Yup, but never with tears. I've cried because I was sad, someones death, of joy, of happiness, of compassion, of amazement....but no tears for anger...don't know what that would be like.
God for atheists, agnostics, doubters, religious humanists and others
- Thread starter Marcialou
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LincolnSpector
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You're welcome.
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Shibolet
Guest
That's great! I find attractive the idea of an atheist who obviously does not believe in the Primal Cause to use a term from the Classic Philosophers but that is not alien to spirituality.
Don't worry Marcialou because I am not going to try to prove to you the existence of God from the religious point of view but Logic based on Physics if that be possible.
Here is a syllogism:
First premise: The universe is composed of matter and I hope you won't deny it.
Second premise: Matter cannot cause itself to exist and I am sure you won't try to refute that.
Resultant premise: Therefore, the universe was caused to exist. Here, my question is: What could have caused the universe to exist if not some thing of the "size" of the Primal Cause?
As you have seen, this is an attempt to demonstrate the ultimate evidence for the existence of God, though not from the religious point of view but Logic. What is your taking of the idea?
you do not use your intellect unless you are seeking God just by reading it. but by expieriencing the Holy spirit.who gives insights.
A Cup Of Tea
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This has already been under question in other parts of the forum, you should defend that point..
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Shibolet
Guest
Yeah COT, be my guest! As I said, "Matter cannot cause itself to exist." Why? Because, for matter to cause itself to exist, it must exist to do so. Since it already exists, there is no need to cause itself to exist. That's Logic and there is no other way to spell it.
Gordian Knot
Being Deviant IS My Art.
I believe Tea is referring to this statement by me from another thread where I posit that matter might be able to cause itself to exist spontaneously. You never responded; or maybe you never saw it. This is the post Tea wanted you to reply to. And I am very interested in your answer as well!
I have edited it down for sake of clarity in this thread.
My Post
Shib. You have made a determination that 'the universe could not have caused itself to exist'. Your determination is based on lack of knowledge, or faulty knowledge.
Bizarre as it may sound, in quantum physics, subatomic particles seem to be able to pop into existence out of nothing. They do not exist, then they do. In theory therefor, it is not impossible for the universe to pop into existence from nothing with the Big Bang.
No one is saying that IS what happened. Cosmologists are saying it is a possibility. That it doesn't seem to make any sense is not the fault of the cosmos. There are many things that don't make any sense that are never the less proven to be true.
If QP is correct, that is proof that matter can come from nothing.
Matter may not have to exist to cause itself to exist. Your certainty to the contrary is not so certain.
I have edited it down for sake of clarity in this thread.
My Post
Shib. You have made a determination that 'the universe could not have caused itself to exist'. Your determination is based on lack of knowledge, or faulty knowledge.
Bizarre as it may sound, in quantum physics, subatomic particles seem to be able to pop into existence out of nothing. They do not exist, then they do. In theory therefor, it is not impossible for the universe to pop into existence from nothing with the Big Bang.
No one is saying that IS what happened. Cosmologists are saying it is a possibility. That it doesn't seem to make any sense is not the fault of the cosmos. There are many things that don't make any sense that are never the less proven to be true.
If QP is correct, that is proof that matter can come from nothing.
Matter may not have to exist to cause itself to exist. Your certainty to the contrary is not so certain.
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Shibolet
Guest
Gordian, sorry to have to say this but, you either do not understand much about Logic or you prefer to believe in magic. I have not determined any thing. I have used Logic to spell the truth that some thing cannot cause itself to exist. I have explained to you how and you insist on holding your standing against Logic.
Matter cannot cause itself to exist. It is not a case of being able. It just cannot. It breaks all rules of Logic. Read again my explanation above. Your "seems to be able" is not the answer to any thing whatsoever. You either know it does or you don't. "It seems to" is only verbal juggling that means nothing.
And as quantum Physics is concerned, do you want to know what Einstein said about quantum mechanics? That he would not be caught wasting his time with balderdash. Some thing like that in his book "Out of My Later Years."
I don't like theories because they are akin to guesses. The truth cannot be taught through guesses.
A Cup Of Tea
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If you're not interested in the latest advances in science perhaps you should stay away from the topic of matter? Keep to the metaphysics and abstract logic, you seems to be more your thing.
