that matter, were one with the soul and spirit. The body is like the skin and contains within it , sealed away the soul essence. The body is the senses part and love, compassion ect can be felt on this level but the soul essence is only felt when your made one with it. It is multicolored light that is a pattern that is different for each individual. If you were one with it you would be a resurrected body. When people enter the kingdom of heaven they will be made one with the spirit(that is love) soul (that is love). All good essences come from love. compassion, kindness ect.
e Prayer to Saint Michael is a prayer, used mainly by Catholics, which is addressed to Michael the archangel. Pope Leo XIII added it in 1886[1] to the Leonine Prayers, which he had directed to be said after Low Mass two years earlier.[2] The practice of reciting these prayers after Mass was suppressed in 1964. However, Pope John Paul II referred to the St Michael prayer in his Regina Coeli address of 24 April 1994 as follows:
"May prayer strengthen us for the spiritual battle that the Letter to the Ephesians speaks of: 'Be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might' (Ephesians 6:10). The Book of Revelation refers to this same battle, recalling before our eyes the image of St Michael the Archangel (cf. Revelation 12:7). Pope Leo XIII certainly had this picture in mind when, at the end of the last century, he brought in, throughout the Church, a special prayer to St Michael: 'Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil...' Although this prayer is no longer recited at the end of Mass, I ask everyone not to forget it and to recite it to obtain help in the battle against the forces of darkness and against the spirit of this world."[3]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_to_Saint_Michael
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_to_Saint_Michael#cite_note-3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_to_Saint_Michael#cite_note-3
Thus Catholics believe that Jesus is a single person, and that the human and divine in Jesus are fully and completely united, not divided in any way. When Jesus healed, both the human and divine nature in Jesus healed.Who is Jesus?: The Catholic Understanding of Jesus Christ
this is not new age thinking but is the ancient of days. As you can see what I said is clearly backed up by catholic belief. It clearly states that Jesus had not only a divine nature but also human as well. When he incarnated he took on a human body. The conception of that body involved the divine prehuman jesus descending into the egg and then it being sealed. This conception made the human body divine as well as human. What do you think the trinity is all about?
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AdvaitaZen
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You speak of theory, making it something absurd.
You are already one, there cannot be two in the very nature of existence.
Many things can happen in consciousness, that isn't the point.
For whom does all in consciousness arise?
You should stop talking as if you know something great, you are too full of theories, too full of imagination. Enlightenment is simply seeing what has always been the case, the only change is in perspective.
You no more take the mind seriously, it is just another thing arising in the now. The body is no more something important, it is just a tool that allows you to navigate the world, to interact here. Nothing takes precedence over anything exactly because all is one, and all is you.
The problem is we take only the ego identifications to be ourselves, we utterly ignore the world around us, ignorant that all of this too is us. If we are honest, we know it cannot be otherwise, even when we hear of more to existence it is simply arising in our consciousness here and now, same with the past, it too arises here for us. We think that travelling to some other place means the world is larger, but our consciousness stays the same, it is only the contents that has changed. They change too along the spiritual journey, but still consciousness itself is untouched, still awareness of the contents is unaffected.
Enlightenment is about true sanity, your words echo of insanity.
Find out what is constant - unchanging and unmanifest, yet ever there in the background, creating the coherence of experience despite everything else constantly changing - that is what you are, all else is arising in you, from you, and dissolves back into you. Do not get stuck in appearances, in imagination, see instead what is real by tracing everything back to their source. That source is truth, all else is illusion.
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AdvaitaZen
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The problem is that all our religious study, all the ideas we take on, we project them into the future. We want some idealized reality in some distant time - in Christian thought called heaven.
Drop all of this projecting, for it is what is causing you to not see the paradise already here.
Comparing the real to the false, the false will always win, because it is based on how to improve - in your mind - what is already the case. This is idiotic, just drop the comparison and see what is missing.
This world is absolutely perfect, but your mind won't accept it. It can't see that everything here is absolutely necessary, we want to pretend we know better, to say what should and shouldn't be, but we cannot see the whole picture.
