What's so good about reincarnation?

Gordian Knot said:
Thank you Tea, though I'm not sure what reputation you could give me. I give me my own, not always to my benefit. lol.
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Wait, aren't you aware of the rep. system of this site? Don't you live and die by the green dot's under your avatar? Sometimes I feel like I don't know you any more...
 
The purpose of many lives is to learn how to avoid suffering, the causes of suffering, to oneself and others and gain thusly wisdom, while promoting harmony or justice.

Here is Plato giving the Vision of Er - what happens after death and before the next lifetime, according to the ancient Greeks:

"The Vision of Er" by Plato

An excerpt regarding our choosing the nature of our next lifetime, and the wisdom & virtue needed to choose well.

And here, my dear Glaucon, is the supreme peril of our human state; and therefore the utmost care should be taken. Let each one of us leave every other kind of knowledge and seek and follow one thing only, if peradventure he may be able to learn and may find some one who will make him able to learn and discern between good and evil, and so to choose always and everywhere the better life as he has opportunity.
He should consider the bearing of all these things which have been mentioned severally and collectively upon virtue; he should know what the effect of beauty is when combined with poverty or wealth in a particular soul, and what are the good and evil consequences of noble and humble birth, of private and public station, of strength and weakness, of cleverness and dullness, and of all the natural and acquired gifts of the soul, and the operation of them when conjoined. He will then look at the nature of the soul, and from the consideration of all these qualities he will be able to determine which is the better and which is the worse.
And so he will choose, giving the name of evil to the life which will make his soul more unjust, and good to the life which will make his soul more just; all else he will disregard. For we have seen and know that this is the best choice both in life and after death.
A man must take with him into the world below an adamantine faith in truth and right, that there too he may be undazzled by the desire of wealth or the other allurements of evil, lest, coming upon tyrannies and similar villainies, he do irremediable wrongs to others and suffer yet worse himself; but let him know how to choose the middle way and avoid the extremes on either side, as far as possible, not only in this life but in all that which is to come. For this is the way of happiness.
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wil said:
The good brain exercise? Let us solve racism, poverty, hunger, homelessness....these all affect the living...and if there is any kind of justice and here after are the type of actions that will be rewarded....contemplating the nature of our navel...not so much.
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I want to do something for the living. I'm trying to understand the concept of God and the afterlife more clearly, so I can promote them when I go back to Japan. Most Japanese are very conscientious, very good people, but our current/young culture not having a strong sense of the Divine, people tend to succumb to materialism, tend to judge themselves by how successful they are in the society. So, when they feel like they failed in the eyes of the society, many go into deep depression and the worst could happen. I have two cousins who suffer from recurring depression.

So, I'm thinking, spirituality could be the key to give hope to those who are lost and reduce the high suicide rate in Japan. That's what motivates me to learn more about religions now. I want to find a belief system that I can believe in with confidence (that's why I ask so many questions), so I can tell people about it with confidence and hopefully use it as a vehicle to save some people from a materialistic way of judging themselves and others. I'm not gonna worry about people who are doing fine without having the concept of God. But maybe I can reach out to the people who are in despair and give them the good news that God loves them.

Tad
 
If they reject the divine whole heartedly, you could show them some stoicism at least.
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
If they reject the divine whole heartedly, you could show them some stoicism at least.
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The Stoics have God or the Divine, just their own type of God.

From Stanford Ency. online:

In accord with this ontology, the Stoics, like the Epicureans, make God a corporeal entity, though not (as with the Epicureans) one made of everyday matter. But while the Epicureans think the gods are too busy being blessed and happy to be bothered with the governance of the universe (Epicurus, Letter to Menoeceus 123–4), the Stoic God is immanent throughout the whole of creation and directs its development down to the smallest detail. God is identical with one of the two ungenerated and indestructible first principles (archai) of the universe. One principle is matter which they regard as utterly unqualified and inert. It is that which is acted upon. God is identified with an eternal reason (logos, Diog. Laert. 44B ) or intelligent designing fire (Aetius, 46A) which structures matter in accordance with Its plan. This plan is enacted time and time again, beginning from a state in which all is fire, through the generation of the elements, to the creation of the world we are familiar with, and eventually back to fire in a cycle of endless recurrence. The designing fire of the conflagration is likened to a sperm which contains the principles or stories of all the things which will subsequently develop (Aristocles in Eusebius, 46G). Under this guise, God is also called ‘fate.’ It is important to realise that the Stoic God does not craft its world in accordance with its plan from the outside, as the demiurge in Plato's Timaeus is described as doing. Rather, the history of the universe is determined by God's activity internal to it, shaping it with its differentiated characteristics. The biological conception of God as a kind of living heat or seed from which things grow seems to be fully intended. The further identification of God with pneuma or breath may have its origins in medical theories of the Hellenistic period. See Baltzly (2003).
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Tadashi said:
I want to do something for the living. I'm trying to understand the concept of God and the afterlife more clearly, so I can promote them when I go back to Japan. Most Japanese are very conscientious, very good people, but our current/young culture not having a strong sense of the Divine, people tend to succumb to materialism, tend to judge themselves by how successful they are in the society. So, when they feel like they failed in the eyes of the society, many go into deep depression and the worst could happen. I have two cousins who suffer from recurring depression.