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Shibolet
Guest
Now, you want me to stay away from Science. First it was from Christian forums and now from Science. I am already wondering what next I am to stay away from. To both I am bringing salvation. To Christians from the ignorance of faith and to atheists from that of Logic. I know you don't like to read the Bible but, I would like to remind you that Jesus said that salvation comes from the Jews. (John 4:22)
A Cup Of Tea
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Only because you don't seem, as I said, interested in the latest advances in science. I thought that was a natural choice. You don't see my reasoning?
We know you're really comfortable in the confrontational, but I thought it was clear that I'm not really interested in that. I never asked you to leave anywhere, and I'm still interested in where you got that so we can clear that up.
The first part makes you sound like one of the many prophets that come here from time to time. If you consider yourself one it would be really good if identified yourself as one.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
Oh yes. I am a staunch Hindu and a strong atheist (How is that possible? I follow the non-dual philosophy of 'advaita'). I take Hindu Gods and Goddesses as characters of stories created to show the right way to live.
No prophet studied or need to study science. Bible (and Qur'an if one is a Muslim) are more than enough.
Gordian Knot
Being Deviant IS My Art.
Okay Shib,
I know this is pointless. What can I say. I'm a glutton for punishment. Your concept of logic is interesting to say the least.
You start out with your conclusion. Matter cannot cause itself to exist.
Why?
Because it just cannot. Well that is certainly not very explanatory.
It just cannot because it breaks all the rules of logic. Whose logic? Yours apparently. What makes your logic superior to anyone else's?
And you don't like theories; they are akin to guesses. Well that is not the definition of a theory. But perhaps you have your own personal definition of 'theory' as well?
Could you point me to that quote by Einstein? "That he would not be caught wasting his time with balderdash". I really rather doubt he said that. I'm willing to be proven wrong though, so please. If you would.
Finally you say The truth cannot be taught through guesses. No. The truth can be found through guesses though. How else can the truth be found? Does it just lodge itself in the minds of a select few who are blessed with this ability?
How do you find truth? I am being sincere. It would be of interest to me to understand how that process works for you.
I know this is pointless. What can I say. I'm a glutton for punishment. Your concept of logic is interesting to say the least.
You start out with your conclusion. Matter cannot cause itself to exist.
Why?
Because it just cannot. Well that is certainly not very explanatory.
It just cannot because it breaks all the rules of logic. Whose logic? Yours apparently. What makes your logic superior to anyone else's?
And you don't like theories; they are akin to guesses. Well that is not the definition of a theory. But perhaps you have your own personal definition of 'theory' as well?
Could you point me to that quote by Einstein? "That he would not be caught wasting his time with balderdash". I really rather doubt he said that. I'm willing to be proven wrong though, so please. If you would.
Finally you say The truth cannot be taught through guesses. No. The truth can be found through guesses though. How else can the truth be found? Does it just lodge itself in the minds of a select few who are blessed with this ability?
How do you find truth? I am being sincere. It would be of interest to me to understand how that process works for you.
Marcialou
We are stardust
Would you please explain the non-dual philosophy of 'advaita', in simple terms if you can.
Thanks.
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Shibolet
Guest
What makes me not too interested in what you call "latest advances in Science" is that no one so far has been able to tell me some thing that makes sense.
About the controversial, I remember you to have said, you are not interested. I also remember to have told you to ignore my posts. But somehow, it seems to me, you can't. If you want me to ignore you, I'll respect your wish.
About identifying myself as a prophet, thank you but no, thanks. The prophetic system ceased to exist in Israel since the return of the Jews from exile in Babylon. (Dan. 9:24) Since then, there has never been a prophet in Israel. Any one with that claim is a charlatan akin to a false prophet.
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Shibolet
Guest
Why is this? Did G!d decide talking to man was no longer working?
did the phone lines get knocked down in a storm?
Gordian Knot
Being Deviant IS My Art.
Shibolet said "What makes me not too interested in what you call "latest advances in Science" is that no one so far has been able to tell me some thing that makes sense."
No. No one has been able to tell you something that makes sense to you. Which would be a difficult chore to accomplish as you have already made up your mind what makes sense versus what does not.
Shibolet said "Here is why matter cannot cause itself to exist: For matter to cause itself to exist, it must exist to do so. Since it already exists, it goes without saying that it does not need to do that job. That's Logic and there is no other way to spell it."