Yet, the idea we have of perfection, that is what causes our suffering, for it is impossible. We know it is impossible here, though, so we say it is possible somewhere else. Now we live our lives looking forward to the day our projection is realized, upon death. We think negatively about this place by this comparison, we reject this world because it is temporary, so much foolishness comes because of this.
There is no where else but here.
Drop all of this projecting, for it is what is causing you to not see the paradise already here.
Comparing the real to the false, the false will always win, because it is based on how to improve - in your mind - what is already the case. This is idiotic, just drop the comparison and see what is missing.
This world is absolutely perfect, but your mind won't accept it. It can't see that everything here is absolutely necessary, we want to pretend we know better, to say what should and shouldn't be, but we cannot see the whole picture.
Yet, the idea we have of perfection, that is what causes our suffering, for it is impossible. We know it is impossible here, though, so we say it is possible somewhere else. Now we live our lives looking forward to the day our projection is realized, upon death. We think negatively about this place by this comparison, we reject this world because it is temporary, so much foolishness comes because of this.
There is no where else but here.
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AdvaitaZen
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Heaven and hell are simply states of mind, the result of our projections.
If we see this world as good as it is, we are living in heaven, if we say the world is bad as it is, we are in hell. We create both, for if we decide the world is good, we only see the good, and if we say it is bad we will only see the bad. These beliefs are self-serving, self-confirming.
Drop all of this and just see the beauty of life.
Attempting to make this place a paradise based on our own ideas of perfection, that is how wars happen. That is the only possible outcome of trying to create our idea, for it will not be everyones ideal, it cannot be because it is based on your thoughts, your idea about life.
It is because existence always seeks balance, thus will counteract any push towards a particular direction - like the pendulum, its whole momentum is only to take it back the other way.
Peace comes when the pendulum stops.
If we see this world as good as it is, we are living in heaven, if we say the world is bad as it is, we are in hell. We create both, for if we decide the world is good, we only see the good, and if we say it is bad we will only see the bad. These beliefs are self-serving, self-confirming.
Drop all of this and just see the beauty of life.
Attempting to make this place a paradise based on our own ideas of perfection, that is how wars happen. That is the only possible outcome of trying to create our idea, for it will not be everyones ideal, it cannot be because it is based on your thoughts, your idea about life.
It is because existence always seeks balance, thus will counteract any push towards a particular direction - like the pendulum, its whole momentum is only to take it back the other way.
Peace comes when the pendulum stops.
If the body isnt important then what point would the resurrection of Jesus have? So now I am also insane? That is not very nice. GOD is the source and love is what we all really are being in gods image. GOD is love.
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AdvaitaZen
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The resurrection speaks to mans fear of death, it says we can overcome death.
What is interesting is in the oldest gospels, it simply didn't happen, we leave Jesus on the cross, dead...
It seems to be something added later.
This seems to be what man does to all spiritual figures, create something outlandish to prove he is special.
Just more imaginings that serve no purpose in reality.
Again, "Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it."
It is in letting go of all that can die that we see what is truly alive.
That which remains was never born, so is not subject to death.
To give the Christians the benefit of the doubt - rather than accusing them of simply preying on the fear and gullibility of the masses - I see the crucifixion and resurrection as purely symbolic of this Bible quote.
Jesus suffered on the cross because he wanted to live, thus saying "why hast thou forsaken me", but once he sees the point, that he is not the body, suddenly his tone changes, now he says "in your hands I commit my spirit". He has accepted death of the body, for what he is cannot die.
This is the true moment of his enlightenment.
We too must find within ourselves that which doesn't die, that is salvation.
Yet, it doesn't die because it isn't alive, it is the source of life yet non-existent in the manifest world.
This is why the religions can't agree, there are a million ways to come to this.
Yet nothing can be said directly about it, for there is nothing there to speak of.
It is just empty, void, no-thing-ness.
Yet upon returning to the world, there is a new vitality.