So, I'm thinking, spirituality could be the key to give hope to those who are lost and reduce the high suicide rate in Japan. That's what motivates me to learn more about religions now. I want to find a belief system that I can believe in with confidence (that's why I ask so many questions), so I can tell people about it with confidence and hopefully use it as a vehicle to save some people from a materialistic way of judging themselves and others. I'm not gonna worry about people who are doing fine without having the concept of God. But maybe I can reach out to the people who are in despair and give them the good news that God loves them.

Tad
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Indeed, spirituality might be instrumental in healing the wounds of Japanese society, but as with all cultures, the subject is complex.
As I understand it, Karoshi is such a problem in Japan that there are organizations dedicated to dealing with the problem. Stress and overwork can kill and the reasons behind the problem are biological, social, and psychological. Understanding the biopsychosocial approach takes some study, but I believe you are capable of it. Good luck to you, and thanks for being the kind of person who cares deeply for others.
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
If they reject the divine whole heartedly, you could show them some stoicism at least.
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Agreed. I also think ancient philosophies were created in search for the Truth of the Divine. (Skull beat me to the punch! Thank you for the good reading material.)

Zeno of Citium is said to have taught, the Universe is God, a divine reasoning entity, where all the parts belong to the whole. (I wonder if he was a pantheist...) I'm not really a pantheist myself (or I don't even really know if I fully comprehend what pantheism is), but I sometimes wonder that the universe itself may be the supreme conscious energy (thus, God), kind of similar to the idea of Gaia philosophy (but the whole universe version) and we all are an integral part of this divine consciousness.

Tad
 
Paladin said:
Indeed, spirituality might be instrumental in healing the wounds of Japanese society, but as with all cultures, the subject is complex.
As I understand it, Karoshi is such a problem in Japan that there are organizations dedicated to dealing with the problem. Stress and overwork can kill and the reasons behind the problem are biological, social, and psychological. Understanding the biopsychosocial approach takes some study, but I believe you are capable of it. Good luck to you, and thanks for being the kind of person who cares deeply for others.
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Paladin, Thank you very much for your heartfelt reply. Yes, karoushi is a big problem in Japan... In our culture, workers who willingly do overtime without compensation (extra pay or a day off) have been considered a loyal worker and often get rewarded with a promotion. Showing that you're tired, especially among men, even when you're physically exhausted, is viewed as a sign of weakness, thus discouraged. (This could be reminiscent of bushido mentality.)

As you suggest, I should study sociology holistically to approach the problems of this stress-stricken society. I just hope I can give people a glimpse of a different worldview (that it's not all about getting ahead in the material world), something about the spiritual connection we all feel more or less, and find our worth through the mind of something bigger (the universe and the divine) than us...

Tad
 
Tadashi said:
Agreed. I also think ancient philosophies were created in search for the Truth of the Divine. (Skull beat me to the punch! Thank you for the good reading material.)

Zeno of Citium is said to have taught, the Universe is God, a divine reasoning entity, where all the parts belong to the whole. (I wonder if he was a pantheist...) I'm not really a pantheist myself (or I don't even really know if I fully comprehend what pantheism is), but I sometimes wonder that the universe itself may be the supreme conscious energy (thus, God), kind of similar to the idea of Gaia philosophy (but the whole universe version) and we all are an integral part of this divine consciousness.

Tad
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Sure, but the reason to act correctly, as a stoic, is entirely separate from anything divine. And stoics have had very different views on what the divine might be I'm sure several have discounted their importance all together. All I'm saying is that even atheist can find meaning in their lives, we all need different medicine.
 
Tad, your idea of the importance of having confidence in the Divine within is universal in its power. Call it our True Nature or Higher Self if some people are so secularized that the word 'divine' makes them uncomfortable.

Katherine Tingley, a theosophist, considered that notion critical to the eventual salvation of humanity.
 
Tad, you said,

"..maybe I can reach out to the people who are in despair and give them the good news that God loves them."

--> Do you plan to preach and proselytize Christianity?
 
Nick the Pilot said:
Tad, you said,

"..maybe I can reach out to the people who are in despair and give them the good news that God loves them."

--> Do you plan to preach and proselytize Christianity?
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No. I have no interest in converting people to any one religion. I just want to introduce the concept of God to people (especially those who are feeling lost in the material world), and, as a Pluralist, my God does not belong to one particular religion.