That is your version of logic at work again. Your entire statement is the classic version of circular reasoning. How do you know for an absolute, irrefutable fact that matter cannot cause itself to exist? You can't. And you dismiss out of hand any theories that show matter might indeed be able to can cause itself to exist. Why? Because you have already made up your mind on the issue. You believe matter cannot cause itself to exist, therefor matter cannot cause itself to exist.
Shibolet said "Logic is like the Truth. There is just one and there is no other way to handle it..."
There is not just one Truth. There are many truths. And logic has nothing to do with the truth. Logic is a process to arrive at conclusions.
Shibolet said "Can you prove a theory to be a fact? No, you can't."
Of course I can. I can prove hundreds of theories to be fact. Let's take a wild one just for fun. A real science fiction one. There is a theory that there is this stuff called anti-matter, which has the exact opposite charges in it's atoms from normal matter. It has long been theorized that this opposite matter exists, but we did not have the technology to know for sure until relatively recently. Now we do and that is a theory that is now a fact.
Have you ever heard of, or had a PET scan? It is an imaging process to scan the brain. Do you know how it works? The machine fires tiny amounts of anti-matter into your head; catches the resulting places where that anti-matter hits matter and annihilates both. The result is gamma rays which is what the machine tracts to perform its imaging.
A guess became a theory that became a fact.
Shibolet said "The Truth can be found through esoteric research based on the Scriptures tested by behavior according to the Law and the Prophets."
Well one truth may be found this way. It is hardly the only truth. And this is why we are so far apart in the way we think. You have determined that there is but one truth. You have determined that your one truth can only be found by esoteric research on Scripture. These are determinations you have chosen to be the only truths. You made that choice.
And if you were on this site saying that this was what your truth was, I would be fine with that. You are not. You are here telling all the rest of us your truth is the only truth for everyone. With that I am not fine at all.
No. No one has been able to tell you something that makes sense to you. Which would be a difficult chore to accomplish as you have already made up your mind what makes sense versus what does not.
Shibolet said "Here is why matter cannot cause itself to exist: For matter to cause itself to exist, it must exist to do so. Since it already exists, it goes without saying that it does not need to do that job. That's Logic and there is no other way to spell it."
That is your version of logic at work again. Your entire statement is the classic version of circular reasoning. How do you know for an absolute, irrefutable fact that matter cannot cause itself to exist? You can't. And you dismiss out of hand any theories that show matter might indeed be able to can cause itself to exist. Why? Because you have already made up your mind on the issue. You believe matter cannot cause itself to exist, therefor matter cannot cause itself to exist.
Shibolet said "Logic is like the Truth. There is just one and there is no other way to handle it..."
There is not just one Truth. There are many truths. And logic has nothing to do with the truth. Logic is a process to arrive at conclusions.
Shibolet said "Can you prove a theory to be a fact? No, you can't."
Of course I can. I can prove hundreds of theories to be fact. Let's take a wild one just for fun. A real science fiction one. There is a theory that there is this stuff called anti-matter, which has the exact opposite charges in it's atoms from normal matter. It has long been theorized that this opposite matter exists, but we did not have the technology to know for sure until relatively recently. Now we do and that is a theory that is now a fact.
Have you ever heard of, or had a PET scan? It is an imaging process to scan the brain. Do you know how it works? The machine fires tiny amounts of anti-matter into your head; catches the resulting places where that anti-matter hits matter and annihilates both. The result is gamma rays which is what the machine tracts to perform its imaging.
A guess became a theory that became a fact.
Shibolet said "The Truth can be found through esoteric research based on the Scriptures tested by behavior according to the Law and the Prophets."
Well one truth may be found this way. It is hardly the only truth. And this is why we are so far apart in the way we think. You have determined that there is but one truth. You have determined that your one truth can only be found by esoteric research on Scripture. These are determinations you have chosen to be the only truths. You made that choice.
And if you were on this site saying that this was what your truth was, I would be fine with that. You are not. You are here telling all the rest of us your truth is the only truth for everyone. With that I am not fine at all.
S
Shibolet
Guest
No, and you don't need to joke on that because I can show you the evidence why the Lord no longer needs prophets to reveal His will to man through. Now, we have the printed Scriptures thanks to Ezra, the most famous Scribe in the History of Israel who codified the Tanach in a form available to all. (Jer. 31:34; Deut. 30:11-14)