I may talk about morals, love and forgiveness Jesus taught us to practice, but you know me, I'm not in compliance with the Christian tenets, so I'm not qualified to promote Christianity anyway. What I want to promote is a worldview that would counter materialism, that there's another dimension to the reality where spirituality rules and people can find happiness there.

Tad
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
Sure, but the reason to act correctly, as a stoic, is entirely separate from anything divine. And stoics have had very different views on what the divine might be I'm sure several have discounted their importance all together. All I'm saying is that even atheist can find meaning in their lives, we all need different medicine.
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Skull is right (feels like he read my mind), I was thinking the same thing that I should perhaps rephrase the word 'God' to something else.

Forgive me ACOT, I keep forgetting how agnostics/atheists process the word 'God/the Divine' even though I was an agnostic myself not so long ago and the word back then conjured exactly the image you may be picturing.

May be I should put it this way... it's not so much that I really discovered God per se, but I finally understood what God means (in my own way)... I know it's still not a clear enough answer, I wish I had a better way of expressing my thoughts...

In my view, how one calls himself (theist or atheist) totally depends on what one conceives God as. No one, I don't think at this time of age, would imagine God as the bearded man in the sky (that He has a human figure), so, who, better yet, 'what' is God...? When people call themselves atheists, I feel that they mostly mean they don't buy into any of gods/deities that have ever been depicted in any religions in the human history, and if so, I totally get that.

You know, my realization of God is not initially through a religion, but psychology. I think most people on earth, I mean, good-hearted people, believe in the 'goodness of mankind' and 'humanity' we embrace. How about if I say that's what I believe as God, or as Skull suggested, our True Nature or Higher Self... can you relate to it better that way? When you say "the reason to act correctly", I'd assume you're talking about 'act correctly' reflecting on the obligation we all have to humanity, am I right? So, we are essentially believing in the same thing, in my view.

I think nonbelievers suppose that our humanity (as in being humane) comes from a naturalistic process (such as evolution), therefore no need to invoke God, but when I think about the way we developed our morality, how our conscience works, there are many aspects of it that cannot be satisfactorily explained by biology alone. This is what theists call 'moral argument' (you can google the phrase and many links will come up). This argument is what dramatically changed my worldview and how I ultimately arrived at the realization of a higher power or the law giver. (I'll tell you more about it sometime in the future, since it'll be a long and exhaustive conversation if I go into detail.)

This realization got me curious about religions and when I learned the life and teachings of Jesus, it concretely affirmed my realization and turned it to a conviction. Jesus delivered the Truth I had been seeking for. He sealed the deal for me. I strongly feel we are guided by a 'mysterious force', something like an invisible Sun that nourish our minds and souls, which is what Jesus called heavenly Father and what I call the 'Will of the universe' or 'cosmic conscience' or 'divine consciousness'. It doesn't matter what we call it really, but I just use the word 'God' to address it, because it's just easy and simple and I so love the sound of it (and much less typing too:p ).

Sorry, I may sound like I'm babbling again... I totally agree with you that each person needs a different medicine, and one doesn't have to recognize himself as a theist to find a purpose in his life. But I think all good people in the world uphold humanity (humanity is the universal medicine), only the difference is where we think it comes from... and that difference doesn't matter to me much, as long as we can all unite under this sublimity of our 'humanity'.


Tad

P.S. I apologize for another long-winded post unrelated to the topic of this thread...
 
Tadashi said "When people call themselves atheists, I feel that they mostly mean they don't buy into any of gods/deities that have ever been depicted in any religions in the human history"

No I don't think so Tad. It's not just that Atheists don't believe in any that have been represented thru-out history. It goes further than that. Atheists don't believe in any deity of any kind at all.
 
Hi Gordian Knot,

I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply all atheists and I did not mean to state it as a fact... the key words being, 'I feel' and 'mostly'. But I should've stated it in a better way to avoid the impression of generalization.

I was more speaking from my experience that atheists I have talked with online and in person were more like anti-religionists, or non-theists, but many were open to the idea of deism, or at least not antagonistic to it. But again, of course I have not talked to all atheists, so I apologize for my hasty statement and poor writing. :eek:

Tad
 
If you have spoken with atheists who are open to theism, then it is I who must apologize to you! That is not a concept that I have come across. But then I also was speaking from my experience and should not have made the definitive statement for all atheists. So my bad, too!
 
Hi GK,

The people I talked to were mostly open to 'deism', not 'theism'. (They are adamant that I don't mix them. haha...) So, they don't believe in 'a personal god' who responds to individuals' prayers for example, but they were not completely closed to the idea of a 'force' or 'energy' that may exist (or may have existed) in the universe...

No, it was my bad, if someone described 'theists' in only one way, I may have objected too.

Tad
 
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